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I dislike these absolutist statements and manifestos. The real world is kind of complicated. What problems are you trying to solve? Will a framework help you so
by danjac 6y ago
I dislike these absolutist statements and manifestos. The real world is kind of complicated. What problems are you trying to solve? Will a framework help you solve those problems? Is the solution better served by gluing libraries together? How much control then are you ceding to libraries? For example if you drop Django and use SQLAlchemy to manage your SQL queries, you've just exchanged one high-level abstraction ORM for another, with all the caveats that involves, only now you have more glue and wiring code to write. And frameworks are a spectrum - in Python you have Django at one end and FastAPI or Flask or Falcon at another.
Yes, people should learn the basics - plain Python or Ruby or vanilla JS or SQL - before moving onto frameworks. But having done that, sometimes you just need to get shit done without reinventing wheels, and sometimes you need to know when the precision instrument beats the pile driver. Frameworks are just one tool in the toolbox. Refusing to use that tool when it's warranted is just as bad as always using that tool because you don't know how to use the others.
- jbullock35 6y ago> I dislike these absolutist statements and manifestos. From the manifesto: "We don't hate frameworks, nor we will ever create campaigns against frameworks, but we perceive the misuse of frameworks as a lack of knowledge regarding technical debt and we acknowledge the availability of alternatives to frameworks...The purpose of this Manifesto is to have valuable conversations about the movement. We firmly believe that to be useful this manifesto should be modified during the time as a result of the conversations that our community will have." What is absolutist here? To me, this seems like the most even-handed, least absolutist manifesto that I've ever seen.
- danjac 6y agoThen why even call it a "Manifesto"? Why the need for a "movement"? These imply a struggle against something that needs to be overthrown or toppled. If you want to start a sensible discussion about "using the right tool for the job" you don't need to write a "manifesto" - a simple blog article will suffice. Manifestos - even the ones written with the best intentions - lead too often to just another kind of dogmatism (looking at you, Agile).
- bsenftner 6y agoWhen I see "Manifesto" I think "young, full of energy and dumb about how the world works". Manifestos are declarations of a conceptual bulldozer. Why the drama? Just do what you want without the theatrics, or the declaration that "you're doing it differently" - who cares!
- danjac 6y agoI'd understand if these generalizations came from young and inexperienced developers still figuring stuff out, but you also see them from older developers - they might still irrationally hate on, say, PHP or Java based on their experience with these languages a decade ago, without recognizing that a) PHP and Java and their communities/ecosystems changed and improved since then and b) the problems may have resulted from misuse or lack of experience with the tools at the time.
- bsenftner 6y agoLanguages are just tools. To "hate on" this or that method of solving problems is just immature. To avoid a technology because it is a bad tool is fine, but to trot out manifesto declarations is following some drama script that is unnecessary.