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I worked on a project at Sybase that attempted to rewrite the Sybase SQL Server using VM-based technologies. We looked at Smalltalk early on but found a number

I worked on a project at Sybase that attempted to rewrite the Sybase SQL Server using VM-based technologies. We looked at Smalltalk early on but found a number of problems. They included slow execution speed (there was no JIT), lack of static typing (hard for maintenance), and difficulty to strip the VM environment to create an efficient runtime. Finally it had very limited ability to manage storage and memory directly. Without these it's difficult to build fast database systems. Sybase tried to acquire a Smalltalk vendor in order to fix the VM problems but could not reach a deal so we ended up moving to other technologies. When Java came along we felt it was the language we had been looking for even with the early performance problems.

fulafel 6y ago
What happened then, did it get rewritten in Java?
- hodgesrm 6y ago
  No, the project got cancelled before Java showed up. Sybase pretty much went down the tubes after that as a major DBMS vendor. Not because our project failed, but because Sybase had a dud release in 1993 named System 10 that had serious quality problems and tanked sales.
  - e12e 6y ago
    Heh, so that's just after the split of what became ms sql server on the Microsoft side. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybase https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybase > 1993: Sybase and Microsoft dissolve their partnership. Microsoft receives a copy of the SQL Server code base. (...) Sybase SQL Server version 4.2 and Microsoft SQL Server are identical. (...) From this point the products diverge as Microsoft includes more Windows features whilst Sybase adds Enterprise features (performance and scaling). > June 1993: Sybase announces its latest generation of software, named the System 10 product family; (...)
    - hodgesrm 6y ago
      Correct. MS SQL Server is based on the Sybase 4.2 release. System 10 was 3 releases later (4.8 & 4.9 added MP and internationalization support respectively).
    - davidgould 6y ago
      Fun fact, I handled producing and validating the last source code SQL Server source code exchange between Sybase and MS.
  - davidgould 6y ago
    As I recall, there were a few "ambitious" projects on the UI side, application builders or frameworks or something that were failing around then. I think there was a real loss of management focus on actual products in favor of chasing the next big thing. We also forgot to ship 4.8 (MP) for months as everyone jumped to 5.0 (aka System 10).
pjmlp 6y ago
Interesting, I always felt that Oracle was the first RDMS vendor to take that path (with Java's early adoption and NC). I was at their shared session (together with Sun) in Lisbon about NC and how it would change the workplace. Thanks for sharing.
- hodgesrm 6y ago
  I would guess pretty much all the DBMS vendors in the early 1990s had people looking at VMs and were mentally prepared for Java when it arrived. In addition to other advantages DBMS designers were looking for better ways to compile queries into executable representations (aka bytecode). That path still exists but I think the tendency now is to harness tools like LLVM and do JIT compilation.

fulafel 6y ago

What happened then, did it get rewritten in Java?

hodgesrm 6y ago
No, the project got cancelled before Java showed up. Sybase pretty much went down the tubes after that as a major DBMS vendor. Not because our project failed, but because Sybase had a dud release in 1993 named System 10 that had serious quality problems and tanked sales.
- e12e 6y ago
  Heh, so that's just after the split of what became ms sql server on the Microsoft side. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybase https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybase > 1993: Sybase and Microsoft dissolve their partnership. Microsoft receives a copy of the SQL Server code base. (...) Sybase SQL Server version 4.2 and Microsoft SQL Server are identical. (...) From this point the products diverge as Microsoft includes more Windows features whilst Sybase adds Enterprise features (performance and scaling). > June 1993: Sybase announces its latest generation of software, named the System 10 product family; (...)
  - hodgesrm 6y ago
    Correct. MS SQL Server is based on the Sybase 4.2 release. System 10 was 3 releases later (4.8 & 4.9 added MP and internationalization support respectively).
  - davidgould 6y ago
    Fun fact, I handled producing and validating the last source code SQL Server source code exchange between Sybase and MS.
- davidgould 6y ago
  As I recall, there were a few "ambitious" projects on the UI side, application builders or frameworks or something that were failing around then. I think there was a real loss of management focus on actual products in favor of chasing the next big thing. We also forgot to ship 4.8 (MP) for months as everyone jumped to 5.0 (aka System 10).

pjmlp 6y ago

Interesting, I always felt that Oracle was the first RDMS vendor to take that path (with Java's early adoption and NC). I was at their shared session (together with Sun) in Lisbon about NC and how it would change the workplace. Thanks for sharing.

hodgesrm 6y ago
I would guess pretty much all the DBMS vendors in the early 1990s had people looking at VMs and were mentally prepared for Java when it arrived. In addition to other advantages DBMS designers were looking for better ways to compile queries into executable representations (aka bytecode). That path still exists but I think the tendency now is to harness tools like LLVM and do JIT compilation.