8 ms·

The Battle of Helm’s Deep, Part V: Ladders Are Chaos

260 points by danso 6y ago

dddddaviddddd 6y ago
I've really enjoyed this blog -- it's changed the way that I envision the past. I particularly enjoyed the lonely city series of articles where the author emphasizes how pre-modern agricultural economies used land, and that the vast majority of people and activity were tied closely to agriculture.
MattyRad 6y ago
Instead of starting with the Helm's Deep series, I would recommend starting with the Siege of Gondor series, which was written earlier and is a little easier to follow IMO https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/ https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondo... It's an excellent mix of fiction, history, tactics (operations!), pop culture, and filmography. It's probably one of the best things I've ever read
- danso 6y ago
  Yes! FWIW, at least one from that series was highly discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21663852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21663852
_bxg1 6y ago
Extremely entertaining. You might expect this kind of write-up to be dry (and it is, to be fair, incredibly long), but the author has a snappy sense of humor and an engaging style
hansthehorse 6y ago
The series on Sparta here is worth reading.
- belval 6y ago
  I can second this, the Sparta articles are one of the finest debunking of a pop culture myth that I have ever encountered.
siquick 6y ago
Are there any video games which simulate sieges like the one at Helms Deep - Kind of like Command and Conquer for sieges?
- arronax 6y ago
  Not sure how closely it can simulate a siege at Helms Deep, but Stronghold back in 00s seemed to be quite good overall at depicting siege warfare.
  - rnestler 6y ago
    I'd recommend https://fireflyworlds.com/games/stronghold/ https://fireflyworlds.com/games/stronghold/ as well. Apparently there is a HD edition available, but I haven't tried it so far.
- danso 6y ago
  Mount and Blade Warband, which has a sequel in early release named Bannerlord, has large medieval sieges and community LOTR mods: https://youtu.be/a4Yldd_BT3A https://youtu.be/a4Yldd_BT3A https://youtu.be/ZOcZDlUSMng https://youtu.be/ZOcZDlUSMng
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- polytely 6y ago
  I think your best bet would be the Total War series. https://youtu.be/QvlSB9_NGTQ?t=521 https://youtu.be/QvlSB9_NGTQ?t=521
  - throwanem 6y ago
    Worth mentioning that Bret Devereaux, author of the piece (and blog) under discussion here, has some salt in other articles for the Total War series' effect on his students' perception of how ancient and medieval battles worked. Fun if you're into that sort of thing, but not to be taken overly seriously, is the impression I've gathered.
jordanbeiber 6y ago
Just watched the LOTR movies again last week and my wife and I complained specifically about how unrealistic, or simply bad, the attack on Helms Deep seemed. For starters, that this article pops up just days after our discussion blew my mind. The analysis really brings to light the depth of Tolkien. What could easily be chalked up to a standard large scale mindless action-movie (or book - even if the book is more nuanced) event is actually purposefully showing Sarumans arrogance, as well as ignorance. Finally, this qoute made me think of a few enterprise software projects I’ve had to deal with as well: > This is, I must say, a common mistake of amateurs – to propose extremely complex battle plans which could win the day on a computer or in an armchair discussion, but which are so complex that actually implementing them in the fog of war is nearly impossible.
- arethuza 6y ago
  Doesn't that last sentence pretty much sum up the Western Front in WW1 (from the Schlieffen Plan onwards)?
- sopooneo 6y ago
  There must be some formal and rigorous way to argue against such crazy complex plans. Because I've seen my share as well, almost universally disastrous. Perhaps they are optimizing for the "best possible" outcome rather than the "most likely" outcome? And I feel like that could be illustrated with a probability distribution. There would be bulge above "bad" on the horizontal and just the thinnest tail poking rightwards towards "great".
  - ordu 6y ago
    If a plan depends on a huge number of things going just the right way, there is a high probability of something going not as desired. Intelligent officers could find a way around some of deviations from the plan, but they might not, because they lack a complete picture of the battle, because they might be not intelligent enough to devise a creative solution at the time, and because there a limits to the possible. The more ways plan could go wrong, the more probability it would go wrong. The more deviations from the plan, the less probability than officers will be able to overcome them. And one more thing: at war there is an enemy who will do anything to make life of your troops more difficult. Disrupting communications, disinformation, unexpected attacs and troops placement... there are a lot of ways, so even there is just one prerequisite for a plan to work, there is a good deal of a probability than it would go wrong. In HPMoR[1] Yudkowski mocked complex plans, and proposed a rule: > That was when Father had told Draco about the Rule of Three, which was that any plot which required more than three different things to happen would never work in real life. > Father had further explained that since only a fool would attempt a plot that was as complicated as possible, the real limit was two. [1] http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/24 http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/24
lfnoise 6y ago
"The slits are wider facing outward to allow a wider range of firing angles and narrow on the inside to protect the archers." That's exactly the opposite of any castle I've ever seen. That would funnel arrows into the castle. See "Arrowslit" in Wikipedia: "The interior walls behind an arrow loop are often cut away at an oblique angle so that the archer has a wide field of view and field of fire."
- arethuza 6y ago
  Not sure if this is relevant or not, but I'm pretty sure the equivalents designs for cannons (e.g. on the walls of Fort George in Scotland) are as described and are widest on the outward part. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_George,_Highland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_George,_Highland
  - m4rtink 6y ago
    Sure, but those usually have a gun shield protecting the gun crew & it is done due to the gun barrel being long & the gun being heavy, so it is better to mount it on a single point, instead to jave it traverse on a curve (which is not a problem for an archer).
    - arethuza 6y ago
      Did 18th century cannons have gun shields?
      - KineticLensman 6y ago
        Apparently not [0]. IANA cannon expert but I think in the 18th C their biggest threat would have been from cavalry rather than sharpshooting infantry or precision fire from other cannon. [0] https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=18+century++cannon&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj1n7-70-DpAhUO2OAKHV_ECvUQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=18+century++cannon&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIGCAAQChAYUP8mWJpeYOhjaARwAHgAgAE3iAG6BJIBAjEymAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWc&sclient=img&ei=MvnUXvW-Eo6wgwffiKuoDw&bih=950&biw=1640&hl=en https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=18+century++cannon&tbm=isc...
chx 6y ago
Let's start with the most jarring aspect of the movie Helm's Deep scene: the elves! So said Elrond in the Council: > Never again shall there be any such league of Elves and Men; for Men multiply and the Firstborn decrease, and the two kindreds are estranged. And ever since that day the race of Numenor has decayed, and the span of their years has lessened." Haldir: > we dwell now in the heart of the forest, and do not willingly have dealings with any other folk. It is indeed perhaps the biggest fault of the otherwise excellent movies. Replacing Glorfindel with Arwen didn't bother me at all, for example.
- valarauko 6y ago
  True, and this is emblematic of the changes in the Two Towers that easily made it the worst of the series for me. Though, I can empathize with why some of these changes were made. The text of the Two Towers as it exists on the page has practically no elves in it. We are shown wanton destruction of the Westfold and the immense suffering in Rohan, yet we must buy they will soon ride to the aid of Gondor. The Battle of Helm's Deep is pitched as an existential fight for Rohan, and to have the Elves sit this one out would likely come across as extremely self-centered to modern audiences. Whatever the Elder Folk may have suffered in the past, they are the most organized and best equipped in Middle Earth. To have them sit out the destruction of Rohan in their literal Ivory towers would probably alienate audiences.
lorthemar 6y ago
Now I have to watch the trilogy :) I probably know all the dialogues by heart now but still, it will be a good exercise to study the battles rather than just watching them. I always thought that the assault was poorly planned blindly charging the wall, the berserker etc. But I never thought of it as a strategical mistake. Rather I thought it was more about the characteristics of the Uruk. Fearless horde of savages charging without any fear.
Dumblydorr 6y ago
He buried the lead here. Why title it ladders and not mention them for pages?

260 points by danso 6y ago

I've really enjoyed this blog -- it's changed the way that I envision the past. I particularly enjoyed the lonely city series of articles where the author emphasizes how pre-modern agricultural economies used land, and that the vast majority of people and activity were tied closely to agriculture.

MattyRad 6y ago

Instead of starting with the Helm's Deep series, I would recommend starting with the Siege of Gondor series, which was written earlier and is a little easier to follow IMO https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/ https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondo... It's an excellent mix of fiction, history, tactics (operations!), pop culture, and filmography. It's probably one of the best things I've ever read

danso 6y ago
Yes! FWIW, at least one from that series was highly discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21663852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21663852

_bxg1 6y ago

Extremely entertaining. You might expect this kind of write-up to be dry (and it is, to be fair, incredibly long), but the author has a snappy sense of humor and an engaging style

hansthehorse 6y ago

The series on Sparta here is worth reading.

belval 6y ago
I can second this, the Sparta articles are one of the finest debunking of a pop culture myth that I have ever encountered.

siquick 6y ago

Are there any video games which simulate sieges like the one at Helms Deep - Kind of like Command and Conquer for sieges?

arronax 6y ago
Not sure how closely it can simulate a siege at Helms Deep, but Stronghold back in 00s seemed to be quite good overall at depicting siege warfare.
- rnestler 6y ago
  I'd recommend https://fireflyworlds.com/games/stronghold/ https://fireflyworlds.com/games/stronghold/ as well. Apparently there is a HD edition available, but I haven't tried it so far.
danso 6y ago
Mount and Blade Warband, which has a sequel in early release named Bannerlord, has large medieval sieges and community LOTR mods: https://youtu.be/a4Yldd_BT3A https://youtu.be/a4Yldd_BT3A https://youtu.be/ZOcZDlUSMng https://youtu.be/ZOcZDlUSMng
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
polytely 6y ago
I think your best bet would be the Total War series. https://youtu.be/QvlSB9_NGTQ?t=521 https://youtu.be/QvlSB9_NGTQ?t=521
- throwanem 6y ago
  Worth mentioning that Bret Devereaux, author of the piece (and blog) under discussion here, has some salt in other articles for the Total War series' effect on his students' perception of how ancient and medieval battles worked. Fun if you're into that sort of thing, but not to be taken overly seriously, is the impression I've gathered.

jordanbeiber 6y ago

Just watched the LOTR movies again last week and my wife and I complained specifically about how unrealistic, or simply bad, the attack on Helms Deep seemed. For starters, that this article pops up just days after our discussion blew my mind. The analysis really brings to light the depth of Tolkien. What could easily be chalked up to a standard large scale mindless action-movie (or book - even if the book is more nuanced) event is actually purposefully showing Sarumans arrogance, as well as ignorance. Finally, this qoute made me think of a few enterprise software projects I’ve had to deal with as well: > This is, I must say, a common mistake of amateurs – to propose extremely complex battle plans which could win the day on a computer or in an armchair discussion, but which are so complex that actually implementing them in the fog of war is nearly impossible.

arethuza 6y ago
Doesn't that last sentence pretty much sum up the Western Front in WW1 (from the Schlieffen Plan onwards)?
sopooneo 6y ago
There must be some formal and rigorous way to argue against such crazy complex plans. Because I've seen my share as well, almost universally disastrous. Perhaps they are optimizing for the "best possible" outcome rather than the "most likely" outcome? And I feel like that could be illustrated with a probability distribution. There would be bulge above "bad" on the horizontal and just the thinnest tail poking rightwards towards "great".
- ordu 6y ago
  If a plan depends on a huge number of things going just the right way, there is a high probability of something going not as desired. Intelligent officers could find a way around some of deviations from the plan, but they might not, because they lack a complete picture of the battle, because they might be not intelligent enough to devise a creative solution at the time, and because there a limits to the possible. The more ways plan could go wrong, the more probability it would go wrong. The more deviations from the plan, the less probability than officers will be able to overcome them. And one more thing: at war there is an enemy who will do anything to make life of your troops more difficult. Disrupting communications, disinformation, unexpected attacs and troops placement... there are a lot of ways, so even there is just one prerequisite for a plan to work, there is a good deal of a probability than it would go wrong. In HPMoR[1] Yudkowski mocked complex plans, and proposed a rule: > That was when Father had told Draco about the Rule of Three, which was that any plot which required more than three different things to happen would never work in real life. > Father had further explained that since only a fool would attempt a plot that was as complicated as possible, the real limit was two. [1] http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/24 http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/24

lfnoise 6y ago

"The slits are wider facing outward to allow a wider range of firing angles and narrow on the inside to protect the archers." That's exactly the opposite of any castle I've ever seen. That would funnel arrows into the castle. See "Arrowslit" in Wikipedia: "The interior walls behind an arrow loop are often cut away at an oblique angle so that the archer has a wide field of view and field of fire."

arethuza 6y ago
Not sure if this is relevant or not, but I'm pretty sure the equivalents designs for cannons (e.g. on the walls of Fort George in Scotland) are as described and are widest on the outward part. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_George,_Highland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_George,_Highland
- m4rtink 6y ago
  Sure, but those usually have a gun shield protecting the gun crew & it is done due to the gun barrel being long & the gun being heavy, so it is better to mount it on a single point, instead to jave it traverse on a curve (which is not a problem for an archer).
  - arethuza 6y ago
    Did 18th century cannons have gun shields?
    - KineticLensman 6y ago
      Apparently not [0]. IANA cannon expert but I think in the 18th C their biggest threat would have been from cavalry rather than sharpshooting infantry or precision fire from other cannon. [0] https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=18+century++cannon&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj1n7-70-DpAhUO2OAKHV_ECvUQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=18+century++cannon&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIGCAAQChAYUP8mWJpeYOhjaARwAHgAgAE3iAG6BJIBAjEymAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWc&sclient=img&ei=MvnUXvW-Eo6wgwffiKuoDw&bih=950&biw=1640&hl=en https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=18+century++cannon&tbm=isc...

chx 6y ago

Let's start with the most jarring aspect of the movie Helm's Deep scene: the elves! So said Elrond in the Council: > Never again shall there be any such league of Elves and Men; for Men multiply and the Firstborn decrease, and the two kindreds are estranged. And ever since that day the race of Numenor has decayed, and the span of their years has lessened." Haldir: > we dwell now in the heart of the forest, and do not willingly have dealings with any other folk. It is indeed perhaps the biggest fault of the otherwise excellent movies. Replacing Glorfindel with Arwen didn't bother me at all, for example.

valarauko 6y ago
True, and this is emblematic of the changes in the Two Towers that easily made it the worst of the series for me. Though, I can empathize with why some of these changes were made. The text of the Two Towers as it exists on the page has practically no elves in it. We are shown wanton destruction of the Westfold and the immense suffering in Rohan, yet we must buy they will soon ride to the aid of Gondor. The Battle of Helm's Deep is pitched as an existential fight for Rohan, and to have the Elves sit this one out would likely come across as extremely self-centered to modern audiences. Whatever the Elder Folk may have suffered in the past, they are the most organized and best equipped in Middle Earth. To have them sit out the destruction of Rohan in their literal Ivory towers would probably alienate audiences.

lorthemar 6y ago

Now I have to watch the trilogy :) I probably know all the dialogues by heart now but still, it will be a good exercise to study the battles rather than just watching them. I always thought that the assault was poorly planned blindly charging the wall, the berserker etc. But I never thought of it as a strategical mistake. Rather I thought it was more about the characteristics of the Uruk. Fearless horde of savages charging without any fear.

Dumblydorr 6y ago

He buried the lead here. Why title it ladders and not mention them for pages?