17 ms·

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which office

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as in reduce the Rambo effect. The idea of attaching military style equipment to the current problems is only for political purposes, they needed to blame Trump for the violence. However in the end, there are few alternatives to fixing the police and their application and misapplication of force 1) Restrict conditions that can be placed in union negotiated contracts regarding officer behavior, culpability, and indemnification. 2) If not 1) then make it illegal for the unions to exist with regards to any public servant who is armed 3) civilian oversight boards that are veto proof against the police they monitor. Not only would they review incidents which are questionable they would have to involved in any use of concentrated force to include no knock warrants; something which should be illegal except in the most incredible cases. 4) holding elected and appointed officials of the localities, city, county, or state, accountable for the harm caused by their police forces.

jeffbee 6y ago
Changing the inventory will reduce the appeal of police work for psycho assholes who fantasize about shooting protesters. Special weapons and vehicles should be reserved for centralized, specialized police forces who are called out when needed, if ever. Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. 1: https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.14.BikeCop.GW_.Online.jpg https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.14.BikeCop.G... 2: https://d2eehagpk5cl65.cloudfront.net/img/c1200x675-w1200-q80/uploads/2020/01/krtphotoslive542514-1200x675.jpg https://d2eehagpk5cl65.cloudfront.net/img/c1200x675-w1200-q8...
- nsl73 6y ago
  > Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. Having police on the roads is having a huge positive impact on drinking and driving. Let’s be careful not to over-correct when demilitarizing our police force.
  - Faaak 6y ago
    Compared to other countries (that have less crime rates), US' police is _way_ too much militarized. So the margin is quite big
  - Loughla 6y ago
    That just strikes me as a disingenuous argument. No one can argue that drinking and driving is bad. But I would argue that drinking and driving is not correlated to SWAT teams being kitted out like they're on the ground in Afghanistan in 2004, and regular street police having access to military weaponry.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - mulmen 6y ago
    How does an MRAP reduce drunk driving? How does any military hardware reduce drunk driving? Yes, police need cars. That’s not controversial.
  - tripzilch 6y ago
    Apparently, other developed countries have found different ways to reduce drinking and driving ...
- vsareto 6y ago
  If you show up for riot duty wearing [1], you're likely to walk away with injuries. If this goes through, make sure to track police injuries during riots if you want to be forthcoming. Violent protesters and instigators will throw things no matter whether you're in [1] or [2]. Bike squads on regular duty almost always look like [1] anyway. [2] might be a SWAT picture.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    [2] is the Alameda County Sheriff serving an eviction on a bunch of old women.
    - lima 6y ago
      Just to make sure, this is a joke, correct?
    - vsareto 6y ago
      Post your source, because this seems to indicate it is SWAT: https://reason.com/2020/01/15/oakland-uses-swat-force-with-tanks-and-an-armored-vehicle-to-evict-squatting-activists/ https://reason.com/2020/01/15/oakland-uses-swat-force-with-t... The other side is they didn't know it was only old women in the home.
      - jeffbee 6y ago
        Well I don't know who's going to be at the grocery store, so I better strap on my grenades. You can't be too careful.
        Loughla 6y ago
        This is legitimately the argument I hear from my friends who are fans of open carry. Now, it's with AR's and AK's, instead of grenades, but that exact line is what they use. I find the fear simply fascinating and confusing.
        vsareto 6y ago
- nds43242 6y ago
  How do you engender an idea of a UK/Canada-type cop in a country where there are more guns than people? I assume cops here are trained to see all citizens as armed threats, which systematically produces cops who are always on edge and ready to kill. The whole thing feels like a deeper problem than just training cops to be nicer.
  - linuxftw 6y ago
    How do you think citizens feel? I consider anyone and everyone potentially armed and potentially a threat, yet I'm not blowing people away in the streets. Sounds like police need to change their tactics. Seems like society needs to change their expectations on what police are doing on a day to day basis. Are criminal penalties too harsh? If you're looking at 25-life for a conviction, aren't you going to resist being apprehended with as much force as possible? Unfortunately for us, democracy ensures idiots elect idiot politicians who employ idiot, evil police.
    - tripzilch 6y ago
      Of course your penalties are too harsh. Not just the lengths either. Your prisons are simply awful places. Prison rape is so common it has its own trope. (and people joke about it, disgustingly) And there's so much more wrong than just the rape thing. Just google "amnesty us prison" if you need more examples.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    The incident that has sparked the current stretch of American decline involved police using force other than firearms against an unarmed man. It's clear that sending police to respond with violence to an incidence of passing counterfeit currency was perhaps not the appropriate response. Violence in American society has various structural root causes. It's not as simple as saying there are a lot of guns. Inequality, lack of opportunity, poor education, bleak built environment, and of course racism and the echoes of slavery are all aspects of the problem. Police violence can't solve any of them.
    - 6y ago
supernintendo 6y ago
The first sentence of your post is simply not true. Demilitarization does help to reduce police violence [0]. Your points about union contracts and civilian oversight are valid and important to point out though. [0] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017712885 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680177128...
eloff 6y ago
Yes, you're right that this won't achieve real change. I truly like the idea of civilian oversight boards. However, I think any meaningful change or even competent governance is of the table in the US until something is done about the broken and polarized two party system. Right now the two factions are about evenly matched and can hardly agree on anything. Until that changes the US will continue to have their most unproductive governments in their history.
- colllectorof 6y ago
  Multiple choice voting. (I.e. you give 1 point to all candidates you like, the ones with most amount of points wins. Very simple to understand system with no spoiler effect.) It will fix the issue within one set of elections and I don't even think it would require any changes to the constitution.
  - tathougies 6y ago
    The constitution is completely silent on voting methodology. States are free to choose whatever they wish so long as it is representative, with the exception of federal Senators (and maybe representatives), I believe.
- rayiner 6y ago
  We agree on violent policing! Seriously, just look at where these cops firing rubber bullets and tear gas work. Almost all working for mayors with D besides their names. The level of police aggression isn’t palpably different whether you’re in Orlando or Minneapolis, and those two cities have vastly different politics.
  - eloff 6y ago
    I think everyone agrees they don't like violent policing. I think as per usual both sides will disagree about what the solution should be.
    - maest 6y ago
fisherjeff 6y ago
This is a somewhat small distinction, but I think an extremely important one: prosecutors - not police unions - are responsible for the lack of charges and indictments against police[0]. And even if an indictment is returned, qualified immunity[1] reduces the chances of conviction. [0] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ferguson-michael-brown-... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity
- teachrdan 6y ago
  Police unions contribute to political campaigns, make endorsements and turn out the vote for "anti-crime" candidates across the board, from President down to local DA. They certainly influence the likelihood of aggressive, or even competent, prosecution of cops who break the law.
- tynpeddler 6y ago
  Qualified immunity only applies in civil cases. The reason criminal charges are rarely brought in police abuse cases is because of the massive conflict of interest in having the police investigate themselves and be prosecuted by an AG who is essentially a close work colleague.
pmarreck 6y ago
According to the data, it will help: https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655717038067712?s=21 https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655717038067712?s=21 (pasted the tweet which contains the link to the data because his entire tweet thread is interesting!)
sandworm101 6y ago
5) Change the uniforms. Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers. NY state patrol uniform: Grey with purple ties. https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2Platoon2.gif https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2... NYPD (new york city) police: Black on black with black ties. https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg It seems meaningless, but having interacted with a few police agencies I have noticed a trend. They cops that show up for meetings in head-to-toe black tend to be more aggressive. They try to assert themselves in every meeting, which is entertaining as we are the military. They cannot win the "who has the bigger gun" thing. The cops that come in oldschool blue shirts and ties are much easier to work with. (Fyi, if those two NYPD officers in the pic were in the military they would get a talking to about attitude. Hands in pockets. Chewing. Crossed arms. In public? Have some respect for your uniform.)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- coopsmgoops 6y ago
  I agree from a public relations standpoint too. All the new cruisers in my city are black Chargers/Challengers with battering ram front bumpers and they look way too intense for the job. I'm also scared irreparable damage had been done to the police brand such that way fewer "good" people will want to sign up.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    The battering ram is useful even for peaceful purposes. It’s great for pushing crashed cars to the side of the road and is a good place to hook a tow strap. I’m from a rural part of the country and they have come in handy multiple times. Totally agreed on the paint schemes.
    - prepend 6y ago
      Paint the rams pink. There’s no need to make them look like Tie Fighters. Here’s an Italian police car [0]. Here’s a Cobra HISS tank [1]. Here’s a local police department’s default cruiser [2]. When the police car looks more like a GI Joe tank than other nations, that’s an easy fix. Just like making kids were corny uniforms affects behavior, I think having police drive non-threatening cars will reduce violence. [0] https://images.app.goo.gl/3uEds6hdzPwoiF6D7 https://images.app.goo.gl/3uEds6hdzPwoiF6D7 [1] https://images.app.goo.gl/eJAaVdK5qNXEKah39 https://images.app.goo.gl/eJAaVdK5qNXEKah39 [2] https://www.ajc.com/rf/image_large/Pub/p8/AJC/2017/03/20/Images/newsEngin.18081628_Alpharetta-Police.jpg https://www.ajc.com/rf/image_large/Pub/p8/AJC/2017/03/20/Ima...
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> equipment issue isn't going to solve anything This sounds like perfect being the enemy of the good. Militarising police lets them to project force like, well, militaries. It attracts people who want to play with military toys without military training. Removing military equipment doesn't solve the problem. But it makes it less deadly. And it removes one, among many, incentives for bad behavior. > civilian oversight boards that are veto proof against the police they monitor Simplier: let them initiate investigations, and give them the funding required to do so. > holding elected and appointed officials of the localities, city, county, or state, accountable for the harm caused by their police forces This is lip service. They're already elected. They continue to be re-elected. Police violence is, in large part, a majoritarian failure.
aggie 6y ago
"X isn't going to solve anything." "X will help with..." I'm seeing a lot of good, evidence-based reform ideas dismissed as not being enough to "solve" the problem. But reform isn't all or nothing! Where we can make marginal improvements, we should. This is a large, complex, and heavily-entrenched issue. There is no silver bullet. Attack it from every angle available.
alehul 6y ago
https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224 https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224 Per part 4 in the thread above, more military-style equipment appears to lead to a significant increase in police violence. It's also worth reading for the rest of what does (and doesn't) work. Link to full study on militarization and police violence: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017712885 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680177128...
HeyLaughingBoy 6y ago
There are many "real problems." This will help solve one of them.
adamsea 6y ago
Clothes matter more than you think.
hrktb 6y ago
> 2) If not 1) then make it illegal for the unions to exist with regards to any public servant who is armed As a condition that police behavior is better prosecuted, and a lot is done to change their culture, unions have an important role to play IMO. Regardless of how I feel about police members in general, they also are in a job where they’ll have a hard time negotiating terms. For instance during shelter in place they are on the streets patrolling and cannot refuse to work in time of crisis, don’t have effective striking rights. Getting fair conditions for the sacrifices requested should be granted, otherwise there’s no way to get reasonable people in these jobs. Excessive power given to unions is of course bad, but no unions could be equally damaging.
tonystubblebine 6y ago
> The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything The solutions you are talking about are real, but this thing you said about equipment isn't true. It's definitely one of the points of emphasis for organizations that are working on this, see: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/demilitarization https://www.joincampaignzero.org/demilitarization And that's based on research like this that receiving military equipment made it more likely for that police department to kill its citizens. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017712885 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680177128...
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. I guess it’s time for us to acknowledge that unions are not always a net benefit.
- maest 6y ago
  They're great if you're part of the union, though.
pstuart 6y ago
5) Make police self-insured, backed by their pensions.
ladzoppelin 6y ago
I agree with what you said except for this "The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything". Removing equipment will greatly help the situation as will the other points you made.
tdeck 6y ago
There is research to support the idea that the equipment is a meaningful factor: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017712885 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680177128... > The US Department of Defense 1033 program makes excess military equipment, including weapons and vehicles, available to local LEAs. The variation in the amount of transferred equipment allows us to probe the relationship between military transfers and police violence. ... >
grupthink 6y ago
This is true. Japanese policeman look like street crossing guards. I've had a few run-ins with police that were pleasant and helpful, that would have otherwise been minor infractions.

jeffbee 6y ago

Changing the inventory will reduce the appeal of police work for psycho assholes who fantasize about shooting protesters. Special weapons and vehicles should be reserved for centralized, specialized police forces who are called out when needed, if ever. Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. 1: https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.14.BikeCop.GW_.Online.jpg https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.14.BikeCop.G... 2: https://d2eehagpk5cl65.cloudfront.net/img/c1200x675-w1200-q80/uploads/2020/01/krtphotoslive542514-1200x675.jpg https://d2eehagpk5cl65.cloudfront.net/img/c1200x675-w1200-q8...

nsl73 6y ago
> Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. Having police on the roads is having a huge positive impact on drinking and driving. Let’s be careful not to over-correct when demilitarizing our police force.
- Faaak 6y ago
  Compared to other countries (that have less crime rates), US' police is _way_ too much militarized. So the margin is quite big
- Loughla 6y ago
  That just strikes me as a disingenuous argument. No one can argue that drinking and driving is bad. But I would argue that drinking and driving is not correlated to SWAT teams being kitted out like they're on the ground in Afghanistan in 2004, and regular street police having access to military weaponry.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mulmen 6y ago
  How does an MRAP reduce drunk driving? How does any military hardware reduce drunk driving? Yes, police need cars. That’s not controversial.
- tripzilch 6y ago
  Apparently, other developed countries have found different ways to reduce drinking and driving ...
vsareto 6y ago
If you show up for riot duty wearing [1], you're likely to walk away with injuries. If this goes through, make sure to track police injuries during riots if you want to be forthcoming. Violent protesters and instigators will throw things no matter whether you're in [1] or [2]. Bike squads on regular duty almost always look like [1] anyway. [2] might be a SWAT picture.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  [2] is the Alameda County Sheriff serving an eviction on a bunch of old women.
  - lima 6y ago
    Just to make sure, this is a joke, correct?
  - vsareto 6y ago
    Post your source, because this seems to indicate it is SWAT: https://reason.com/2020/01/15/oakland-uses-swat-force-with-tanks-and-an-armored-vehicle-to-evict-squatting-activists/ https://reason.com/2020/01/15/oakland-uses-swat-force-with-t... The other side is they didn't know it was only old women in the home.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      Well I don't know who's going to be at the grocery store, so I better strap on my grenades. You can't be too careful.
      - Loughla 6y ago
        This is legitimately the argument I hear from my friends who are fans of open carry. Now, it's with AR's and AK's, instead of grenades, but that exact line is what they use. I find the fear simply fascinating and confusing.
      - vsareto 6y ago
nds43242 6y ago
How do you engender an idea of a UK/Canada-type cop in a country where there are more guns than people? I assume cops here are trained to see all citizens as armed threats, which systematically produces cops who are always on edge and ready to kill. The whole thing feels like a deeper problem than just training cops to be nicer.
- linuxftw 6y ago
  How do you think citizens feel? I consider anyone and everyone potentially armed and potentially a threat, yet I'm not blowing people away in the streets. Sounds like police need to change their tactics. Seems like society needs to change their expectations on what police are doing on a day to day basis. Are criminal penalties too harsh? If you're looking at 25-life for a conviction, aren't you going to resist being apprehended with as much force as possible? Unfortunately for us, democracy ensures idiots elect idiot politicians who employ idiot, evil police.
  - tripzilch 6y ago
    Of course your penalties are too harsh. Not just the lengths either. Your prisons are simply awful places. Prison rape is so common it has its own trope. (and people joke about it, disgustingly) And there's so much more wrong than just the rape thing. Just google "amnesty us prison" if you need more examples.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  The incident that has sparked the current stretch of American decline involved police using force other than firearms against an unarmed man. It's clear that sending police to respond with violence to an incidence of passing counterfeit currency was perhaps not the appropriate response. Violence in American society has various structural root causes. It's not as simple as saying there are a lot of guns. Inequality, lack of opportunity, poor education, bleak built environment, and of course racism and the echoes of slavery are all aspects of the problem. Police violence can't solve any of them.
  - 6y ago

supernintendo 6y ago

The first sentence of your post is simply not true. Demilitarization does help to reduce police violence [0]. Your points about union contracts and civilian oversight are valid and important to point out though. [0] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017712885 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680177128...

eloff 6y ago

Yes, you're right that this won't achieve real change. I truly like the idea of civilian oversight boards. However, I think any meaningful change or even competent governance is of the table in the US until something is done about the broken and polarized two party system. Right now the two factions are about evenly matched and can hardly agree on anything. Until that changes the US will continue to have their most unproductive governments in their history.

colllectorof 6y ago
Multiple choice voting. (I.e. you give 1 point to all candidates you like, the ones with most amount of points wins. Very simple to understand system with no spoiler effect.) It will fix the issue within one set of elections and I don't even think it would require any changes to the constitution.
- tathougies 6y ago
  The constitution is completely silent on voting methodology. States are free to choose whatever they wish so long as it is representative, with the exception of federal Senators (and maybe representatives), I believe.
rayiner 6y ago
We agree on violent policing! Seriously, just look at where these cops firing rubber bullets and tear gas work. Almost all working for mayors with D besides their names. The level of police aggression isn’t palpably different whether you’re in Orlando or Minneapolis, and those two cities have vastly different politics.
- eloff 6y ago
  I think everyone agrees they don't like violent policing. I think as per usual both sides will disagree about what the solution should be.
  - maest 6y ago

fisherjeff 6y ago

This is a somewhat small distinction, but I think an extremely important one: prosecutors - not police unions - are responsible for the lack of charges and indictments against police[0]. And even if an indictment is returned, qualified immunity[1] reduces the chances of conviction. [0] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ferguson-michael-brown-... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity

teachrdan 6y ago
Police unions contribute to political campaigns, make endorsements and turn out the vote for "anti-crime" candidates across the board, from President down to local DA. They certainly influence the likelihood of aggressive, or even competent, prosecution of cops who break the law.
tynpeddler 6y ago
Qualified immunity only applies in civil cases. The reason criminal charges are rarely brought in police abuse cases is because of the massive conflict of interest in having the police investigate themselves and be prosecuted by an AG who is essentially a close work colleague.

pmarreck 6y ago

According to the data, it will help: https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655717038067712?s=21 https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655717038067712?s=21 (pasted the tweet which contains the link to the data because his entire tweet thread is interesting!)

sandworm101 6y ago

5) Change the uniforms. Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers. NY state patrol uniform: Grey with purple ties. https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2Platoon2.gif https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2... NYPD (new york city) police: Black on black with black ties. https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg It seems meaningless, but having interacted with a few police agencies I have noticed a trend. They cops that show up for meetings in head-to-toe black tend to be more aggressive. They try to assert themselves in every meeting, which is entertaining as we are the military. They cannot win the "who has the bigger gun" thing. The cops that come in oldschool blue shirts and ties are much easier to work with. (Fyi, if those two NYPD officers in the pic were in the military they would get a talking to about attitude. Hands in pockets. Chewing. Crossed arms. In public? Have some respect for your uniform.)

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
coopsmgoops 6y ago
I agree from a public relations standpoint too. All the new cruisers in my city are black Chargers/Challengers with battering ram front bumpers and they look way too intense for the job. I'm also scared irreparable damage had been done to the police brand such that way fewer "good" people will want to sign up.
- mulmen 6y ago
  The battering ram is useful even for peaceful purposes. It’s great for pushing crashed cars to the side of the road and is a good place to hook a tow strap. I’m from a rural part of the country and they have come in handy multiple times. Totally agreed on the paint schemes.
  - prepend 6y ago
    Paint the rams pink. There’s no need to make them look like Tie Fighters. Here’s an Italian police car [0]. Here’s a Cobra HISS tank [1]. Here’s a local police department’s default cruiser [2]. When the police car looks more like a GI Joe tank than other nations, that’s an easy fix. Just like making kids were corny uniforms affects behavior, I think having police drive non-threatening cars will reduce violence. [0] https://images.app.goo.gl/3uEds6hdzPwoiF6D7 https://images.app.goo.gl/3uEds6hdzPwoiF6D7 [1] https://images.app.goo.gl/eJAaVdK5qNXEKah39 https://images.app.goo.gl/eJAaVdK5qNXEKah39 [2] https://www.ajc.com/rf/image_large/Pub/p8/AJC/2017/03/20/Images/newsEngin.18081628_Alpharetta-Police.jpg https://www.ajc.com/rf/image_large/Pub/p8/AJC/2017/03/20/Ima...

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> equipment issue isn't going to solve anything This sounds like perfect being the enemy of the good. Militarising police lets them to project force like, well, militaries. It attracts people who want to play with military toys without military training. Removing military equipment doesn't solve the problem. But it makes it less deadly. And it removes one, among many, incentives for bad behavior. > civilian oversight boards that are veto proof against the police they monitor Simplier: let them initiate investigations, and give them the funding required to do so. > holding elected and appointed officials of the localities, city, county, or state, accountable for the harm caused by their police forces This is lip service. They're already elected. They continue to be re-elected. Police violence is, in large part, a majoritarian failure.

aggie 6y ago

"X isn't going to solve anything." "X will help with..." I'm seeing a lot of good, evidence-based reform ideas dismissed as not being enough to "solve" the problem. But reform isn't all or nothing! Where we can make marginal improvements, we should. This is a large, complex, and heavily-entrenched issue. There is no silver bullet. Attack it from every angle available.

alehul 6y ago

https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224 https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224 Per part 4 in the thread above, more military-style equipment appears to lead to a significant increase in police violence. It's also worth reading for the rest of what does (and doesn't) work. Link to full study on militarization and police violence: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017712885 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680177128...

HeyLaughingBoy 6y ago

There are many "real problems." This will help solve one of them.

adamsea 6y ago

Clothes matter more than you think.

hrktb 6y ago

> 2) If not 1) then make it illegal for the unions to exist with regards to any public servant who is armed As a condition that police behavior is better prosecuted, and a lot is done to change their culture, unions have an important role to play IMO. Regardless of how I feel about police members in general, they also are in a job where they’ll have a hard time negotiating terms. For instance during shelter in place they are on the streets patrolling and cannot refuse to work in time of crisis, don’t have effective striking rights. Getting fair conditions for the sacrifices requested should be granted, otherwise there’s no way to get reasonable people in these jobs. Excessive power given to unions is of course bad, but no unions could be equally damaging.

tonystubblebine 6y ago

> The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything The solutions you are talking about are real, but this thing you said about equipment isn't true. It's definitely one of the points of emphasis for organizations that are working on this, see: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/demilitarization https://www.joincampaignzero.org/demilitarization And that's based on research like this that receiving military equipment made it more likely for that police department to kill its citizens. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017712885 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680177128...

lawnchair_larry 6y ago

Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. I guess it’s time for us to acknowledge that unions are not always a net benefit.

maest 6y ago
They're great if you're part of the union, though.

pstuart 6y ago

5) Make police self-insured, backed by their pensions.

ladzoppelin 6y ago

I agree with what you said except for this "The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything". Removing equipment will greatly help the situation as will the other points you made.

tdeck 6y ago

There is research to support the idea that the equipment is a meaningful factor: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017712885 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680177128... > The US Department of Defense 1033 program makes excess military equipment, including weapons and vehicles, available to local LEAs. The variation in the amount of transferred equipment allows us to probe the relationship between military transfers and police violence. ... >

grupthink 6y ago

This is true. Japanese policeman look like street crossing guards. I've had a few run-ins with police that were pleasant and helpful, that would have otherwise been minor infractions.