6 ms·

What’s the situation with Nordic police and minorities? Because in the not really Nordic but reasonably civilized Netherlands the supposedly well educated polic

by mtts 6y ago

What’s the situation with Nordic police and minorities? Because in the not really Nordic but reasonably civilized Netherlands the supposedly well educated police force is also a known hotbed of racism. Members of the police force in The Hague refer to themselves as “exterminators of Moroccan vermin”. Ethnic profiling is rampant and on at least one occasion a man of color was held down by a group of cops until he died as well. At least part of the problem is cops themselves.

tokai 6y ago
Police in Denmark are bullies too. Breaking basic rights, assaulting citizens, covering for each other, lobbying against body cams and visible identifiers on cops like numbers, etc. Profiling is legal and used extensively.
- ficklepickle 6y ago
  Until we realize that tribalism is human nature, it won't change. Racism is universal amongst humans. We are tribal primates, after all. We need to admit the biases exist and address them head-on. It stands to reason that having a bias against out groups once increased an individuals chance of survival. Now it is actively harming society. If we can't rise above our primitive impulses, we are doomed.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I agree with what you're saying, but I think it's important to understand that the actual politics of reform pose a serious obstacle to admitting biases exist. If a police department produced a document saying "10% of our officers are moderately to severely racist, we're aiming to get that below 3%", they'd be eviscerated.
  - bsanr2 6y ago
    Bigotry is universal amongst humans. Racism is a systematic application of that bigotry such that it can operate on an "undesirable" population with or without the consent of the people supporting and maintaining that system. Racism is not a natural sociological phenomenon; it is a deliberate effort to twist the nature of human behavior and cognition towards cruel, cynical, violent, and destructive ends. We need to stop telling ourselves these lies about who we are and what we're capable of.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- collyw 6y ago
  Profiling is seen as bad, but I honestly don't think many grandmas will be the ones committing violent crime (or females in general). If you have some statistics to prove otherwise please show me them.
  - mtts 6y ago
    Someone once explained it to me like this: Let's say 1% of the population commits crimes. Let's also, for the sake of argument, say all crimes are committed by black people. Of the general population, 10% is black. If you profile all black people, you will indeed profile the 1% of the population that commits crimes, but you will also profile 9% of the population that does not commit crimes. And before you say "not the entirety of the 10% black population is profiled": maybe ask some black people about this. It's not 100% of the black population that gets profiled but certainly a very significant percentage. And even if it's just half or even a quarter of the black population that you're profiling, you're still profiling a lot of innocent people. This is the reason why profiling is bad. (and note that in reality the figures are even worse).
    - collyw 6y ago
      So it better to target 99% of the population that don't commit crimes rather that 9%? You haven't convinced me. Interesting that you chose black people for your example, its almost like you are profiling them.
      - leetcrew 6y ago
        it's better not to target any fraction of the population until you have some reason to suspect that an individual has committed a crime.
    - roenxi 6y ago
      The conclusion doesn't really follow from the premise. If all crime were committed by one racial group it would be madness not to use that information to target crime-fighting measures. If there are credible reports of a white man committing murders it doesn't make any sense to waste resources listing mainly female Asian suspects, for example. There are also other similar issues. For example, if a crime happens on my street I expect to be treated as more of a suspect based only on my proximity. The issue of racism is (and needs to be) grounded in things other than rational resource allocation.
fsloth 6y ago
I don't know about minorities but the level of unprofessionalism obvious in the most egregious cases of police violence would feel improbable to me in countries like Sweden ,Finland or Norway. Yeah, they are tiny countries so the sample size is really small. But the police culture is different. Guns are not used, and if they are, their use is strictly monitored. For example, Finland has a large number of firearms, but police don't come to a crime scene guns ablaze unless they have a very good reason to think there is a need to use them.

by mtts 6y ago

tokai 6y ago

Police in Denmark are bullies too. Breaking basic rights, assaulting citizens, covering for each other, lobbying against body cams and visible identifiers on cops like numbers, etc. Profiling is legal and used extensively.

ficklepickle 6y ago
Until we realize that tribalism is human nature, it won't change. Racism is universal amongst humans. We are tribal primates, after all. We need to admit the biases exist and address them head-on. It stands to reason that having a bias against out groups once increased an individuals chance of survival. Now it is actively harming society. If we can't rise above our primitive impulses, we are doomed.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I agree with what you're saying, but I think it's important to understand that the actual politics of reform pose a serious obstacle to admitting biases exist. If a police department produced a document saying "10% of our officers are moderately to severely racist, we're aiming to get that below 3%", they'd be eviscerated.
- bsanr2 6y ago
  Bigotry is universal amongst humans. Racism is a systematic application of that bigotry such that it can operate on an "undesirable" population with or without the consent of the people supporting and maintaining that system. Racism is not a natural sociological phenomenon; it is a deliberate effort to twist the nature of human behavior and cognition towards cruel, cynical, violent, and destructive ends. We need to stop telling ourselves these lies about who we are and what we're capable of.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
collyw 6y ago
Profiling is seen as bad, but I honestly don't think many grandmas will be the ones committing violent crime (or females in general). If you have some statistics to prove otherwise please show me them.
- mtts 6y ago
  Someone once explained it to me like this: Let's say 1% of the population commits crimes. Let's also, for the sake of argument, say all crimes are committed by black people. Of the general population, 10% is black. If you profile all black people, you will indeed profile the 1% of the population that commits crimes, but you will also profile 9% of the population that does not commit crimes. And before you say "not the entirety of the 10% black population is profiled": maybe ask some black people about this. It's not 100% of the black population that gets profiled but certainly a very significant percentage. And even if it's just half or even a quarter of the black population that you're profiling, you're still profiling a lot of innocent people. This is the reason why profiling is bad. (and note that in reality the figures are even worse).
  - collyw 6y ago
    So it better to target 99% of the population that don't commit crimes rather that 9%? You haven't convinced me. Interesting that you chose black people for your example, its almost like you are profiling them.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      it's better not to target any fraction of the population until you have some reason to suspect that an individual has committed a crime.
  - roenxi 6y ago
    The conclusion doesn't really follow from the premise. If all crime were committed by one racial group it would be madness not to use that information to target crime-fighting measures. If there are credible reports of a white man committing murders it doesn't make any sense to waste resources listing mainly female Asian suspects, for example. There are also other similar issues. For example, if a crime happens on my street I expect to be treated as more of a suspect based only on my proximity. The issue of racism is (and needs to be) grounded in things other than rational resource allocation.

fsloth 6y ago

I don't know about minorities but the level of unprofessionalism obvious in the most egregious cases of police violence would feel improbable to me in countries like Sweden ,Finland or Norway. Yeah, they are tiny countries so the sample size is really small. But the police culture is different. Guns are not used, and if they are, their use is strictly monitored. For example, Finland has a large number of firearms, but police don't come to a crime scene guns ablaze unless they have a very good reason to think there is a need to use them.