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"Of course, as Gillham pointed out, negotiating and managing a protest can’t really work if the protest wasn’t organized ahead of time. That goes double, he sai

"Of course, as Gillham pointed out, negotiating and managing a protest can’t really work if the protest wasn’t organized ahead of time. That goes double, he said, if the topic of the protest is police brutality. It’s hard to negotiate with someone about the best way to demand they be fired." This point is important. The police can't police themselves, and for a lasting solution to this problem to emerge there'll have to be major structural changes to the way police oversight and review is carried out. I hope these protests are a turning point that'll lead to such reforms, but I suspect no significant changes will occur. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

catssie 6y ago
“Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking.” If you want change, make lasting change.
m0zg 6y ago
> wasn’t organized ahead of time Protests might have been unorganized, but riots most certainly are organized. Torching a police car carries a minimum 5 year sentence. It's not the protesters who are doing that. Moreover, it is still being "organized". Someone keeps dropping off pallets with bricks. There are agitator leaflets all over twitter. People have been recorded on video handing out cash to "protesters" from a thick wad of bills. Someone is organizing and funding the riots.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  > People have been recorded on video handing out cash to "protesters" from a thick wad of bills. It would be trivial to contrive that exact scenario. I’m not say that it was contrived, just that it would be trivial to do so.
  - m0zg 6y ago
    That I do agree with. A lot of other things would be trivial to contrive as well. I would not be surprised if the scenes of devastation we see in the media are far smaller in scale IRL, and we're just being shown the same smashed storefront from different angles to drive clicks. But at the same time I think peaceful protesters would not burn police cars or loot, seeing how looting does absolutely nothing good whatsoever for their cause. They would especially not burn or loot minority businesses, churches, or low income housing complexes. Someone is very deliberately and efficiently pouring gasoline into this fire IMO, that much is pretty obvious by now.
- drusepth 6y ago
  We had a peaceful protest in Kansas City on Friday where some police joined in, listened to protestors, took a knee with the protestors, and the mayor joined the protest as well. It was peaceful and all over the news. The very next day we had several trucks unloading beds of bricks and large rocks throughout the Plaza (where protests were and would be again that night) throughout the day and people were snapping videos of at least two buses full of protesters in the full black getup unloading on the edge of the Plaza a few hours before sundown. That night we had 85 arrests, multiple cars set on fire, multiple officers put in the hospital, and plenty of CS gas in the streets. After seeing the peaceful protest on Friday, I find it a little bit suspicious that the crowds grew so quickly and things escalated so quickly (and intentionally, by the looks of people dropping of brick caches) just 24 hours later.
  - vkou 6y ago
    We had a peaceful protest in Cap Hill in Seattle, where the police knelt in solidarity earlier today. There was no violence, no looting, no broken glass, and everyone was being peaceful. After the photo op was done, the police started macing and tear-gassing the crowd. The news then ran this video [1], but with the first 20 seconds cut out, and blamed the protesters on initiating violence. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/gv0ru3/this_is_the_moment_it_all_happened/?utm_medium=usertext&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=Seattle&utm_content=t1_fsm1kep https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/gv0ru3/this_is_the...
    - m0zg 6y ago
      Were you actually there and see it in person, though, or did you hear it from someone else? Because if it's the latter, it smells like horseshit from a mile away. That's why in a conflict you need to hear _both_ versions of what actually happened and try to be impartial.
      - vkou 6y ago
        1. If I was there, on the front line, you'd just dismiss me as either biased, or unable to see what was going on in other parts of the line. This video has the widest field of view of anyone present. 2. Which particular part of this smells like horseshit to you? The news cutting the clip before airing it? The SPD twitter claiming that the police retaliated to an attack by rocks and bottles? Do you see any rocks or bottles thrown in the first 20 seconds of this video? Who are you going to believe - a cop trying to defend his violent outburst, or your own two eyes? In what universe is what you are observing a defense to an attack? Did you even look at the video? 3. Do you deny the neighbourhood being in good shape prior to this? I can confirm this one in person, by the way. Nothing was looted, windows weren't broken, no cars were burning. 4. Here's a first person video account of that, too. https://twitter.com/izaacmellow/status/1267679820600668161?s=21 https://twitter.com/izaacmellow/status/1267679820600668161?s...
hinkley 6y ago
Police brutality protestors should be meeting with the mayor’s office with representation from the police department and internal affairs, but the chief of police is not in charge. That’s the problem. When official channels fail to the point of Protesting in the streets, you can’t use the same channels to address the situation. And I don’t mean “you are incapable” can’t. I mean, “You are not allowed” can’t.
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  These protests and riots are happening precisely because the alternative mechanisms such as the one you are suggesting have failed time and time again. Here in NYC we have a spineless mayor who has completely given up even attempting to exert civilian oversight on the police since 2014. They have free rein to do whatever they want and to "self-police" themselves, and because of the union violent cops are never fired.

catssie 6y ago

“Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking.” If you want change, make lasting change.

m0zg 6y ago

> wasn’t organized ahead of time Protests might have been unorganized, but riots most certainly are organized. Torching a police car carries a minimum 5 year sentence. It's not the protesters who are doing that. Moreover, it is still being "organized". Someone keeps dropping off pallets with bricks. There are agitator leaflets all over twitter. People have been recorded on video handing out cash to "protesters" from a thick wad of bills. Someone is organizing and funding the riots.

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
> People have been recorded on video handing out cash to "protesters" from a thick wad of bills. It would be trivial to contrive that exact scenario. I’m not say that it was contrived, just that it would be trivial to do so.
- m0zg 6y ago
  That I do agree with. A lot of other things would be trivial to contrive as well. I would not be surprised if the scenes of devastation we see in the media are far smaller in scale IRL, and we're just being shown the same smashed storefront from different angles to drive clicks. But at the same time I think peaceful protesters would not burn police cars or loot, seeing how looting does absolutely nothing good whatsoever for their cause. They would especially not burn or loot minority businesses, churches, or low income housing complexes. Someone is very deliberately and efficiently pouring gasoline into this fire IMO, that much is pretty obvious by now.
drusepth 6y ago
We had a peaceful protest in Kansas City on Friday where some police joined in, listened to protestors, took a knee with the protestors, and the mayor joined the protest as well. It was peaceful and all over the news. The very next day we had several trucks unloading beds of bricks and large rocks throughout the Plaza (where protests were and would be again that night) throughout the day and people were snapping videos of at least two buses full of protesters in the full black getup unloading on the edge of the Plaza a few hours before sundown. That night we had 85 arrests, multiple cars set on fire, multiple officers put in the hospital, and plenty of CS gas in the streets. After seeing the peaceful protest on Friday, I find it a little bit suspicious that the crowds grew so quickly and things escalated so quickly (and intentionally, by the looks of people dropping of brick caches) just 24 hours later.
- vkou 6y ago
  We had a peaceful protest in Cap Hill in Seattle, where the police knelt in solidarity earlier today. There was no violence, no looting, no broken glass, and everyone was being peaceful. After the photo op was done, the police started macing and tear-gassing the crowd. The news then ran this video [1], but with the first 20 seconds cut out, and blamed the protesters on initiating violence. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/gv0ru3/this_is_the_moment_it_all_happened/?utm_medium=usertext&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=Seattle&utm_content=t1_fsm1kep https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/gv0ru3/this_is_the...
  - m0zg 6y ago
    Were you actually there and see it in person, though, or did you hear it from someone else? Because if it's the latter, it smells like horseshit from a mile away. That's why in a conflict you need to hear _both_ versions of what actually happened and try to be impartial.
    - vkou 6y ago
      1. If I was there, on the front line, you'd just dismiss me as either biased, or unable to see what was going on in other parts of the line. This video has the widest field of view of anyone present. 2. Which particular part of this smells like horseshit to you? The news cutting the clip before airing it? The SPD twitter claiming that the police retaliated to an attack by rocks and bottles? Do you see any rocks or bottles thrown in the first 20 seconds of this video? Who are you going to believe - a cop trying to defend his violent outburst, or your own two eyes? In what universe is what you are observing a defense to an attack? Did you even look at the video? 3. Do you deny the neighbourhood being in good shape prior to this? I can confirm this one in person, by the way. Nothing was looted, windows weren't broken, no cars were burning. 4. Here's a first person video account of that, too. https://twitter.com/izaacmellow/status/1267679820600668161?s=21 https://twitter.com/izaacmellow/status/1267679820600668161?s...

hinkley 6y ago

Police brutality protestors should be meeting with the mayor’s office with representation from the police department and internal affairs, but the chief of police is not in charge. That’s the problem. When official channels fail to the point of Protesting in the streets, you can’t use the same channels to address the situation. And I don’t mean “you are incapable” can’t. I mean, “You are not allowed” can’t.

CydeWeys 6y ago
These protests and riots are happening precisely because the alternative mechanisms such as the one you are suggesting have failed time and time again. Here in NYC we have a spineless mayor who has completely given up even attempting to exert civilian oversight on the police since 2014. They have free rein to do whatever they want and to "self-police" themselves, and because of the union violent cops are never fired.