7 ms·

From Oct 1, 2021, you will need a REAL ID-compliant license to fly in the USA

28 points by edward 6y ago

sarcasmatwork 6y ago
>Beginning October 1, 2021, every air traveler 18 years of age and older will need a REAL ID-compliant driver’s license, state-issued enhanced driver’s license, or another acceptable form of ID to fly within the United States. But for some reason we cant demand and implement this for voting?
- suprfsat 6y ago
  As we all know, the TSA exists because citizens demanded it.
- BubRoss 6y ago
  Voting is already verified by address and mail.
- kelnos 6y ago
  Only if you want to disenfranchise lots of people...
  - mikeyouse 6y ago
    I would love for these "voting IDs are necessary" people to actually spell out the 'attack' that they envision without voter IDs. You have to be registered to vote in the US, so the thought is that they could show up to a voting precinct and pretend to be someone else and vote since you won't have an ID checked? It's not like the people there would let you do that more than once.. and they cross off people who have already voted, so you could only fraudulently vote for people who won't ever show up.. and you would have to drive to other precincts and know the names of people registered to vote but who won't vote that day for it to scale at all.. Just completely nonsensical.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      It seems you only have to get to the polls before the registered voter to carry out an effective attack against that vote. If someone gets to the polls before me and votes under my name, what happens when the real me shows up? They surely can’t go fish “the other me’s” ballot out of the box, because it’s not tied to my name. Where I vote, it would be trivial to do this, as the rolls of voters are openly published and it’s often the case that the poll worker asks you to help find your name and it’s clear which names have been ticked off. Couple that with week-plus early voting and it would be easy to attack an individual vote. Now, I don’t think it’s likely to affect elections because it’s extremely rare for a small number of votes to decide anything but pretending that we have a secure system without ID is fanciful IMO. To be clear, I’m fine with the current setup and appreciate/support the week-plus of early voting.
      - wtallis 6y ago
        > what happens when the real me shows up? What happens is that it becomes immediately obvious that voter fraud has happened, and a criminal investigation begins before the results of the election can be certified. In addition to being basically impossible to scale up to an effective volume, this form of election fraud is also extremely difficult to pull off without getting caught. So it's really more of a (hypothetical) public nuisance leading to election do-overs, than an effective way to subvert the outcome of an election.
        mikeyouse 6y ago
        Exactly, and each one of the fraudulent votes would consist of a separate felony. So you'd have to wrangle enough people into your conspiracy and convince them all to commit several felonies without having any idea how close the election was going to be. It's not a coincidence that it's an extremely effective way to target "specific" voters in order to depress turnout either.
    - redis_mlc 6y ago
      For those not from the US ... How voter disenfranchisement works is like this. One party (usually the Republicans) looks at a map of areas they're losing in. Then they send a bunch of canvassers over to find out who moved without changing their address, who was sent to jail, technicalities, etc. and request those names be removed from the voter registration list. There's no effort to update the list, it's all removals. And the canvassers don't disclose their actual party or motivation for showing up at your house.
  - supernova87a 6y ago
    It's really hard to respect the argument that we have to do without verifying who participates in our most fundamental democratic process, because we can't seem to get our shit together to get everyone the proper ID. Many other countries (including the more "advanced" ones) make voting contingent on ID. It's not an unreasonable idea. I would respect much more an effort to make ID as easy to get as possible, blanket cover everyone to make sure they have an ID, and be done with that argument once and for all.
- x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
  No, not when you pass Voter Id laws, and then shutter DMVs in areas that your ideology has always sought to disenfranchise. "Alabama passed a strict voter-ID law and then closed 31 DMV offices in the state." https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/alabama-birthplace-of-voting-rights-act-once-again-gutting-voting-rights/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/alabama-birthplace...
  - mmastrac 6y ago
    This is a classic vote suppression tactic: https://www.al.com/opinion/2017/01/as_it_turns_out_bentleys_drive.html https://www.al.com/opinion/2017/01/as_it_turns_out_bentleys_... When Thomas Hofeller died he left a treasure trove of documents showing that these stories were true: https://www.reddit.com/r/HofellerDocuments/comments/el4b4o/spreadsheet_analyzing_average_distance_to_dmv_by/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HofellerDocuments/comments/el4b4o/s...
- wtallis 6y ago
  Voter ID isn't necessarily a bad idea on its own. But the context of its recent history in the US is important. All of the recent voter ID efforts in the US have been using it as the cornerstone of a transparent effort to disenfranchise eligible voters, and its proponents are consistently dishonest about their motives and the effects that voter ID would have. Those despicable efforts have thoroughly tainted the entire idea of voter ID, for years to come. There's no innocent way to bring it up. Anyone who proposes or supports voter ID in the US these days is immediately suspect, and should be regarded as either a racist or politically ignorant and tone-deaf, until proven otherwise.
- thephyber 6y ago
  Flying is considered a privilege in the USA, but voting is an inalienable right. I would personally love if the government issued an ID card to every single person with minimal friction, but that's not what happens in practice. Requiring a specific government-issued ID has become politicized and there are enough people who can not reasonably jump through the hurdles of proving who they are (eg. birth certificate gone when their house was destroyed, no permanent residence, students move to a new state in September and are not able to get their new state ID by early November). > and implement this Also, it's worth mentioning that even if REAL ID were not extended this year, it would still be over a decade and a half behind schedule. The USA government isn't capable of doing much these days.
atlasunshrugged 6y ago
I really hope we can use REAL-ID and make a push for e-ID similar to what Estonia and many other govts have and use it as the cornerstone of online accessible government systems and eventually towards replacing social security numbers
- sneak 6y ago
  The problem with a single, standardized, nationwide way of identifying citizens and permanent residents vs, well, those who aren't either of those things means that it's a turnkey step to denying basic human rights to free movement and equal application of the law to those in the second group. Most things don't require ID from a practical standpoint, flying included. The government has mandated it so, and in the process is setting up a framework for discriminating hardcore against anyone who can't obtain the requisite federal identity paperwork. It's just more systemic racism.
- akmarinov 6y ago
  I thought the whole point of americans not having anything like an identity card, is that they don’t want to be tracked by the government, freedoms, liberties and all that. Getting an e-ID will be very much against that.
  - atlasunshrugged 6y ago
    Sure, but when you have a Facebook page, a drivers license, a passport, and a bunch of records that mean the government can identify you pretty easily anyways why not just get over it and get the benefits of having an e-ID
    - pgcj_poster 6y ago
      I'm opposed to all of those as well.
  - thephyber 6y ago
    In practice, we already suffer all of the surveillance, usability, and identity theft downsides with none of the additional upsides of being able to digitally sign contracts. There are always tons of Americans who claim they don't want to give the government more "power", but misunderstand that it already has this power. An e-ID would just make the experience of dealing with the government less of a hassle. This does skip over the fact that the US government is terrible at procurement, so the RFP would likely have bad requirements and the contract would likely be one large waterfall iteration and inevitably be way late and over budget.
windthrown 6y ago
I'll believe it when I see it. They have been continuously setting and extending that deadline since 2014.
- kevindong 6y ago
  The original deadline was May 11, 2008. The implementation timeline of Real ID has been long to say the least.
ZacharyPitts 6y ago
Oregon does not even have REAL ID compliant driver's licenses. In theory, "Oregon will begin issuing Real ID cards on July 6, 2020.": https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/Pages/Real_ID.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/Pages/Real_ID.aspx. But I suspect that with the DMV being mostly unavailable for nearly 3 months now, even that will not be happening quickly. Thus, anyone from Oregon without a passport will not be able to fly?
- 3JPLW 6y ago
  That's likely a part of the extension, I'm sure.
hangonhn 6y ago
In case anyone else has Global Entry, the Global Entry ID card is Real ID compliant.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  In what case would you use the Global Entry ID card over a passport? EDIT: Thanks for the replies everyone, TIL! Will have to see if TSA can use my GE ID card to lookup my boarding pass (like they can do with a driver's license, passport, or DoD CAC) next time I fly.
  - jhart99 6y ago
    They can use it to lookup a boarding pass if you use the Known Traveler ID number from the card when booking.
  - sephamorr 6y ago
    My global entry card conveniently fits in my wallet, unlike my passport which is otherwise not needed for US domestic travel.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Passport is presumably harder to replace if I lose--and hoses any upcoming international trips. You don't really need your Global Entry ID for anything so it's a good card to use for ID while keeping the cards you may really need later in the trip (or even just at the gate) somewhere safe.
    - jhart99 6y ago
      The only time you need the Global Entry card is when crossing the land borders with Canada or Mexico where that card will let you use the special lanes while your passport doesn't. But for air travel, it isn't needed.
floatingatoll 6y ago
The 'new's here is that the deadline was pushed a year further out due to Covid.
FireBeyond 6y ago
What annoys me about this is that even the TSA is being coy about things. > Adult passengers 18 and over must show valid identification at the airport checkpoint in order to travel. No. What is happening here is "must show proof of residency/citizenship, or definitive exclusionary proof (foreign passport with tourist visa, etc.". Apropos of the validity of the argument of "should undocumented people/immigrants be required to prove residency to travel domestically", which is and can be a separate debate, couching it behind "some states IDs don't meet federal requirements" is disingenuous.
joezydeco 6y ago
"Is a passport my only other option if my driver's license or state ID is not acceptable? No. TSA accepts and will continue to accept other forms of identity documents" https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification Misleading title.
- thoraway1010 6y ago
  Having tried to fly with the TSA TWIC card - which ironically is issued by TSA and required endless hoop jumping to get including biometrics, TSA denied it as a valid ID. I had to use my regular DL. I've always wondered if the agent was clueless or just govt as a whole - why issue these worthless IDs if your own agency can't use them.
  - thephyber 6y ago
    > I've always wondered if the agent was clueless or just govt as a whole yes. Neither of them have an incentive to do better.
    - thoraway1010 6y ago
      On problem - the software / template they used was so unprofessional looking I wouldn't be suprised if a fake version looked better than the real thing. http://3kbo302xo3lg2i1rj8450xje-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/TWIC.jpg http://3kbo302xo3lg2i1rj8450xje-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... Is an example. The photo alignment here is how mine was / lettering etc.
  - LammyL 6y ago
    The agent must have been clueless since TWICs are on the list of approved forms of identification.
oblio 6y ago
I'm not American, but I really don't understand Americans. Have a single, universal national ID. Issue it for free, or for a low fee ($5). Have town halls issue it to everyone. How hard can it be? Almost every country in the world has it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document
- teruakohatu 6y ago
  On the other hand many countries get by just fine without one, including mine (New Zealand), Canada and the United Kingdom. I have never heard anyone suggest we need a national ID in New Zealand.
  - oblio 6y ago
    Considering how many problems they have with SSNs, Equifax, voter disenfranchisement, and the patchwork of pseudo-IDs they have, they badly need a single ID. And "many" countries is basically the 10 or so English/British-derived countries. Look at the list I linked :-)
- phillc73 6y ago
  The Wikipedia page you linked to disagrees with your assertion that almost every country in the world has it. "In many countries – especially English-speaking countries such as Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States – there are no government-issued compulsory identity cards for all citizens."
  - JonRB 6y ago
    I think the key word there is compulsory - I've lived in a couple of those places and it was pretty easy to get a drivers-license level of ID document without too much trouble (and without having a drivers license of my own).
  - oblio 6y ago
    Dude, it's just English speaking people, basically. So yes, everyone else has it. And it's not like everything else is a nightmare dystopia...
Animats 6y ago
Slipped yet another year. It was supposed to take effect October 1, 2020.
ADent 6y ago
“In the event you arrive at the airport without valid identification, because it is lost or at home, you may still be allowed to fly.” From https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification From my pre-RealID experiences grannies in wheel chairs will get a reminder to get a State ID and able bodied middle age folks will get the third degree while they grill you with data from some databases (When was the last date you entered the country? On which flight? Etc)

28 points by edward 6y ago

>Beginning October 1, 2021, every air traveler 18 years of age and older will need a REAL ID-compliant driver’s license, state-issued enhanced driver’s license, or another acceptable form of ID to fly within the United States. But for some reason we cant demand and implement this for voting?

suprfsat 6y ago
As we all know, the TSA exists because citizens demanded it.
BubRoss 6y ago
Voting is already verified by address and mail.
kelnos 6y ago
Only if you want to disenfranchise lots of people...
- mikeyouse 6y ago
  I would love for these "voting IDs are necessary" people to actually spell out the 'attack' that they envision without voter IDs. You have to be registered to vote in the US, so the thought is that they could show up to a voting precinct and pretend to be someone else and vote since you won't have an ID checked? It's not like the people there would let you do that more than once.. and they cross off people who have already voted, so you could only fraudulently vote for people who won't ever show up.. and you would have to drive to other precincts and know the names of people registered to vote but who won't vote that day for it to scale at all.. Just completely nonsensical.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    It seems you only have to get to the polls before the registered voter to carry out an effective attack against that vote. If someone gets to the polls before me and votes under my name, what happens when the real me shows up? They surely can’t go fish “the other me’s” ballot out of the box, because it’s not tied to my name. Where I vote, it would be trivial to do this, as the rolls of voters are openly published and it’s often the case that the poll worker asks you to help find your name and it’s clear which names have been ticked off. Couple that with week-plus early voting and it would be easy to attack an individual vote. Now, I don’t think it’s likely to affect elections because it’s extremely rare for a small number of votes to decide anything but pretending that we have a secure system without ID is fanciful IMO. To be clear, I’m fine with the current setup and appreciate/support the week-plus of early voting.
    - wtallis 6y ago
      > what happens when the real me shows up? What happens is that it becomes immediately obvious that voter fraud has happened, and a criminal investigation begins before the results of the election can be certified. In addition to being basically impossible to scale up to an effective volume, this form of election fraud is also extremely difficult to pull off without getting caught. So it's really more of a (hypothetical) public nuisance leading to election do-overs, than an effective way to subvert the outcome of an election.
      - mikeyouse 6y ago
        Exactly, and each one of the fraudulent votes would consist of a separate felony. So you'd have to wrangle enough people into your conspiracy and convince them all to commit several felonies without having any idea how close the election was going to be. It's not a coincidence that it's an extremely effective way to target "specific" voters in order to depress turnout either.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    For those not from the US ... How voter disenfranchisement works is like this. One party (usually the Republicans) looks at a map of areas they're losing in. Then they send a bunch of canvassers over to find out who moved without changing their address, who was sent to jail, technicalities, etc. and request those names be removed from the voter registration list. There's no effort to update the list, it's all removals. And the canvassers don't disclose their actual party or motivation for showing up at your house.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  It's really hard to respect the argument that we have to do without verifying who participates in our most fundamental democratic process, because we can't seem to get our shit together to get everyone the proper ID. Many other countries (including the more "advanced" ones) make voting contingent on ID. It's not an unreasonable idea. I would respect much more an effort to make ID as easy to get as possible, blanket cover everyone to make sure they have an ID, and be done with that argument once and for all.
x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
No, not when you pass Voter Id laws, and then shutter DMVs in areas that your ideology has always sought to disenfranchise. "Alabama passed a strict voter-ID law and then closed 31 DMV offices in the state." https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/alabama-birthplace-of-voting-rights-act-once-again-gutting-voting-rights/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/alabama-birthplace...
- mmastrac 6y ago
  This is a classic vote suppression tactic: https://www.al.com/opinion/2017/01/as_it_turns_out_bentleys_drive.html https://www.al.com/opinion/2017/01/as_it_turns_out_bentleys_... When Thomas Hofeller died he left a treasure trove of documents showing that these stories were true: https://www.reddit.com/r/HofellerDocuments/comments/el4b4o/spreadsheet_analyzing_average_distance_to_dmv_by/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HofellerDocuments/comments/el4b4o/s...
wtallis 6y ago
Voter ID isn't necessarily a bad idea on its own. But the context of its recent history in the US is important. All of the recent voter ID efforts in the US have been using it as the cornerstone of a transparent effort to disenfranchise eligible voters, and its proponents are consistently dishonest about their motives and the effects that voter ID would have. Those despicable efforts have thoroughly tainted the entire idea of voter ID, for years to come. There's no innocent way to bring it up. Anyone who proposes or supports voter ID in the US these days is immediately suspect, and should be regarded as either a racist or politically ignorant and tone-deaf, until proven otherwise.
thephyber 6y ago
Flying is considered a privilege in the USA, but voting is an inalienable right. I would personally love if the government issued an ID card to every single person with minimal friction, but that's not what happens in practice. Requiring a specific government-issued ID has become politicized and there are enough people who can not reasonably jump through the hurdles of proving who they are (eg. birth certificate gone when their house was destroyed, no permanent residence, students move to a new state in September and are not able to get their new state ID by early November). > and implement this Also, it's worth mentioning that even if REAL ID were not extended this year, it would still be over a decade and a half behind schedule. The USA government isn't capable of doing much these days.

atlasunshrugged 6y ago

I really hope we can use REAL-ID and make a push for e-ID similar to what Estonia and many other govts have and use it as the cornerstone of online accessible government systems and eventually towards replacing social security numbers

sneak 6y ago
The problem with a single, standardized, nationwide way of identifying citizens and permanent residents vs, well, those who aren't either of those things means that it's a turnkey step to denying basic human rights to free movement and equal application of the law to those in the second group. Most things don't require ID from a practical standpoint, flying included. The government has mandated it so, and in the process is setting up a framework for discriminating hardcore against anyone who can't obtain the requisite federal identity paperwork. It's just more systemic racism.
akmarinov 6y ago
I thought the whole point of americans not having anything like an identity card, is that they don’t want to be tracked by the government, freedoms, liberties and all that. Getting an e-ID will be very much against that.
- atlasunshrugged 6y ago
  Sure, but when you have a Facebook page, a drivers license, a passport, and a bunch of records that mean the government can identify you pretty easily anyways why not just get over it and get the benefits of having an e-ID
  - pgcj_poster 6y ago
    I'm opposed to all of those as well.
- thephyber 6y ago
  In practice, we already suffer all of the surveillance, usability, and identity theft downsides with none of the additional upsides of being able to digitally sign contracts. There are always tons of Americans who claim they don't want to give the government more "power", but misunderstand that it already has this power. An e-ID would just make the experience of dealing with the government less of a hassle. This does skip over the fact that the US government is terrible at procurement, so the RFP would likely have bad requirements and the contract would likely be one large waterfall iteration and inevitably be way late and over budget.

windthrown 6y ago

I'll believe it when I see it. They have been continuously setting and extending that deadline since 2014.

kevindong 6y ago
The original deadline was May 11, 2008. The implementation timeline of Real ID has been long to say the least.

ZacharyPitts 6y ago

Oregon does not even have REAL ID compliant driver's licenses. In theory, "Oregon will begin issuing Real ID cards on July 6, 2020.": https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/Pages/Real_ID.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/Pages/Real_ID.aspx. But I suspect that with the DMV being mostly unavailable for nearly 3 months now, even that will not be happening quickly. Thus, anyone from Oregon without a passport will not be able to fly?

3JPLW 6y ago
That's likely a part of the extension, I'm sure.

hangonhn 6y ago

In case anyone else has Global Entry, the Global Entry ID card is Real ID compliant.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
In what case would you use the Global Entry ID card over a passport? EDIT: Thanks for the replies everyone, TIL! Will have to see if TSA can use my GE ID card to lookup my boarding pass (like they can do with a driver's license, passport, or DoD CAC) next time I fly.
- jhart99 6y ago
  They can use it to lookup a boarding pass if you use the Known Traveler ID number from the card when booking.
- sephamorr 6y ago
  My global entry card conveniently fits in my wallet, unlike my passport which is otherwise not needed for US domestic travel.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- ghaff 6y ago
  Passport is presumably harder to replace if I lose--and hoses any upcoming international trips. You don't really need your Global Entry ID for anything so it's a good card to use for ID while keeping the cards you may really need later in the trip (or even just at the gate) somewhere safe.
  - jhart99 6y ago
    The only time you need the Global Entry card is when crossing the land borders with Canada or Mexico where that card will let you use the special lanes while your passport doesn't. But for air travel, it isn't needed.

floatingatoll 6y ago

The 'new's here is that the deadline was pushed a year further out due to Covid.

FireBeyond 6y ago

What annoys me about this is that even the TSA is being coy about things. > Adult passengers 18 and over must show valid identification at the airport checkpoint in order to travel. No. What is happening here is "must show proof of residency/citizenship, or definitive exclusionary proof (foreign passport with tourist visa, etc.". Apropos of the validity of the argument of "should undocumented people/immigrants be required to prove residency to travel domestically", which is and can be a separate debate, couching it behind "some states IDs don't meet federal requirements" is disingenuous.

joezydeco 6y ago

"Is a passport my only other option if my driver's license or state ID is not acceptable? No. TSA accepts and will continue to accept other forms of identity documents" https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification Misleading title.

thoraway1010 6y ago
Having tried to fly with the TSA TWIC card - which ironically is issued by TSA and required endless hoop jumping to get including biometrics, TSA denied it as a valid ID. I had to use my regular DL. I've always wondered if the agent was clueless or just govt as a whole - why issue these worthless IDs if your own agency can't use them.
- thephyber 6y ago
  > I've always wondered if the agent was clueless or just govt as a whole yes. Neither of them have an incentive to do better.
  - thoraway1010 6y ago
    On problem - the software / template they used was so unprofessional looking I wouldn't be suprised if a fake version looked better than the real thing. http://3kbo302xo3lg2i1rj8450xje-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/TWIC.jpg http://3kbo302xo3lg2i1rj8450xje-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... Is an example. The photo alignment here is how mine was / lettering etc.
- LammyL 6y ago
  The agent must have been clueless since TWICs are on the list of approved forms of identification.

oblio 6y ago

I'm not American, but I really don't understand Americans. Have a single, universal national ID. Issue it for free, or for a low fee ($5). Have town halls issue it to everyone. How hard can it be? Almost every country in the world has it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document

teruakohatu 6y ago
On the other hand many countries get by just fine without one, including mine (New Zealand), Canada and the United Kingdom. I have never heard anyone suggest we need a national ID in New Zealand.
- oblio 6y ago
  Considering how many problems they have with SSNs, Equifax, voter disenfranchisement, and the patchwork of pseudo-IDs they have, they badly need a single ID. And "many" countries is basically the 10 or so English/British-derived countries. Look at the list I linked :-)
phillc73 6y ago
The Wikipedia page you linked to disagrees with your assertion that almost every country in the world has it. "In many countries – especially English-speaking countries such as Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States – there are no government-issued compulsory identity cards for all citizens."
- JonRB 6y ago
  I think the key word there is compulsory - I've lived in a couple of those places and it was pretty easy to get a drivers-license level of ID document without too much trouble (and without having a drivers license of my own).
- oblio 6y ago
  Dude, it's just English speaking people, basically. So yes, everyone else has it. And it's not like everything else is a nightmare dystopia...

Animats 6y ago

Slipped yet another year. It was supposed to take effect October 1, 2020.

ADent 6y ago

“In the event you arrive at the airport without valid identification, because it is lost or at home, you may still be allowed to fly.” From https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification From my pre-RealID experiences grannies in wheel chairs will get a reminder to get a State ID and able bodied middle age folks will get the third degree while they grill you with data from some databases (When was the last date you entered the country? On which flight? Etc)