5 ms·

In my attempts to discover the secret behind perfect social interaction, people I've spoken to have been unable to explain exactly how they do it. It seems reas

In my attempts to discover the secret behind perfect social interaction, people I've spoken to have been unable to explain exactly how they do it. It seems reasonable to assume that the brains of social animals are specially tuned to learn social interaction quickly, as such individuals would more quickly form a cohesive group with better survival potential (historically speaking). The question of authenticity, though interesting philosophically speaking, I think can be safely downgraded to simply "how it works in practice". Most people seem to do it out of some sort of instinct, and most people really are telegraphing their true feelings and intentions to varying degrees.

scandox 6y ago
Well unfortunately there are people that can perfectly conceal their true feelings and intentions. Perhaps they are the ones that you need to interview. Though I suppose by definition they won't be very forthcoming.
- kstenerud 6y ago
  That's actually an interesting topic in itself. It's been observed that many sociopaths and psychopaths don't spend long on one person. I wonder if it's because they eventually give off enough tells that others start to notice...
  - ChuckMcM 6y ago
    That has been my experience with people I know who exhibit sociopathic tendencies. One of the more interesting tells is a projection onto people who can see that they are pretending.
    - selimthegrim 6y ago
      What do you mean? That they call them psychopaths?
      - loopz 6y ago
        That is an impossible accusation, as you could be wrong (plus too honest for own good), but the person would be masking better than you as well! Anyway, personal traits aren't criminal. I've heard sociopaths even excuse their "eccentric inattention to others" as possibly having asperger tendencies! Most people still lack experience to even understand they are poles apart. Regarding projections, burn the "rule book". Setting up "outside" people for failure is common but not enough to distinguish. Bullying, condescending remarks, getting others to chime in. It starts with boasting about the last victim, then you're next. Only thing that can stop it is people stop tolerating abuse in their environment. USA is now "it".
        ChuckMcM 6y ago
        Agree with this. I also realize I wasn't clear here, so lets says you have a person A who is a sociopath talk to person B. After that interaction person A comes to person C (me in this example) and says "I don't know, they strike me as a sociopath." Now in these cases, when I've had enough interaction with Person A in other situations, to feel confident in my understanding of their challenges, and when the feedback on Person B from other sources are not reflective of that perception, and are typically hard over the other way ("this person is so empathic" kinds of things). I hypothesize that the body language of Person B was signaling to Person A that their masking was not as effective as they would have liked. The other thing I wanted to be clear about is that it isn't a judgement about them either way, people are who they are. What is important as a manager is understanding the dynamics of your team and how they perceive the world and evaluate it. One has to do that if you have any chance at all of working together effectively.
        loopz 6y ago
        If A is a bully, categorize B as possible future mark. This for very few A, B and opportunity. If A is not a conscious bully (for lack of a better term), B could be perceived as artificial, weak, blunt, out of bounds, insulting, exploitative, etc. Reaction is to push "out" and "defend", maybe "as if" leader. Introspection at A may overcome reaction, though may need reassurance from respected source (=leadership). A and B will probably never work great together, though minimal interaction can work consciously. How A and B relates defines span of real org culture (in heaven).
  - vmception 6y ago
    Some of my business partners are sociopaths and psychopaths. (Despite the various people that will clarify the difference, I feel like these are not mutually exclusive terms.) Sometimes they want to do fraudulent things and are obviously willing to implicate others and I just steer them away and give them another option. I think they like that they are spotted but not shunned. Or maybe I'm a mark to them, or maybe I'm a sociopath too. To the top of society you say? That's the plan.. But they aren't retreating because they've been found out. I just point out how the legitimate way is actually more lucrative. (ie. maybe they want a commission deal on an impossible financial product that a client is interested in because the risks haven't been disclosed, I tell them we can offer a legitimate financial product with 2% management fees and 20% of profits and make way more money)
- jaggederest 6y ago
  I think it's very interesting. I, like I suppose many people in this thread, am virtually always consciously masking in interactions with people. I'm also happy to explain this to folks who are interested, and I haven't ever been called out on it, so you could say that I'm "perfect" in that regard. I doubt whether I adhere perfectly to "normal" behavior, but people don't ask about it, at least. I think it's just a matter of effective control of yourself and a full understanding of the people and situation you're in. Most people on the spectrum struggle with the understanding bit, or the control bit, or both. I'm really lucky in that I'm pretty decent at both halves, so I don't think there's a true "secret to learn", it's more about capacity and ability. The biggest thing I've learned is that I don't really like myself when I'm in full-facsimile mode, and so I consciously try to lower the facade whenever possible, but it's difficult after a lifetime of training by social sanctions.
  - onemoresoop 6y ago
    > The biggest thing I've learned is that I don't really like myself when I'm in full-facsimile mode, and so I consciously try to lower the facade whenever possible, but it's difficult after a lifetime of training by social sanctions Care to elaborate on this? What is the facsimile mode? My intuition tells me it’s the mirroring of the social interaction. If that’s what you mean I might have similar feelings towards it, I sometimes find some interactions awkward if I am too aware. If im lost in the flow it all goes much better
    - jaggederest 6y ago
      I just mean being fully in the facade of making all the expressions, gestures, and small talk stuff. Basically acting "normal" as much as I can. It's a lot of work, and it feels very fake. It feels disrespectful of the people around me, if I don't "mean it" when I say "Hey how's it going" and talk about the weather and sports and smile and nod.
      - onemoresoop 6y ago
        I cannot do facade at all but I could comfortably be me under certain conditions: under low noise environment both physical and information, if I am not stressed out for another reason. I do feel awkward if I present something and I am not prepared but under certain conditions also I can wing it out nicely. It does depend a lot on whether I fit in within a group or not. If you think about it, forcing it when it's not there is really not very productive. I am still not sure whether I am on the spectrum and wouldn't help me out much to be diagnosed, I've accepted a long time ago that I am somewhat different from the norm but not necessarily in a bad way, I simply am not a very good speaking person - I do excel in other modes of communication, just not with words. But I guess with hard work one can train to perform something that they're not natively apt to do just to get the job done, one doesn't have to strive to be best because that puts too much pressure and leads to stress. I hope you be compassionate and comfortable with yourself:) Let me ask you one more thing. Do you dance at all? If not can you describe why not? I'm very curious.
- barry-cotter 6y ago
  There are far more people who effortlessly self-modify to believe and feel what is most socially helpful, without conscious consideration. We call them “normal”.
surfpel 6y ago
I have become close to several extremely social people and discussed this quite a bit. I realized that they approach socializing the same way I approach engineering and the like. At a party they clearly see the subtle or not so subtle effects of their actions and gauge the situation on a meta level without even really realizing that they’re doing it. It’s almost as though some of my neural circuitry originally intended for socializing was applied to an awareness of “things” instead.
- mettamage 6y ago
  I experience this in a sense when I meditate deeply (= a 10 day retreat, 10 hours per day). What I see in my field of vision, I then feel in my body. It's a whole new information channel that I'm able to tap into, and it's lightning quick. It tapered down a bit since I'm not meditating anymore, but it didn't fully go away (this was 8 years ago). What I think that happens: my insula attached to the default mode network and is feeding information into it. It gives the ability of being much more sensitive at certain forms of empathy. I remember before I went in thinking: research says I'll be better at emotional intelligence when I do this, I wonder what will happen. 10 days later I realized I became a lot better at empathy. So my emotional intelligence did grow :) There's quite some research on this, but I'm going to be lazy and simply recommend Search Inside Yourself. Disclaimer: the experience discussed in this comment is one of the reasons why I chose my username back in the day. So I'm biased.
  - sethammons 6y ago
    Care to plug the retreat? Or a similar option?
    - mettamage 6y ago
      Hmm... Yes, I guess? The issue is: the practice that I got was amazing, but the theory is... not worth listening to. Fortunately, it was cheap, so 10 hours of practice and 1 hour of entertainment (is what I called it) was fine. http://dhamma.org/ http://dhamma.org/ Though, if others have other Vipassana retreats, then don't consider this one as better. Also: I wouldn't go in expecting that you'll experience my description above. However, you can go in with the idea that you're training your emotional intelligence, somehow. It's up to you to discover how it happened. For me the effect was screamingly obvious. But I can't guarantee that it will be for you and if it isn't then it's tough to distinguish it from placebo. With all those disclaimers in place, the above website is where I did a retreat (3 times now).
zepolen 6y ago
Just drink a couple beers and you'll discover the secret...not caring.
- barry-cotter 6y ago
  I can’t really recommend it because of how likely you are to do something stupid but lots and lots of alcohol fueled socializing is how I leveled up my social skills over the course of one summer. It also caused an audible change in the prosody of my speech, going from unusually monotone to more expressive.
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  Caring is a big one. And for that I may just tell them Im socially handicapped jokingly and then immediately I stop caring and become more social. Sure, there are some limits, I still have a hard time being at large parties where the noise is disorienting and find myself stepping out for some fresh air more frequently. These interactions drain my batteries but are sometimes necessary.
BiteCode_dev 6y ago
I would advice to get a hold on the book "The inner game of tennis", which is, exactly like it sounds, a book on tennis training. Except when it's not. It hold advices that can be generalized to improve your ability to learn without using analysis and develop natural actions in a given field. Apply it to social interactions. Those are much better for everyone involved when you mostly instinctively react, yet subtly adjust using logic, not the opposite.
- kstenerud 6y ago
  I spent my early 20s doing this, and stopped after a few caring people pulled me aside and told me to stop doing strange things X, Y, Z.
  - BiteCode_dev 6y ago
    This happens if you miss the "subtly adjust using logic" step.
fpoling 6y ago
In many cases it is pointless to ask a person why they are good at a particular skill. At best on get a honest answer that a person does not know. At worst one hears an elaborated story that at first sounds plausible, but then a realization comes that it was just a construct that the person believed themselves but that had no value at training the skill. It is much more productive to simply watch the videos how people are doing it.
RivieraKid 6y ago
I think that the key is whether you're using system 1 or system 2 thinking in social situation. It's a concept popularized by Thinking, Fast and Slow. System 1 is automatic, effortless, quick - for example face recognition. System 2 is deliberate, tiring, slow - think of solving an equation. It's kind of similar to unconscious vs conscious. When people are naturally good in social situations, they're primarily using system 1 for decision making such as "what should my facial expression be". It's kind of a state of flow, in which system 2 mostly just observes what system 1 is doing, without micromanaging every face muscle, intonation, sentence, etc. This may also be a reason why introverts find social interaction tiring. (This is just my understanding.)
jariel 6y ago
Yes, most people are naturally sociable and don't think about it. A lot of extroverted people are intelligently sociable and are very aware of what's going on, to the point it's natural for them. I think that most of those people kind of assume others are the same way and so might not be quite as sympathetic to those with low EI.
bitwize 6y ago
They don't know how they do it because they delegate it to specialized hardware. You have specialized hardware too but your brain has repurposed it to other tasks. You have to train yourself to do social interaction, and you can get pretty good at it. The people who have it implemented in hardware, however, unconsciously employ a series of tests to determine whether you're ingroup or outgroup. Some of these tests are timing-based and you will flunk if you cannot produce the correct social response at the correct time. Difficult to do unless you're hardwired with their ingroup's form of social programming.

scandox 6y ago

Well unfortunately there are people that can perfectly conceal their true feelings and intentions. Perhaps they are the ones that you need to interview. Though I suppose by definition they won't be very forthcoming.

kstenerud 6y ago
That's actually an interesting topic in itself. It's been observed that many sociopaths and psychopaths don't spend long on one person. I wonder if it's because they eventually give off enough tells that others start to notice...
- ChuckMcM 6y ago
  That has been my experience with people I know who exhibit sociopathic tendencies. One of the more interesting tells is a projection onto people who can see that they are pretending.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    What do you mean? That they call them psychopaths?
    - loopz 6y ago
      That is an impossible accusation, as you could be wrong (plus too honest for own good), but the person would be masking better than you as well! Anyway, personal traits aren't criminal. I've heard sociopaths even excuse their "eccentric inattention to others" as possibly having asperger tendencies! Most people still lack experience to even understand they are poles apart. Regarding projections, burn the "rule book". Setting up "outside" people for failure is common but not enough to distinguish. Bullying, condescending remarks, getting others to chime in. It starts with boasting about the last victim, then you're next. Only thing that can stop it is people stop tolerating abuse in their environment. USA is now "it".
      - ChuckMcM 6y ago
        Agree with this. I also realize I wasn't clear here, so lets says you have a person A who is a sociopath talk to person B. After that interaction person A comes to person C (me in this example) and says "I don't know, they strike me as a sociopath." Now in these cases, when I've had enough interaction with Person A in other situations, to feel confident in my understanding of their challenges, and when the feedback on Person B from other sources are not reflective of that perception, and are typically hard over the other way ("this person is so empathic" kinds of things). I hypothesize that the body language of Person B was signaling to Person A that their masking was not as effective as they would have liked. The other thing I wanted to be clear about is that it isn't a judgement about them either way, people are who they are. What is important as a manager is understanding the dynamics of your team and how they perceive the world and evaluate it. One has to do that if you have any chance at all of working together effectively.
        loopz 6y ago
        If A is a bully, categorize B as possible future mark. This for very few A, B and opportunity. If A is not a conscious bully (for lack of a better term), B could be perceived as artificial, weak, blunt, out of bounds, insulting, exploitative, etc. Reaction is to push "out" and "defend", maybe "as if" leader. Introspection at A may overcome reaction, though may need reassurance from respected source (=leadership). A and B will probably never work great together, though minimal interaction can work consciously. How A and B relates defines span of real org culture (in heaven).
- vmception 6y ago
  Some of my business partners are sociopaths and psychopaths. (Despite the various people that will clarify the difference, I feel like these are not mutually exclusive terms.) Sometimes they want to do fraudulent things and are obviously willing to implicate others and I just steer them away and give them another option. I think they like that they are spotted but not shunned. Or maybe I'm a mark to them, or maybe I'm a sociopath too. To the top of society you say? That's the plan.. But they aren't retreating because they've been found out. I just point out how the legitimate way is actually more lucrative. (ie. maybe they want a commission deal on an impossible financial product that a client is interested in because the risks haven't been disclosed, I tell them we can offer a legitimate financial product with 2% management fees and 20% of profits and make way more money)
jaggederest 6y ago
I think it's very interesting. I, like I suppose many people in this thread, am virtually always consciously masking in interactions with people. I'm also happy to explain this to folks who are interested, and I haven't ever been called out on it, so you could say that I'm "perfect" in that regard. I doubt whether I adhere perfectly to "normal" behavior, but people don't ask about it, at least. I think it's just a matter of effective control of yourself and a full understanding of the people and situation you're in. Most people on the spectrum struggle with the understanding bit, or the control bit, or both. I'm really lucky in that I'm pretty decent at both halves, so I don't think there's a true "secret to learn", it's more about capacity and ability. The biggest thing I've learned is that I don't really like myself when I'm in full-facsimile mode, and so I consciously try to lower the facade whenever possible, but it's difficult after a lifetime of training by social sanctions.
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  > The biggest thing I've learned is that I don't really like myself when I'm in full-facsimile mode, and so I consciously try to lower the facade whenever possible, but it's difficult after a lifetime of training by social sanctions Care to elaborate on this? What is the facsimile mode? My intuition tells me it’s the mirroring of the social interaction. If that’s what you mean I might have similar feelings towards it, I sometimes find some interactions awkward if I am too aware. If im lost in the flow it all goes much better
  - jaggederest 6y ago
    I just mean being fully in the facade of making all the expressions, gestures, and small talk stuff. Basically acting "normal" as much as I can. It's a lot of work, and it feels very fake. It feels disrespectful of the people around me, if I don't "mean it" when I say "Hey how's it going" and talk about the weather and sports and smile and nod.
    - onemoresoop 6y ago
      I cannot do facade at all but I could comfortably be me under certain conditions: under low noise environment both physical and information, if I am not stressed out for another reason. I do feel awkward if I present something and I am not prepared but under certain conditions also I can wing it out nicely. It does depend a lot on whether I fit in within a group or not. If you think about it, forcing it when it's not there is really not very productive. I am still not sure whether I am on the spectrum and wouldn't help me out much to be diagnosed, I've accepted a long time ago that I am somewhat different from the norm but not necessarily in a bad way, I simply am not a very good speaking person - I do excel in other modes of communication, just not with words. But I guess with hard work one can train to perform something that they're not natively apt to do just to get the job done, one doesn't have to strive to be best because that puts too much pressure and leads to stress. I hope you be compassionate and comfortable with yourself:) Let me ask you one more thing. Do you dance at all? If not can you describe why not? I'm very curious.
barry-cotter 6y ago
There are far more people who effortlessly self-modify to believe and feel what is most socially helpful, without conscious consideration. We call them “normal”.

surfpel 6y ago

I have become close to several extremely social people and discussed this quite a bit. I realized that they approach socializing the same way I approach engineering and the like. At a party they clearly see the subtle or not so subtle effects of their actions and gauge the situation on a meta level without even really realizing that they’re doing it. It’s almost as though some of my neural circuitry originally intended for socializing was applied to an awareness of “things” instead.

mettamage 6y ago
I experience this in a sense when I meditate deeply (= a 10 day retreat, 10 hours per day). What I see in my field of vision, I then feel in my body. It's a whole new information channel that I'm able to tap into, and it's lightning quick. It tapered down a bit since I'm not meditating anymore, but it didn't fully go away (this was 8 years ago). What I think that happens: my insula attached to the default mode network and is feeding information into it. It gives the ability of being much more sensitive at certain forms of empathy. I remember before I went in thinking: research says I'll be better at emotional intelligence when I do this, I wonder what will happen. 10 days later I realized I became a lot better at empathy. So my emotional intelligence did grow :) There's quite some research on this, but I'm going to be lazy and simply recommend Search Inside Yourself. Disclaimer: the experience discussed in this comment is one of the reasons why I chose my username back in the day. So I'm biased.
- sethammons 6y ago
  Care to plug the retreat? Or a similar option?
  - mettamage 6y ago
    Hmm... Yes, I guess? The issue is: the practice that I got was amazing, but the theory is... not worth listening to. Fortunately, it was cheap, so 10 hours of practice and 1 hour of entertainment (is what I called it) was fine. http://dhamma.org/ http://dhamma.org/ Though, if others have other Vipassana retreats, then don't consider this one as better. Also: I wouldn't go in expecting that you'll experience my description above. However, you can go in with the idea that you're training your emotional intelligence, somehow. It's up to you to discover how it happened. For me the effect was screamingly obvious. But I can't guarantee that it will be for you and if it isn't then it's tough to distinguish it from placebo. With all those disclaimers in place, the above website is where I did a retreat (3 times now).

zepolen 6y ago

Just drink a couple beers and you'll discover the secret...not caring.

barry-cotter 6y ago
I can’t really recommend it because of how likely you are to do something stupid but lots and lots of alcohol fueled socializing is how I leveled up my social skills over the course of one summer. It also caused an audible change in the prosody of my speech, going from unusually monotone to more expressive.
onemoresoop 6y ago
Caring is a big one. And for that I may just tell them Im socially handicapped jokingly and then immediately I stop caring and become more social. Sure, there are some limits, I still have a hard time being at large parties where the noise is disorienting and find myself stepping out for some fresh air more frequently. These interactions drain my batteries but are sometimes necessary.

BiteCode_dev 6y ago

I would advice to get a hold on the book "The inner game of tennis", which is, exactly like it sounds, a book on tennis training. Except when it's not. It hold advices that can be generalized to improve your ability to learn without using analysis and develop natural actions in a given field. Apply it to social interactions. Those are much better for everyone involved when you mostly instinctively react, yet subtly adjust using logic, not the opposite.

kstenerud 6y ago
I spent my early 20s doing this, and stopped after a few caring people pulled me aside and told me to stop doing strange things X, Y, Z.
- BiteCode_dev 6y ago
  This happens if you miss the "subtly adjust using logic" step.

fpoling 6y ago

In many cases it is pointless to ask a person why they are good at a particular skill. At best on get a honest answer that a person does not know. At worst one hears an elaborated story that at first sounds plausible, but then a realization comes that it was just a construct that the person believed themselves but that had no value at training the skill. It is much more productive to simply watch the videos how people are doing it.

RivieraKid 6y ago

I think that the key is whether you're using system 1 or system 2 thinking in social situation. It's a concept popularized by Thinking, Fast and Slow. System 1 is automatic, effortless, quick - for example face recognition. System 2 is deliberate, tiring, slow - think of solving an equation. It's kind of similar to unconscious vs conscious. When people are naturally good in social situations, they're primarily using system 1 for decision making such as "what should my facial expression be". It's kind of a state of flow, in which system 2 mostly just observes what system 1 is doing, without micromanaging every face muscle, intonation, sentence, etc. This may also be a reason why introverts find social interaction tiring. (This is just my understanding.)

jariel 6y ago

Yes, most people are naturally sociable and don't think about it. A lot of extroverted people are intelligently sociable and are very aware of what's going on, to the point it's natural for them. I think that most of those people kind of assume others are the same way and so might not be quite as sympathetic to those with low EI.

bitwize 6y ago

They don't know how they do it because they delegate it to specialized hardware. You have specialized hardware too but your brain has repurposed it to other tasks. You have to train yourself to do social interaction, and you can get pretty good at it. The people who have it implemented in hardware, however, unconsciously employ a series of tests to determine whether you're ingroup or outgroup. Some of these tests are timing-based and you will flunk if you cannot produce the correct social response at the correct time. Difficult to do unless you're hardwired with their ingroup's form of social programming.