6 ms·

I'm always conflicted when I read about this kind of thing. I do think Facebook is actively making the world worse in many ways, but is it better for the people

by NickM 6y ago

I'm always conflicted when I read about this kind of thing. I do think Facebook is actively making the world worse in many ways, but is it better for the people who care about this to quit in protest, or is it better if they stay and try to make things better from the inside? Will actions like this actually hurt the company, or will it just prompt them to hire replacements who have no such ethical qualms, and who may nudge the company in an even worse direction? I don't have an easy answer, and I can certainly imagine how difficult it would be to get up and go to work for an employer every day that you see as evil, so I don't judge the author of this post for leaving...but I think it is still a question worth contemplating. I'd love to hear what other peoples' thoughts are on this.

iso1631 6y ago
He answerd that in his post - Zuckerberg has no intention of listening to internal pressures. Ultimately you have to vote with your wallet.
- NickM 6y ago
  Where did he answer that? I re-read the post but I don't see anything like what you're referencing. Voting with your wallet is another possible approach, but that only works if the lost revenue from all the people who care enough to leave can offset the extra profits FB is making by being evil. FWIW I deactivated my account over a year ago and never looked back, but I did that more out of concern for my own mental health than anything else, and I'm under no illusions that my solitary gesture will make much difference in the grand scheme of things.
  - malloreon 6y ago
    If you use any of Instagram, messenger, or WhatsApp, you vote with your wallet to keep Facebook alive.
    - FabHK 6y ago
      WhatsApp doesn't carry ads (yet), does it? How does using WhatsApp support Facebook? [Serious question... I'm trying not to support Facebook, but do use WhatsApp.]
      - SauciestGNU 6y ago
        I suspect the monthly active user count buoys Facebook's share price.
  - DFHippie 6y ago
    > I'm under no illusions that my solitary gesture will make much difference in the grand scheme of things This is also the argument against voting, recycling, and wearing a covid mask. Collective action is hard.
    - NickM 6y ago
      Recycling and wearing a mask at least have a direct impact on the physical world, and voting has a very small chance of having a very high impact which makes it rationally worthwhile. I’m not sure I agree that those examples are the same. I did originally hope that my leaving FB might inspire others to leave too and have some kind of ripple effect, but over a year has passed and nobody else I know has followed my lead, and it’s really hard to imagine that the tiny difference in ad revenue from my absence affects the decision making at a company like that in any way whatsoever.
  - jyiin 6y ago
    https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6673316720993824768?commentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28activity%3A6673316720993824768%2C6673580464281817088%29&replyUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28activity%3A6673316720993824768%2C6673611974120751105%29 https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6673316...
throwanem 6y ago
Is there any example of "change the system from within" having ever worked? I can't bring one to mind off the top of my head, but that doesn't necessarily mean much.
- rytill 6y ago
  It's definitely frustrating when advocates of this argument are those that benefit from the subject exerting effort keeping the system in-place. I feel it's an overreaction to broadly generalize "change the system from within" arguments to this extent though.
  - throwanem 6y ago
    I didn't make a generalization. I asked a question.
- NickM 6y ago
  Well, I'm not familiar with many examples relating to corporations either way, but I think legislation is a great example. There have been countless instances of citizens starting successful political movements within their own countries, but I'm not aware of any laws that were changed as a result of people giving up on the US and moving to Canada, for example.
neves 6y ago
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” If you still think that Facebook will be changed from inside you can't be called a naive person anymore. Everybody who work there is now accomplices. Quit men quit. Do the right thing. NOW.
- neves 6y ago
  Staying in Facebook/Instagram/WhatsApp you are an accomplice of: - the Amazon burning under Bolsonaro - American Police violence - Philippines death squads
  - dirtydroog 6y ago
    - Hawaiian Pizza
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    Repairing roads, you're an accomplice of gangsters, murderers, rapists, extortionists, ... /s
- dirtydroog 6y ago
  'accomplices' to what crime?
  - PKop 6y ago
    Don't be obtuse. The thing everyone is talking about. Zuckerberg's policy of enabling Trump and a political message that is opposed by many, but enabled by not leaving.
PKop 6y ago
> or is it better if they stay and try to make things better from the inside? How would engineers have the political power to do this? Unquestionably, mass resignations from experienced devs would send a message, lower the overall competency of the company (therefore weaken it), and lead to a stigma attached to working there in the future. Anything else is excuse making from those who are comfortable and don't want to leave. The impact would be enormous. How could it not be?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by NickM 6y ago

iso1631 6y ago

He answerd that in his post - Zuckerberg has no intention of listening to internal pressures. Ultimately you have to vote with your wallet.

NickM 6y ago
Where did he answer that? I re-read the post but I don't see anything like what you're referencing. Voting with your wallet is another possible approach, but that only works if the lost revenue from all the people who care enough to leave can offset the extra profits FB is making by being evil. FWIW I deactivated my account over a year ago and never looked back, but I did that more out of concern for my own mental health than anything else, and I'm under no illusions that my solitary gesture will make much difference in the grand scheme of things.
- malloreon 6y ago
  If you use any of Instagram, messenger, or WhatsApp, you vote with your wallet to keep Facebook alive.
  - FabHK 6y ago
    WhatsApp doesn't carry ads (yet), does it? How does using WhatsApp support Facebook? [Serious question... I'm trying not to support Facebook, but do use WhatsApp.]
    - SauciestGNU 6y ago
      I suspect the monthly active user count buoys Facebook's share price.
- DFHippie 6y ago
  > I'm under no illusions that my solitary gesture will make much difference in the grand scheme of things This is also the argument against voting, recycling, and wearing a covid mask. Collective action is hard.
  - NickM 6y ago
    Recycling and wearing a mask at least have a direct impact on the physical world, and voting has a very small chance of having a very high impact which makes it rationally worthwhile. I’m not sure I agree that those examples are the same. I did originally hope that my leaving FB might inspire others to leave too and have some kind of ripple effect, but over a year has passed and nobody else I know has followed my lead, and it’s really hard to imagine that the tiny difference in ad revenue from my absence affects the decision making at a company like that in any way whatsoever.
- jyiin 6y ago
  https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6673316720993824768?commentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28activity%3A6673316720993824768%2C6673580464281817088%29&replyUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28activity%3A6673316720993824768%2C6673611974120751105%29 https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6673316...

throwanem 6y ago

Is there any example of "change the system from within" having ever worked? I can't bring one to mind off the top of my head, but that doesn't necessarily mean much.

rytill 6y ago
It's definitely frustrating when advocates of this argument are those that benefit from the subject exerting effort keeping the system in-place. I feel it's an overreaction to broadly generalize "change the system from within" arguments to this extent though.
- throwanem 6y ago
  I didn't make a generalization. I asked a question.
NickM 6y ago
Well, I'm not familiar with many examples relating to corporations either way, but I think legislation is a great example. There have been countless instances of citizens starting successful political movements within their own countries, but I'm not aware of any laws that were changed as a result of people giving up on the US and moving to Canada, for example.

neves 6y ago

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” If you still think that Facebook will be changed from inside you can't be called a naive person anymore. Everybody who work there is now accomplices. Quit men quit. Do the right thing. NOW.

neves 6y ago
Staying in Facebook/Instagram/WhatsApp you are an accomplice of: - the Amazon burning under Bolsonaro - American Police violence - Philippines death squads
- dirtydroog 6y ago
  - Hawaiian Pizza
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  Repairing roads, you're an accomplice of gangsters, murderers, rapists, extortionists, ... /s
dirtydroog 6y ago
'accomplices' to what crime?
- PKop 6y ago
  Don't be obtuse. The thing everyone is talking about. Zuckerberg's policy of enabling Trump and a political message that is opposed by many, but enabled by not leaving.

PKop 6y ago

> or is it better if they stay and try to make things better from the inside? How would engineers have the political power to do this? Unquestionably, mass resignations from experienced devs would send a message, lower the overall competency of the company (therefore weaken it), and lead to a stigma attached to working there in the future. Anything else is excuse making from those who are comfortable and don't want to leave. The impact would be enormous. How could it not be?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]