6 ms·

Elon Musk is the greatest American alive.

ardit33 6y ago
he is not american though.... he is from South Africa... So, yea +1 for 'smart immigration' in the US. Edit: Elon has South African, Canadian and US citizenship... so, what he calls/considers himself, it is up to him.
- CraftThatBlock 6y ago
  Non-natural born American is still American. This is what immigration is.
  - ardit33 6y ago
    Immigrant myself, came in this country when I was 17 from Albania, and have lived most of my life here (on my late 30s now). While feeling 'american' is a subjective thing (I consider myself Albanian), There are still limitations. A naturalized citizen, can't be a US president, and in rare circumstances you can be stripped of your citizenship (it is called 'denaturalization'). So, yeah.... lets live it up to him to call himself whatever he wants, but calling him American is like calling Einstein/Tesla/Von Brown american. Sure, they got US citizenship at some point... but that's not how Ethnicity works.
    - pmorici 6y ago
      That is perhaps literally the only limitation and even that isn’t absolute since the law could be changed for a candidate with the right support.
    - macinjosh 6y ago
      'American' is not an ethnicity. That is a big reason it is so great. If America is such an awful place why are you here and not in albania? Why did Einstein et al. come here? The American system enables things that are impossible in other countries.
      - ardit33 6y ago
        Wat... americans born here have no 'ethnicity'? eth·nic·i·ty /eTHˈnisədē/ noun "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition." Also, I love this country... where did I say this place is awful? I live in NYC and I love it. That doesn't mean that I don't love my original country as well, (Albania).
        macinjosh 6y ago
        IMHO, this kind of thinking setups an us vs. them mentality. The best part of America is that anyone who lives here can call themselves an American. It is maximally inclusive. Segregating us into 'immigrants' vs. 'ethnic Americans' is antithetical to the ideals of this imperfect society.
      - macinjosh 6y ago
        @ardit33 I am glad you are here and like it here!!! IMHO all immigrants are great and the US government should never restrict immigration. Regarding 'American' as an ethnicity check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot America is the most diverse place on earth. Ethnicities from all over the world call it home.
  - davrosthedalek 6y ago
    Despite the current political climate, it think this is, at it's core, what /America/ is.
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  You are able to be an immigrant simultaneously while being a citizen of another country.
- criddell 6y ago
  He was born elsewhere, but he became a US citizen around 20 years ago. He's an American.
  - joubert 6y ago
    Holds South African, Canadian, and American citizenship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk
- 101404 6y ago
  He's an African American, but still American. Edit: why the downvote? Is he not?
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    African American != South African immigrant.
    - 101404 6y ago
      What if the South African immigrant was black and had lived in the US for 40 years?
  - benjohnson 6y ago
    Honestly... it's complicated. As I understand it, African-American is one of the more recent ways of saying (with the intent of being polite) that someone is a black skinned and ethnically African and is American. The term was not meant to extend to corner cases like mine - I'm white, but one of my ancestors grew up on the African continent in an island in the Atlantic and spoke Portuguese. I suspect that this term will fall out of favor soon and be replaced by another.
    - 101404 6y ago
      By that logic, does American Asian only refer to people with certain facial characteristics? And are American Europeans only those with a white skin color? I mean here in Europe we have plenty of Europeans that are not white. So, if a black skinned German went to the US, people would suddenly label him "African" American, just based on his skin color? That seems quite a racist use of those terms tbh.
      - krapp 6y ago
        Americans of European descent tend to refer to themselves by nation of immigrant origin (eg: Italian American, Irish American, etc.) However, because African slaves brought to the New World were denied the ability to culturally identify with, or even know (after generations) which African nation or tribe they descended from, the only common cultural identity they could form, apart from that which slavery had forced upon them, was as a diaspora from "Africa" as a whole. "African American" is a term with a specific cultural and historical context behind it linked to the identity of the descendants of slaves and to black immigrants from Africa, and there is controversy about its use even within the black community, but it isn't going to correctly refer to the descendant of white Dutch colonizers in South Africa even if it does technically fit. Or at least not without coming across as racist itself. Consider that racist if you like, but race and culture are messy and complicated everywhere, not just in the US.
- Zenst 6y ago
  Yes the confusion of nationality and geographic labeling of your birthing coordinates are often confused. Kinda why I stick with human a label as that transcends geopolitical baggage of all forms. In space, nobody checks your nationality.
kolanos 6y ago
This achievement likely would not have been possible in the other two nations in which Musk holds citizenship. And I say this as a fellow expat of one of those nations. For all of its faults, the United States is still home to innovation that is unrivaled in the rest of the world.
cryptoz 6y ago
Elon is an absolutely flawed character and is definitely not the 'greatest' American, but let's focus on the grander achievements of SpaceX and NASA both technically and business-wise, rather than the hero worship that Elon often gets.
- jdm2212 6y ago
  The list of living Americans who've done more to rewrite our future -- electronic payments, cheap spaceflight, electric cars, cheap solar power -- is pretty short. Everyone's flawed, great people more than most, and I think Musk legitimately deserves a spot on the top 30 or so greatest living Americans list.
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    I agree with this. Even if he’s an asshole sometimes, he’s an asshole with a vision and the capability to get it done. I guess I prefer that over not having one at all :)
    - runawaybottle 6y ago
      Winning cures all.
- 101404 6y ago
  Really? I mean, every person has some flaws, sure. But most the things he does are just pretty awesome, and usually very good for humanity's future. I'm not a fanboi trying to defend him. I just happen to like most of his projects, both for the technology and for their positive view of the future.
- fasteddie31003 6y ago
  He's probably in the top 0.001% of greatest Americans ever.
- kolanos 6y ago
  We may overemphasize a person's character. I would not trade Musk's achievements for a perfect character, whatever that means.
new_realist 6y ago
Humans have been launched into space for 60 years.
- Zenst 6y ago
  Exactly and no passport has ever been checked in space.
  - myrandomcomment 6y ago
    The astronauts that returned from the moon had to fill out customs & immigration cards on landing. https://www.space.com/7044-moon-apollo-astronauts-customs.html https://www.space.com/7044-moon-apollo-astronauts-customs.ht...
fasteddie31003 6y ago
I think it's hilarious how HN dislikes Elon. Elon is edgy, non-pc, and speaks his mind. All traits I see looked down upon in Silicon Valley.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Elon Musk tends to speak as if he was an expert on subjects he only has cursory knowledge of. Most engineers have, by personal experience, found such people to be giant pains in the ass and would prefer they all just shut up.
  - gfodor 6y ago
    And yet, those pains in the ass often are what is needed to really shake things up. It often seems a messy but necessary thing to make progress.
  - holler 6y ago
    Without those people, the engineers wouldn't have a job. Musk doesn't need to be an expert in every minute detail, he just needs to understand enough to put the picture together.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jacquesm 6y ago
  It's perfectly possible to respect Elon Musk for what he has achieved and at the same time dislike his way of interacting with others.
- dang 6y ago
  HN is a statistical cloud. It doesn't like or dislike. People do that, and also make overgeneralizations. I suspect you're running into the notice-dislike bias (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_media_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_media_effect.
29athrowaway 6y ago
From South Africa.
- macinjosh 6y ago
  And your point is?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - 29athrowaway 6y ago
    American opportunities and education are an important part of what his achievements. That is true. But, he was born and raised in South Africa and moved to the US as an [almost] adult (age 17). If he was born and raised in America, maybe his priorities would have been different to the person we know today.
- philwelch 6y ago
  Many of the greatest Americans were immigrants. Like John Von Neumann, or Alexander Graham Bell, or Andrew Carnegie, or Alexander Hamilton.
  - 29athrowaway 6y ago
    Usually in the English language citizenship and nationality are conflated and people use them interchangeably. You can have multiple citizenships. Musk has 3 (South African, Canadian, American) but his nationality is South African. Also, culturally, he was born and raised in South Africa. Moved to the US for college. If South Africa had the opportunities the US has he would now be likely in Praetoria.
    - philwelch 6y ago
      > If South Africa had the opportunities the US has he would now be likely in Praetoria. And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. In terms of nationality or whatever, Elon Musk is as American as anyone else. Probably more American than most. The American nationality isn't fundamentally based on the circumstances of your birth.
dang 6y ago
Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN. There's literally no content to this sort of discussion other than yay-celeb vs. boo-celeb. Just look at how dumb this subthread is.
- macinjosh 6y ago
  > There's literally no content to this sort of discussion other than yay-celeb vs. boo-celeb Being proud of Elon Musk and my country is not 'ubsubstantive'. It points out the greatness of immigrants, capitalism, technology, entrepreneurship, and everything else that makes America GREAT. > Just look at how vacuous this subthread is. So it is my fault what other's choose to post on HN? Got it!
  - dang 6y ago
    Actually yes, there is a sense in which a comment is partly responsible for the subthread it leads to, because reactions to certain things are so predictable on the internet. That's why concepts like 'flamebait' and 'trolling' exist. Your comment wasn't flamebait, exactly, and definitely not trolling, but it did have the property of being much more likely to lead to a vacuous subthread than a curious one. (Btw, I rotated between 'dumb', 'vacuous', 'lame', and a few other adjectives in the GP before returning to 'dumb'. You saw it in an intermediate state.) Edit: one way of putting this is that the value of an HN comment is the expected value of its future subthread: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20%22expected%20value%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu.... That includes the original comment since a root node is part of its tree. I realize you're just being enthusiastic and am sorry to pee on the party.
    - macinjosh 6y ago
      > Actually yes, there is a sense in which a comment is partly responsible for the subthread it leads to Ah ok, just like people who dress scantily are partly responsible for being raped. /s Solid logic.
happytoexplain 6y ago
I promise I'm not saying this to troll or hate on you: I honestly see Elon falling into the genre of "trolling" that's really just the same kind of shitposting, mockery, and thinly veiled hatred that, in my opinion, is destroying western society. So, while his achievements are huge, when people lavish isolated unqualified worship on the person, Elon Musk, nowadays it's genuinely hard to give them the benefit of the doubt in regards to what they know they are communicating by doing that.

he is not american though.... he is from South Africa... So, yea +1 for 'smart immigration' in the US. Edit: Elon has South African, Canadian and US citizenship... so, what he calls/considers himself, it is up to him.

CraftThatBlock 6y ago
Non-natural born American is still American. This is what immigration is.
- ardit33 6y ago
  Immigrant myself, came in this country when I was 17 from Albania, and have lived most of my life here (on my late 30s now). While feeling 'american' is a subjective thing (I consider myself Albanian), There are still limitations. A naturalized citizen, can't be a US president, and in rare circumstances you can be stripped of your citizenship (it is called 'denaturalization'). So, yeah.... lets live it up to him to call himself whatever he wants, but calling him American is like calling Einstein/Tesla/Von Brown american. Sure, they got US citizenship at some point... but that's not how Ethnicity works.
  - pmorici 6y ago
    That is perhaps literally the only limitation and even that isn’t absolute since the law could be changed for a candidate with the right support.
  - macinjosh 6y ago
    'American' is not an ethnicity. That is a big reason it is so great. If America is such an awful place why are you here and not in albania? Why did Einstein et al. come here? The American system enables things that are impossible in other countries.
    - ardit33 6y ago
      Wat... americans born here have no 'ethnicity'? eth·nic·i·ty /eTHˈnisədē/ noun "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition." Also, I love this country... where did I say this place is awful? I live in NYC and I love it. That doesn't mean that I don't love my original country as well, (Albania).
      - macinjosh 6y ago
        IMHO, this kind of thinking setups an us vs. them mentality. The best part of America is that anyone who lives here can call themselves an American. It is maximally inclusive. Segregating us into 'immigrants' vs. 'ethnic Americans' is antithetical to the ideals of this imperfect society.
    - macinjosh 6y ago
      @ardit33 I am glad you are here and like it here!!! IMHO all immigrants are great and the US government should never restrict immigration. Regarding 'American' as an ethnicity check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot America is the most diverse place on earth. Ethnicities from all over the world call it home.
- davrosthedalek 6y ago
  Despite the current political climate, it think this is, at it's core, what /America/ is.
NikolaeVarius 6y ago
You are able to be an immigrant simultaneously while being a citizen of another country.
criddell 6y ago
He was born elsewhere, but he became a US citizen around 20 years ago. He's an American.
- joubert 6y ago
  Holds South African, Canadian, and American citizenship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk
101404 6y ago
He's an African American, but still American. Edit: why the downvote? Is he not?
- jacquesm 6y ago
  African American != South African immigrant.
  - 101404 6y ago
    What if the South African immigrant was black and had lived in the US for 40 years?
- benjohnson 6y ago
  Honestly... it's complicated. As I understand it, African-American is one of the more recent ways of saying (with the intent of being polite) that someone is a black skinned and ethnically African and is American. The term was not meant to extend to corner cases like mine - I'm white, but one of my ancestors grew up on the African continent in an island in the Atlantic and spoke Portuguese. I suspect that this term will fall out of favor soon and be replaced by another.
  - 101404 6y ago
    By that logic, does American Asian only refer to people with certain facial characteristics? And are American Europeans only those with a white skin color? I mean here in Europe we have plenty of Europeans that are not white. So, if a black skinned German went to the US, people would suddenly label him "African" American, just based on his skin color? That seems quite a racist use of those terms tbh.
    - krapp 6y ago
      Americans of European descent tend to refer to themselves by nation of immigrant origin (eg: Italian American, Irish American, etc.) However, because African slaves brought to the New World were denied the ability to culturally identify with, or even know (after generations) which African nation or tribe they descended from, the only common cultural identity they could form, apart from that which slavery had forced upon them, was as a diaspora from "Africa" as a whole. "African American" is a term with a specific cultural and historical context behind it linked to the identity of the descendants of slaves and to black immigrants from Africa, and there is controversy about its use even within the black community, but it isn't going to correctly refer to the descendant of white Dutch colonizers in South Africa even if it does technically fit. Or at least not without coming across as racist itself. Consider that racist if you like, but race and culture are messy and complicated everywhere, not just in the US.
Zenst 6y ago
Yes the confusion of nationality and geographic labeling of your birthing coordinates are often confused. Kinda why I stick with human a label as that transcends geopolitical baggage of all forms. In space, nobody checks your nationality.

kolanos 6y ago

This achievement likely would not have been possible in the other two nations in which Musk holds citizenship. And I say this as a fellow expat of one of those nations. For all of its faults, the United States is still home to innovation that is unrivaled in the rest of the world.

cryptoz 6y ago

Elon is an absolutely flawed character and is definitely not the 'greatest' American, but let's focus on the grander achievements of SpaceX and NASA both technically and business-wise, rather than the hero worship that Elon often gets.

jdm2212 6y ago
The list of living Americans who've done more to rewrite our future -- electronic payments, cheap spaceflight, electric cars, cheap solar power -- is pretty short. Everyone's flawed, great people more than most, and I think Musk legitimately deserves a spot on the top 30 or so greatest living Americans list.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  I agree with this. Even if he’s an asshole sometimes, he’s an asshole with a vision and the capability to get it done. I guess I prefer that over not having one at all :)
  - runawaybottle 6y ago
    Winning cures all.
101404 6y ago
Really? I mean, every person has some flaws, sure. But most the things he does are just pretty awesome, and usually very good for humanity's future. I'm not a fanboi trying to defend him. I just happen to like most of his projects, both for the technology and for their positive view of the future.
fasteddie31003 6y ago
He's probably in the top 0.001% of greatest Americans ever.
kolanos 6y ago
We may overemphasize a person's character. I would not trade Musk's achievements for a perfect character, whatever that means.

new_realist 6y ago

Humans have been launched into space for 60 years.

Zenst 6y ago
Exactly and no passport has ever been checked in space.
- myrandomcomment 6y ago
  The astronauts that returned from the moon had to fill out customs & immigration cards on landing. https://www.space.com/7044-moon-apollo-astronauts-customs.html https://www.space.com/7044-moon-apollo-astronauts-customs.ht...

fasteddie31003 6y ago

I think it's hilarious how HN dislikes Elon. Elon is edgy, non-pc, and speaks his mind. All traits I see looked down upon in Silicon Valley.

marcinzm 6y ago
Elon Musk tends to speak as if he was an expert on subjects he only has cursory knowledge of. Most engineers have, by personal experience, found such people to be giant pains in the ass and would prefer they all just shut up.
- gfodor 6y ago
  And yet, those pains in the ass often are what is needed to really shake things up. It often seems a messy but necessary thing to make progress.
- holler 6y ago
  Without those people, the engineers wouldn't have a job. Musk doesn't need to be an expert in every minute detail, he just needs to understand enough to put the picture together.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jacquesm 6y ago
It's perfectly possible to respect Elon Musk for what he has achieved and at the same time dislike his way of interacting with others.
dang 6y ago
HN is a statistical cloud. It doesn't like or dislike. People do that, and also make overgeneralizations. I suspect you're running into the notice-dislike bias (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_media_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_media_effect.

29athrowaway 6y ago

From South Africa.

macinjosh 6y ago
And your point is?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  American opportunities and education are an important part of what his achievements. That is true. But, he was born and raised in South Africa and moved to the US as an [almost] adult (age 17). If he was born and raised in America, maybe his priorities would have been different to the person we know today.
philwelch 6y ago
Many of the greatest Americans were immigrants. Like John Von Neumann, or Alexander Graham Bell, or Andrew Carnegie, or Alexander Hamilton.
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  Usually in the English language citizenship and nationality are conflated and people use them interchangeably. You can have multiple citizenships. Musk has 3 (South African, Canadian, American) but his nationality is South African. Also, culturally, he was born and raised in South Africa. Moved to the US for college. If South Africa had the opportunities the US has he would now be likely in Praetoria.
  - philwelch 6y ago
    > If South Africa had the opportunities the US has he would now be likely in Praetoria. And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. In terms of nationality or whatever, Elon Musk is as American as anyone else. Probably more American than most. The American nationality isn't fundamentally based on the circumstances of your birth.

dang 6y ago

Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN. There's literally no content to this sort of discussion other than yay-celeb vs. boo-celeb. Just look at how dumb this subthread is.

macinjosh 6y ago
> There's literally no content to this sort of discussion other than yay-celeb vs. boo-celeb Being proud of Elon Musk and my country is not 'ubsubstantive'. It points out the greatness of immigrants, capitalism, technology, entrepreneurship, and everything else that makes America GREAT. > Just look at how vacuous this subthread is. So it is my fault what other's choose to post on HN? Got it!
- dang 6y ago
  Actually yes, there is a sense in which a comment is partly responsible for the subthread it leads to, because reactions to certain things are so predictable on the internet. That's why concepts like 'flamebait' and 'trolling' exist. Your comment wasn't flamebait, exactly, and definitely not trolling, but it did have the property of being much more likely to lead to a vacuous subthread than a curious one. (Btw, I rotated between 'dumb', 'vacuous', 'lame', and a few other adjectives in the GP before returning to 'dumb'. You saw it in an intermediate state.) Edit: one way of putting this is that the value of an HN comment is the expected value of its future subthread: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20%22expected%20value%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu.... That includes the original comment since a root node is part of its tree. I realize you're just being enthusiastic and am sorry to pee on the party.
  - macinjosh 6y ago
    > Actually yes, there is a sense in which a comment is partly responsible for the subthread it leads to Ah ok, just like people who dress scantily are partly responsible for being raped. /s Solid logic.

happytoexplain 6y ago

I promise I'm not saying this to troll or hate on you: I honestly see Elon falling into the genre of "trolling" that's really just the same kind of shitposting, mockery, and thinly veiled hatred that, in my opinion, is destroying western society. So, while his achievements are huge, when people lavish isolated unqualified worship on the person, Elon Musk, nowadays it's genuinely hard to give them the benefit of the doubt in regards to what they know they are communicating by doing that.