4 ms·

Agreed, it’s impossible to have adult conversations about anything other than tech on HN.

scarface74 6y ago
Yeah. I just deleted it. I shouldn’t have. But it was a bit snarky. Yet and still when I responded to another comment about HN’s hypocrisy about criticizing big tech’s monopolist ability to - not saying they have - censor information that is critical about the government, they still want the same government to “regulate tech”. Of course that got flagged. This is the same government that threatened to “shut down Twitter”. Too many people here show more concern about side loading apps on their phone than the treatment that minorities get by the police and justice system.
- dang 6y ago
  Users probably flagged your comment because it was unsubstantive, and a supercilious generalization of the community you're participating in ("HN users are the first..."). The HN community is divided because society at large is divided, but the bulk of the participants here don't match your description. You might be running afoul of the cognitive biases that shape most of these perceptions: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=demons%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=notice%20dislike%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
dang 6y ago
By posting that, you make it more so, and actually it is far from true. We should do things to help develop the discourse here, not kick it. The container is fragile. I believe that when the community gets this sort of inaccurate reflection of itself, it encourages a "why bother" sentiment and, downstream from that, a "fuck you" sentiment, since if no one is communicating anyhow, what else does it make sense to say? In reality, is there any other non-siloed community of HN's size, where divisive topics routinely arise, that manages to do better at "adult conversations"? I don't know of one. I know it feels like HN is the worst [1], but actually, in relative terms, this place has managed to plant at least one or two toes outside the inner circle of hell. Our task is to move another toe in that direction. I wrote about this recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098. Short version: it's because HN is less divisive that it feels more divisive, because this is the rare case of a large(ish) community that keeps itself in one piece instead of factoring into shards, silos, or social graphs. If that's true, then although we haven't realized it yet, the HN community is on the leading edge of the opportunity to learn to be different with one another, at least on the internet. This opportunity is precious and we need to become more conscious of it as a community, so we have a chance to do something with it other than collapse back into the moat. [1] I do not mean to pick on you personally—it sucks to get singled out and I have zero intention of shaming. The truth is that most of us have this emotional perception of HN, including me. If you read the post I linked to above, there's a theory there of why that is.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > I believe when the community gets this sort of deeply inaccurate reflection of itself, it encourages a "why bother" sentiment Tbh though, on some topics, "why bother" is accurate. You can write a comment that is controversial, but it will be heavily downvoted and flagged, so indeed: why bother? The Overton Window on HN isn't as large as it appears, but it's generally accepted that you can say what you want as long as it's within these narrow limits. What you're saying about the shock value of encountering different opinions for the first time is probably true (for some more so than others, I believe), but it doesn't change the issue that, on controversial topics, actually engaging the outraged and offering a different point of view does not seem useful. After a bunch of unspoken "fuck you" flags, "why bother" is what's keeping the site civil. If people are emotional and cannot be reached by words, don't try to talk to them unless you want to fight them. "Why bother" is deescalation.
  - dang 6y ago
    I didn't mean "why bother saying anything". I meant "why bother treating other people well". If I have the image that no one else is restraining themselves or putting effort into being thoughtful and respectful, then why should I bother making the effort? That's what leads to "fuck you". The thing is, that image of HN is actually wrong. We all need to become aware of how strong the biases are that lead to it, lest we end up destroying the very thing we wish for.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    actually engaging the outraged and offering a different point of view does not seem useful. You don't have to engage the outraged. It's not a best practice to go actively looking for the people openly and vehemently opposed to you and your views. I'm a social creature and I have something of a tendency to reply to other comments instead of leaving a top level stand alone comment. I also have a lot of controversial opinions and I'm a magnet for controversy in part simply because I'm a demographic outlier for the audience here. Sometimes, it's best to make those stand alone comments instead of replying to an existing comment. Sometimes that's the way to deescalate without being silenced on the topic.

Yeah. I just deleted it. I shouldn’t have. But it was a bit snarky. Yet and still when I responded to another comment about HN’s hypocrisy about criticizing big tech’s monopolist ability to - not saying they have - censor information that is critical about the government, they still want the same government to “regulate tech”. Of course that got flagged. This is the same government that threatened to “shut down Twitter”. Too many people here show more concern about side loading apps on their phone than the treatment that minorities get by the police and justice system.

dang 6y ago
Users probably flagged your comment because it was unsubstantive, and a supercilious generalization of the community you're participating in ("HN users are the first..."). The HN community is divided because society at large is divided, but the bulk of the participants here don't match your description. You might be running afoul of the cognitive biases that shape most of these perceptions: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=demons%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=notice%20dislike%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

dang 6y ago

By posting that, you make it more so, and actually it is far from true. We should do things to help develop the discourse here, not kick it. The container is fragile. I believe that when the community gets this sort of inaccurate reflection of itself, it encourages a "why bother" sentiment and, downstream from that, a "fuck you" sentiment, since if no one is communicating anyhow, what else does it make sense to say? In reality, is there any other non-siloed community of HN's size, where divisive topics routinely arise, that manages to do better at "adult conversations"? I don't know of one. I know it feels like HN is the worst [1], but actually, in relative terms, this place has managed to plant at least one or two toes outside the inner circle of hell. Our task is to move another toe in that direction. I wrote about this recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098. Short version: it's because HN is less divisive that it feels more divisive, because this is the rare case of a large(ish) community that keeps itself in one piece instead of factoring into shards, silos, or social graphs. If that's true, then although we haven't realized it yet, the HN community is on the leading edge of the opportunity to learn to be different with one another, at least on the internet. This opportunity is precious and we need to become more conscious of it as a community, so we have a chance to do something with it other than collapse back into the moat. [1] I do not mean to pick on you personally—it sucks to get singled out and I have zero intention of shaming. The truth is that most of us have this emotional perception of HN, including me. If you read the post I linked to above, there's a theory there of why that is.

luckylion 6y ago
> I believe when the community gets this sort of deeply inaccurate reflection of itself, it encourages a "why bother" sentiment Tbh though, on some topics, "why bother" is accurate. You can write a comment that is controversial, but it will be heavily downvoted and flagged, so indeed: why bother? The Overton Window on HN isn't as large as it appears, but it's generally accepted that you can say what you want as long as it's within these narrow limits. What you're saying about the shock value of encountering different opinions for the first time is probably true (for some more so than others, I believe), but it doesn't change the issue that, on controversial topics, actually engaging the outraged and offering a different point of view does not seem useful. After a bunch of unspoken "fuck you" flags, "why bother" is what's keeping the site civil. If people are emotional and cannot be reached by words, don't try to talk to them unless you want to fight them. "Why bother" is deescalation.
- dang 6y ago
  I didn't mean "why bother saying anything". I meant "why bother treating other people well". If I have the image that no one else is restraining themselves or putting effort into being thoughtful and respectful, then why should I bother making the effort? That's what leads to "fuck you". The thing is, that image of HN is actually wrong. We all need to become aware of how strong the biases are that lead to it, lest we end up destroying the very thing we wish for.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  actually engaging the outraged and offering a different point of view does not seem useful. You don't have to engage the outraged. It's not a best practice to go actively looking for the people openly and vehemently opposed to you and your views. I'm a social creature and I have something of a tendency to reply to other comments instead of leaving a top level stand alone comment. I also have a lot of controversial opinions and I'm a magnet for controversy in part simply because I'm a demographic outlier for the audience here. Sometimes, it's best to make those stand alone comments instead of replying to an existing comment. Sometimes that's the way to deescalate without being silenced on the topic.