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There are multiple videos of cops aiming and firing directly at the face and head, sometimes only a few feet away. It's terrifying and disheartening.

ashtonkem 6y ago
I feel like rubber bullets should be serialized, so you can know who fired it. It shouldn’t be too hard, they’re both extremely large and consumed in relatively small quantities.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  It seems like the last point is sadly becoming less and less true.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    In theory, cops aren’t supposed to use a lot of lethal ammunition either, but here we are.
- milkytron 6y ago
  I agree, although I have a feeling police unions would be adamantly opposed to this. Similar to their opposition to body cameras.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Given the behavior of the police this week, we can no longer afford to tailor our reforms to the whims of the police unions.
    - klmadfejno 6y ago
      Great. All you need to do is disentangle one of the most powerful labor unions in the country.
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        Alas, I am not under the impression it will be easy.
      - craftinator 6y ago
        Maybe our glorious leader should declare them a "domestic terrorist organization"...
- brenden2 6y ago
  That's an interesting idea, but I think the police are too powerful for that to happen at this point.
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    So the police are being anti-democratic. I'd agree that traceable rubber bullets is for much further down the line. First you need prosecution of any officer shown using a gun at a person's head or upper-torso when they're not responding to a situation of immediate threat of loss of life. Seems the evidence should be there for that. Swift prosecution, and where appropriate conviction, of police abuses would help to quell the current unrest IMO. Like on Reddit yesterday I saw video of an officer placing a stick in an already subdued persons hand, then beating them in the head and retrieving the stick ... is there any reason that person isn't already in jail? They should fast track prosecutions, have them in prison - of found guilty - by the end of the week. Swift, open and impeccable justice is called for. You can't entirely blame individual officers IMO, watching riot footage knee-on-neck is clearly a widely adopted technique, presumably it's taught. And putting someone in a riot with a weapon, we should expect aggressive actions, it's a natural human response that can't easily be trained out. Mandatory gun cameras for riot police might be useful as this point though?
- StavrosK 6y ago
  How would you find a specific bullet, though? It doesn't usually get lodged.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Lots of rubber bullets are big, roughly the size of a soda can. They aren’t too hard to locate and keep. It’s only the less effective shot shells that are more likely to bounce around and be hard to track.
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      Oh, huh, I thought they were paintball-sized.
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        Some are, usually they’re packed into 12ga shot shells, but those are limited in their velocity due to their tendency to penetrate rather than bounce off the victims. The bigger ones are able to strike further and harder with a reduced risk of penetration. At the paintball size it’s now more common to see CS filled paintballs. Those don’t require a huge amount of kinetic energy to work, although exposure to CS gas has its own long term side effects.
        herewulf 6y ago
        Those paintballs are filled with oleoresin capsicum (OC) which is a far more persistent and "persuasive" substance. Getting hit with a CS paintball would be ineffectual due to the small amount and the fact that it wears off quickly. What "long term side effects" does CS have? The US Army (at least) routinely puts all soldiers through a CS filled gas chamber as part of chemical warfare training and has done so for decades.
        computerfriend 6y ago
        There are no longitudinal studies, because it is very difficult to find a sample of repeatedly tear-gassed subjects over relatively long timeframes. Hong Kong is a good example though, where estimates are that ~90% of the population have been exposed. In Hong Kong, long-term exposure has been connected with rashes, respiratory problems and chloracne.
- sneak 6y ago
  Why would it matter who fired it? Police are not holding police accountable for violent assaults. Even if you were to ID the attacker, qualified immunity prevents you from suing them personally for violating your rights. You sue the police department, and then the taxpayer pays the settlement, and the cop suffers no negative consequences.
  - chillingeffect 6y ago
    yes but qualified immunity is only one part of the story. even if you can't sue them personally, they can be held accountable to their supervisors.
    - voganmother42 6y ago
      > A white Minneapolis police officer who knelt on George Floyd’s neck opened fire on two people during his 19-year career and had nearly 20 complaints and two letters of reprimand filed against him. “Held accountable”
  - squeaky-clean 6y ago
    One step at a time man, one step at a time.
- klmadfejno 6y ago
  I think it would be relatively easy to build a facial recognition database of cops using publicly available data. A touch of irony to it.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Cops faces are covered during these events, for anonymity, for intimidation, and nominally for protection.
    - klmadfejno 6y ago
      That's a good point. You do however have height, width, maybe skin tone, voice, etc.
- eloisius 6y ago
  Why in the world? You'll have no trouble finding videos of police blatantly misusing them in broad daylight. There are no consequences because... there are no consequences. Why would serializing rubber bullets help? Are we going to collect handfuls of them off the ground and then conjecture as to which officer fired which bullet?
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    You’re right, much to my continued sadness and rage. Just trying to come up with some idea to help, but clearly legislative change is required.
  - squeaky-clean 6y ago
    ? The serial numbers would prevent conjecture. Unless officers are just trading guns with each other in the middle of the event.
    - cosmie 6y ago
      They're not penetration rounds, so will likely ricochet off the individual. After which, they'll co-mingle with the rounds scattered around by all of the officers. Except in isolated cases that don't involve multiple officers, but then the serial number is a moot point. So while a serial number can prove that a particular round came from a specific officer, proving a direct connection between any specific damage and a specific round would be an area of uncertainty and conjecture. And even if you do keep track of an individual round, the above argument itself would allow for officers/lawyers to argue that case anyway, introducing enough reasonable doubt to weasel out of repercussions.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  As long as cops have immunity from prosecution, what purpose would tracing the bullets serve?
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  "Oops, looks like our records have been destroyed. What a shame."
- komali2 6y ago
  That's extremely optimistic and I admire you for thinking of it. Surely though simply requiring all police officers to have their cameras on 24/7, with instant firing for switching them off while on-duty, or taping them. I've seen both during the protests. When the cops killed the BBQ guy, it was like 50 officers on site. All had their cameras off.
- GloriousKoji 6y ago
  I don't think that would help as the bullets would eventually end up on the group with no accountability of who it hit or was aimed at. I think it would be better to have a camera that takes a picture every-time a trigger is pulled. Then again nothing stops them from finding a way to disable it like the body cameras.

ashtonkem 6y ago

I feel like rubber bullets should be serialized, so you can know who fired it. It shouldn’t be too hard, they’re both extremely large and consumed in relatively small quantities.

sokoloff 6y ago
It seems like the last point is sadly becoming less and less true.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  In theory, cops aren’t supposed to use a lot of lethal ammunition either, but here we are.
milkytron 6y ago
I agree, although I have a feeling police unions would be adamantly opposed to this. Similar to their opposition to body cameras.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Given the behavior of the police this week, we can no longer afford to tailor our reforms to the whims of the police unions.
  - klmadfejno 6y ago
    Great. All you need to do is disentangle one of the most powerful labor unions in the country.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      Alas, I am not under the impression it will be easy.
    - craftinator 6y ago
      Maybe our glorious leader should declare them a "domestic terrorist organization"...
brenden2 6y ago
That's an interesting idea, but I think the police are too powerful for that to happen at this point.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  So the police are being anti-democratic. I'd agree that traceable rubber bullets is for much further down the line. First you need prosecution of any officer shown using a gun at a person's head or upper-torso when they're not responding to a situation of immediate threat of loss of life. Seems the evidence should be there for that. Swift prosecution, and where appropriate conviction, of police abuses would help to quell the current unrest IMO. Like on Reddit yesterday I saw video of an officer placing a stick in an already subdued persons hand, then beating them in the head and retrieving the stick ... is there any reason that person isn't already in jail? They should fast track prosecutions, have them in prison - of found guilty - by the end of the week. Swift, open and impeccable justice is called for. You can't entirely blame individual officers IMO, watching riot footage knee-on-neck is clearly a widely adopted technique, presumably it's taught. And putting someone in a riot with a weapon, we should expect aggressive actions, it's a natural human response that can't easily be trained out. Mandatory gun cameras for riot police might be useful as this point though?
StavrosK 6y ago
How would you find a specific bullet, though? It doesn't usually get lodged.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Lots of rubber bullets are big, roughly the size of a soda can. They aren’t too hard to locate and keep. It’s only the less effective shot shells that are more likely to bounce around and be hard to track.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    Oh, huh, I thought they were paintball-sized.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      Some are, usually they’re packed into 12ga shot shells, but those are limited in their velocity due to their tendency to penetrate rather than bounce off the victims. The bigger ones are able to strike further and harder with a reduced risk of penetration. At the paintball size it’s now more common to see CS filled paintballs. Those don’t require a huge amount of kinetic energy to work, although exposure to CS gas has its own long term side effects.
      - herewulf 6y ago
        Those paintballs are filled with oleoresin capsicum (OC) which is a far more persistent and "persuasive" substance. Getting hit with a CS paintball would be ineffectual due to the small amount and the fact that it wears off quickly. What "long term side effects" does CS have? The US Army (at least) routinely puts all soldiers through a CS filled gas chamber as part of chemical warfare training and has done so for decades.
        computerfriend 6y ago
        There are no longitudinal studies, because it is very difficult to find a sample of repeatedly tear-gassed subjects over relatively long timeframes. Hong Kong is a good example though, where estimates are that ~90% of the population have been exposed. In Hong Kong, long-term exposure has been connected with rashes, respiratory problems and chloracne.
sneak 6y ago
Why would it matter who fired it? Police are not holding police accountable for violent assaults. Even if you were to ID the attacker, qualified immunity prevents you from suing them personally for violating your rights. You sue the police department, and then the taxpayer pays the settlement, and the cop suffers no negative consequences.
- chillingeffect 6y ago
  yes but qualified immunity is only one part of the story. even if you can't sue them personally, they can be held accountable to their supervisors.
  - voganmother42 6y ago
    > A white Minneapolis police officer who knelt on George Floyd’s neck opened fire on two people during his 19-year career and had nearly 20 complaints and two letters of reprimand filed against him. “Held accountable”
- squeaky-clean 6y ago
  One step at a time man, one step at a time.
klmadfejno 6y ago
I think it would be relatively easy to build a facial recognition database of cops using publicly available data. A touch of irony to it.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Cops faces are covered during these events, for anonymity, for intimidation, and nominally for protection.
  - klmadfejno 6y ago
    That's a good point. You do however have height, width, maybe skin tone, voice, etc.
eloisius 6y ago
Why in the world? You'll have no trouble finding videos of police blatantly misusing them in broad daylight. There are no consequences because... there are no consequences. Why would serializing rubber bullets help? Are we going to collect handfuls of them off the ground and then conjecture as to which officer fired which bullet?
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  You’re right, much to my continued sadness and rage. Just trying to come up with some idea to help, but clearly legislative change is required.
- squeaky-clean 6y ago
  ? The serial numbers would prevent conjecture. Unless officers are just trading guns with each other in the middle of the event.
  - cosmie 6y ago
    They're not penetration rounds, so will likely ricochet off the individual. After which, they'll co-mingle with the rounds scattered around by all of the officers. Except in isolated cases that don't involve multiple officers, but then the serial number is a moot point. So while a serial number can prove that a particular round came from a specific officer, proving a direct connection between any specific damage and a specific round would be an area of uncertainty and conjecture. And even if you do keep track of an individual round, the above argument itself would allow for officers/lawyers to argue that case anyway, introducing enough reasonable doubt to weasel out of repercussions.
BurningFrog 6y ago
As long as cops have immunity from prosecution, what purpose would tracing the bullets serve?
anigbrowl 6y ago
"Oops, looks like our records have been destroyed. What a shame."
komali2 6y ago
That's extremely optimistic and I admire you for thinking of it. Surely though simply requiring all police officers to have their cameras on 24/7, with instant firing for switching them off while on-duty, or taping them. I've seen both during the protests. When the cops killed the BBQ guy, it was like 50 officers on site. All had their cameras off.
GloriousKoji 6y ago
I don't think that would help as the bullets would eventually end up on the group with no accountability of who it hit or was aimed at. I think it would be better to have a camera that takes a picture every-time a trigger is pulled. Then again nothing stops them from finding a way to disable it like the body cameras.