11 ms·

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It

• emperorsclothes 6y ago
  What is the evidence for racist police violence? Black people are killed by the police in proportion to the rate at which they commit violent crime.
• dfee 6y ago
  Many people want mayhem, but I think your comment is wrong. > Pro-police forces WANT mayhem ... it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence. I don’t think that typical “pro-police forces” want to own the narrative of their cause being racist and violent.
  • somebrody 6y ago
    > I don’t think that typical “pro-police forces” want to own the narrative of their cause being racist and violent I think they do. Many cops seem to be very racist and very violent. It doesn't seem like they care who knows it. Even when they do care, they might not turn on body-cams which should be a fireable offense and now it finally is in at least one case in Kentucky.
    • booleandilemma 6y ago
      Many cops seem to be very racist and very violent Citation needed. I think most cops are just normal people trying to earn a living.
      • somebrody 6y ago
        I said many. Here's many cops being very racist and very violent: https://www.instagram.com/p/CAqt_gHgAxk/?utm_source=ig_embed https://www.instagram.com/p/CAqt_gHgAxk/?utm_source=ig_embed https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-video-appears-show-george-floyd-ground-three-officers-n1217476 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-video-appears-show-...
        • dx87 6y ago
          In a large enough group, you can find "many" people who are whatever you want to generalize the whole group as. Using your logic, saying "many" of the protesters are looting and attacking police and innocent bystanders is completely true. You're picking words that you know are deliberately misleading to push an agenda.
          • somebrody 6y ago
            That's a video of George Floyd being murdered by cops. Do you even know what we are talking about? The cops are violent. They could de-escalate instead of use violence. The agenda is talking about this article https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/de-escalation-keeps-protesters-and-police-safer-heres-why-departments-respond-with-force-anyway/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/de-escalation-keeps-pro...
          • noobermin 6y ago
            Moving the goalposts. He answered the question with evidence that backs up his claim of "many."
      • evan_ 6y ago
        You say “most” which implies that you agree that some police are racist and violent “bad apples.” Why, then, do the “good cops” not speak out against the bad cops? Surely they could use their overwhelming numbers to get rid of the racist and violent bad apples?
        • km3r 6y ago
• nostromo 6y ago
  Minneapolis Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medaria_Arradondo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medaria_Arradondo Seattle Chief of Police: http://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department/command-staff http://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department/... St Louis Chief of Police: http://www.slmpd.org/chief_of_police.shtml http://www.slmpd.org/chief_of_police.shtml Atlanta Chief of Police: https://www.projectq.us/atlanta/atlanta_police_chief_erika_shields_quietly_comes_out_as_gay https://www.projectq.us/atlanta/atlanta_police_chief_erika_s... Chicago Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brown_(police_officer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brown_(police_officer) Oakland Chief of Police: https://climaterwc.com/2019/07/17/san-mateo-police-chief-susan-manheimer-to-retire-in-december/ https://climaterwc.com/2019/07/17/san-mateo-police-chief-sus... People on HN seem to have a cartoon villain view of police, so I thought I'd share a few faces of police leadership in effected communities.
  • panic 6y ago
    The police could stop the protests instantly by changing how they deal with racist officers and officers who kill people. They would rather escalate the situation than make these changes.
    • tcbawo 6y ago
      Being a police officer is a difficult, thankless, dangerous job, yet critical for a functional society. You don't get the same resources, respect, or pension of the military. If you are let go/fired, you have little chance of finding something comparable close by. It's not healthy for the psyche to be put into harm's way for an entire career span. There is probably a lot of untreated PTSD going on. It's not surprising that they are very leery of policies that would put them or fellow officers at risk, or be guinea pigs for policies pushed down from above. People get awkward or remain guarded around police in social settings, so law enforcement tends to fraternize with each other and their families. None of this makes for an environment that promotes transparency. I'm not making any judgements for or against any of the events that have transpired. But I have sympathy for everyone involved. I suspect that the police-public dynamic will never be changed without a significant cultural shift in attitudes.
• briefcomment 6y ago
  Are you joking? Do you not realize that most people are reasonable and do not want distress and despair? Do you fall out of that overwhelming majority?
  • flaque 6y ago
    What else is there to assume? That police, across the country, are wildly incompetent?
    • briefcomment 6y ago
      Yes. Don't let anyone become an officer. Raise officer pay and benefits. Also, give credit to the police have done well and are well intentioned, which must be throughout the majority of the population, otherwise the US would have become unlivable decades ago.
      • flaque 6y ago
        The US is unlivable for the folks they’ve killed though. Many other countries don’t seem to have this problem, why is it unreasonable to ask police to not kill people?
        • briefcomment 6y ago
          It's not unreasonable. It is the right thing to do. Everyone who has been silent must speak up. That is the only way politicians will know they will be voted out of office if they don't comply with appropriate legislation. I have been generally uninvolved and I regret it. Violence and crime though will allow the government to justify greater oppression.
      • rodgerd 6y ago
        An SFPD officer involved in misconduct during the protests was cited as having a salary north of $200,000. How much do officers need to be paid not to shoot journalists in the eyes?
• drusepth 6y ago
  I am pro-police and I do NOT want mayhem. The ideal protest in my eyes is a peaceful, effective one. One that causes real change -- like increased oversight, accountability, altered training, etc -- in the general police population: one that fixes the very real problems we've seen with police for years and continuously improves law enforcement for years to come. Claiming "pro-police forces WANT mayhem" paints the situation in a very generalized, unhelpful, us-versus-them light. There are definitely some pro-police forces that probably want some mayhem, for exactly the reason you state. There's probably others that want mayhem for other reasons. Across the board, however, I'd imagine most pro-police groups of people prefer peaceful protests that don't put officer lives at risk, not to mention all the collateral damage to protestors, buildings, economies, etc. that also could be avoided. It's entirely possible (and, I'd argue, likely) that pro-police people aren't some homogenous group of schemers. You can be enraged about police brutality, abuse, and misconduct -- and also enraged by violent riots.
  • hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    We should be very clear though that civil disobedience and disruptive protest is absolutely not the same thing as violence and looting. In Austin TX protestors blocked the major highway through downtown, which is obviously very disruptive, but IMO did not warrant cops shooting rubber bullets/bean bags indiscriminately into the crowd.
  • adrr 6y ago
    When you see protestors with rubber bullet wounds to the head, there are police actively trying to kill protestors. Every training video says to shoot at the legs to prevent death. We really need to purge police departments of these people who view themselves as enforcers who dish out punishment.
    • smileysteve 6y ago
      Police are trained to shoot for stopping power. A head shot on a target is a missed shot. There is no excuse for the number of rubber and pepper shots that have been above center mass. They're either murderous or have "lucky" bad aim. Exceptions apply for swat snipers in hostage situation
• chanakya 6y ago
  Police are not the only ones who have the incentive to escalate. There are clearly people (likely political anarchists) who mingle with the crowd with the specific intent of escalating and causing mayhem.
• tw000001 6y ago
  I've been monitoring some 20 streams for 3 days straight and in almost every case the protests begin with hours of protestors within inches of police' faces screaming, belittling and dehumanizing the cops, with frequent disparaging references to homosexuality, gender, race, and physical stature. All the meanwhile the police are standing stoically in every single example. At what point is it appropriate to escalate force against a crowd which is increasingly rowdy and hostile? In every single case, police so far have escalated gradually. First with commands, then coordinated movements, gas, flashbangs, and finally rubber bullets. Regardless of whether the majority of protestors are actually peaceful, in all of these confrontations the police are outnumbered 2-10x. The rioters are turning this into a life or death threat, as unruly mobs are wont to do. In fact I've seen a decided lack of police brutality. I haven't seen a single case of anyone being beaten. And I also acknowledge that multiple groups have during the day been on camera calming down rioters and protecting the businesses of their communities. But the narrative that police are being excessive currently is by my multitude of observations totally untrue and it is extremely dangerous for the media to push such an idea, as they have done by repeatedly and consistently claiming that the protests are peaceful while buildings and cars are burning behind them.
  • km3r 6y ago
    I agree that it seems like in most cases the cops are escalating in a controlled and thought out manner. Yeah of course the cops are going to tear gas protesters when they are throwing rocks and launching fireworks (literal explosives!) at the cops. But there is also many examples of cops misbehaving, like the people who were shot with rubber bullets while on their own porch! I think the issue comes down to there being 600 different police academies and 1000s of police departments in the US each with different training and policies. Maybe standardization of these policies would help?
• noobermin 6y ago
  It's also a tactic to maintain their funding levels in the midst of an economic slowdown.
• dang 6y ago
  Please don't post flamebait to HN. This comment was by far the most flamebaity top-level post in this thread, which predictably led to by far the shittiest subthread. That's not cool. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting to HN? Note these ones: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." "Eschew flamebait." If you consider the rest of this page, you'll notice that most of the commenters support the protests (though of course they are divided, just as people at large are divided) and doing so without breaking the site guidelines. It's actually a surprisingly not bad discussion—at least relative to the extremeness of what's going on right now.