7 ms·

Relationship between psychedelics, the brain, well-being, and creativity

114 points by kenta_nagamine 6y ago

dep_b 6y ago
Haven't done it in years but I always kept a bit of an interest in it. No idea how it'll affect me after more than 10 years.
- jamil7 6y ago
  I felt similarly but I recently tried it again after about 10 years with a very small amount and had a really positive and fun experience.
otterpop 6y ago
gosh i've heard so much about how good psychedelics are for treating depression, but they're obviously illegal to get a hold of. hopefully we can see some clinical trials and find a theraputic use for them within my lifetime.
- zeta_ 6y ago
  I believe shrooms are not illegal on most western countries
  - ttonkytonk 6y ago
    They're most certainly illegal in the U.S.A.! I did a lot of street acid as a teenager and it caused me a lot of problems it seems. Only did some half decent psilocybin shrooms once, more recently (but years ago), but I liked the fact that I actually came down, acid seemed to just linger and linger long after the main trip was over.
    - trabant00 6y ago
      > I did a lot of street acid as a teenager and it caused me a lot of problems it seems Can you expand on that?
      - ttonkytonk 6y ago
        One year I did about 40 hits of acid, often multiple hits at a time, and started stuttering and just felt like I had less going on mentally. It really seemed like I had permanent brain damage. I'm not sure exactly what was going on, there were definitely extenuating factors (e.g. family dysfunction, depression etc.) but it took years for me to recover.
    - lame-robot-hoax 6y ago
      Psilocybin mushrooms are decriminalized in Denver.
  - narag 6y ago
    Mushrooms were illegalized in NL recently, but truffles, a way of growing the same thing but underground, remain legal. It's possible to buy them legally there and semi-legally ordering them online from many other EU countries.
- lowwave 6y ago
  It is in Clinical Trails https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866252 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866252
- jackhalford 6y ago
  If legality is your concern and you live in europe, it's quite easy to get legal LSD derivatives like 1p-LSD [1] that are legal in most EU countries. [1] https://m.psychonautwiki.org/wiki/1P-LSD https://m.psychonautwiki.org/wiki/1P-LSD
- pdamoc 6y ago
  There are places where they are legal and you have the option of planning a vacation around a psychedelic experience. My first experience with ayahuasca was in Netherlands and the afterglow of the experience was a good 3 months. The first month my depression was significantly better, the next 2 months noticeable better. After 3 months I remained on a plateau that was higher than the one I was on before the experience. The experience permanently removed my (arguably light) PTSD symptoms (I would get tensed every time I crossed the street due to an accident on the pedestrian crossway) and a particular "dark heaviness" that was part of my days from time to time.
- lm28469 6y ago
  To get most of the therapeutic effect you need to do that in a controlled environment, there is no reason for psychedelics to be legalised the way weed or alcohol is. The difference between a "neat it cured my ptsd" (/s) trip and a "oh shit I'm going to die this is the worse thing I experimented in my life" trip isn't that big (dose, settings, &c.)
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    It can cure your PTSD but it in the wrong place at the wrong time it could also give you PTSD. Your mind is very impressionable under the influence.
- termy 6y ago
  Here is a depression study carried out at Imperial College London https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-13282-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-13282-7
the_dripper 6y ago
Cool article! I recently bought a book on LSD but I'm still waiting to read it. What surprised me is that OCD was on the low entropy side, because I feel like it makes the brain more active.
pdamoc 6y ago
> "It's like a stepladder to look over a brick wall that's a little bit too tall for you. You use a stepladder, you get to see this crazy landscape that you kinda had an inkling about every time you walked by this wall, and then some people, you know, can sit in front of the wall, and, like, meditate, and then the wall becomes transparent, and they see beyond it, you know? So, there are many pathways to arrive at the same realization." - Reggie Watts - Have a good trip (Netflix) I believe that the responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization. They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect.
- yowlingcat 6y ago
  > I believe that the responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization. They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect. A lot of folks believe that much of religion and early human societal organization actually originally came about as a result of early human utilization of psychoactives. It makes sense when you think about, for instance, shamanic utilization of ayahuasca and its tradition stretching back historically. As you point out, "They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect." But the flip side is that, as powerful tools, they can be dangerous when not used in a safe setting. But I always am a little bit specious when folks say that "responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization" -- the tool itself, while useful, has been around for a while.
- nsajko 6y ago
  What is responsible, though?
ldeangelis 6y ago
Another great article that's kind of on the same subject https://qualiacomputing.com/2019/08/27/carhart-harris-friston-2019-rebus-and-the-anarchic-brain/ https://qualiacomputing.com/2019/08/27/carhart-harris-fristo...
sejtnjir 6y ago
I don't see how you need some sort of health benefit as justification to enjoy psychedelics. Why not do it for its own sake?
- smitty1e 6y ago
  Long-term negative effects?
  - tpetrina 6y ago
    You mean more or less severe than long-term negative effects of sugar or alchocol? And there is greater stigma for non-drinkers than for drinkers in our societies so go figure...
    - poppabox 6y ago
      More severe than sugar. There is not a greater stigma for non-drinkers unless you're hanging out with alcoholics. People whose opinions you should care about don't care either way as long as you're a kind person.
    - currymj 6y ago
      i am honestly slightly worried that in certain social circles, things will get to the point where not taking psychedelics carries a stigma. i am guessing this is already the case in certain subcultures but I think there is a chance it could reach the mainstream in blue coastal cities.
      - doctorbuttes 6y ago
        I have friends that believe there is a moral obligation to take psychedelics to expand the mind and increase empathy. That’s a little extreme for me, though.
    - smitty1e 6y ago
      No, I don't. As a relatively boring person, mucking about with the body chemistry is not preferred. If the doctor says so, OK.
sealjam 6y ago
I just read I Have America Surrounded[1] a biography of Timothy Leary and found it fascinating. His descriptions of levels of consciousness are a bit wacky but I think helped me understand the appeal of psychedelics. I assume Timothy Leary is a pretty divisive figure for some, I didn't know a lot about him before reading, so went in with a relatively open mind. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/123706.I_Have_America_Surrounded https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/123706.I_Have_America_Su...
pengstrom 6y ago
LSD is very, very interesting if you have a somewhat disciplined mind. When the border of reality becomes diffuse, you're for some reason able to reason about your own consciousness. You see how arbitrary your perception of reality really is. You start thinking about where thoughts come from, and the difference between a state (mind) and a process (the underlying biology from which the consciousness emerges). Fun stuff. It's extra fun when you realize you're seeing fractals and thinking recursion. Be safe. Your experiences may differ.
- helloimbob 6y ago
  Seeing fractals is great! Getting stuck in a thought loop less so...
  - pengstrom 6y ago
    Yes that's very unpleasant. I guess that's why they recommend starting slow. But it also gives some insight, as I (feel) I'm more able to control my thoughts the next time it happens. But yes, do not take psychedelics lightly.
    - mettamage 6y ago
      > But yes, do not take psychedelics lightly. Some thought loops can actually be life threatening (e.g. suicidal ones). This can also happen when there are no apparent signs of it during your normal day to day life. YMMV, but I was happy to have a sober trip sitter.
  - blunte 6y ago
    Many of us don't need mushrooms to be stuck in thought loops :/. I suspect this is a common human situation.
    - mjayhn 6y ago
      I talk about this in my reply in the thread but psychs have actually helped me a lot with controlling my intrusive thoughts and loops, essentially CBT practice. It's like a hurricane of them each time you trip and to stay positive you really have to practice turning self-defeating negativity into something either positive or that you realize is just BS. Not sure if you've tripped but the thought loops you get stuck in there are insane, it's complete tunnel vision and you really need your inner monologue to stop and interpret what's going on. I often write out the negative thoughts/beliefs I start feeling then start working through whether they're true, false, completely made up.. They're almost always the latter thankfully.
_reza 6y ago
I once read somewhere that while designing Hypercard, Bill Atkinson used to consume LSD in order to get some mental boost.
braindead_in 6y ago
The entropic brain hypothesis reminds me of the Mandukya Upanishad. I or Ego is neither the waking state, neither the sleep state and nor the dream state, but the one from all these states emanate from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGKFTUuJppU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGKFTUuJppU
nsajko 6y ago
I missed any mention of the potential of some psychedelics for triggering mental illnesses (psychosis, etc.) in some people. I try not to judge users, but I think it is best to dodge the risk and not mess with your mind until science knows a hell of a lot more about the brain and the effects of some substances on it. Decriminalization is a must, though.

Haven't done it in years but I always kept a bit of an interest in it. No idea how it'll affect me after more than 10 years.

jamil7 6y ago
I felt similarly but I recently tried it again after about 10 years with a very small amount and had a really positive and fun experience.

otterpop 6y ago

gosh i've heard so much about how good psychedelics are for treating depression, but they're obviously illegal to get a hold of. hopefully we can see some clinical trials and find a theraputic use for them within my lifetime.

zeta_ 6y ago
I believe shrooms are not illegal on most western countries
- ttonkytonk 6y ago
  They're most certainly illegal in the U.S.A.! I did a lot of street acid as a teenager and it caused me a lot of problems it seems. Only did some half decent psilocybin shrooms once, more recently (but years ago), but I liked the fact that I actually came down, acid seemed to just linger and linger long after the main trip was over.
  - trabant00 6y ago
    > I did a lot of street acid as a teenager and it caused me a lot of problems it seems Can you expand on that?
    - ttonkytonk 6y ago
      One year I did about 40 hits of acid, often multiple hits at a time, and started stuttering and just felt like I had less going on mentally. It really seemed like I had permanent brain damage. I'm not sure exactly what was going on, there were definitely extenuating factors (e.g. family dysfunction, depression etc.) but it took years for me to recover.
  - lame-robot-hoax 6y ago
    Psilocybin mushrooms are decriminalized in Denver.
- narag 6y ago
  Mushrooms were illegalized in NL recently, but truffles, a way of growing the same thing but underground, remain legal. It's possible to buy them legally there and semi-legally ordering them online from many other EU countries.
lowwave 6y ago
It is in Clinical Trails https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866252 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866252
jackhalford 6y ago
If legality is your concern and you live in europe, it's quite easy to get legal LSD derivatives like 1p-LSD [1] that are legal in most EU countries. [1] https://m.psychonautwiki.org/wiki/1P-LSD https://m.psychonautwiki.org/wiki/1P-LSD
pdamoc 6y ago
There are places where they are legal and you have the option of planning a vacation around a psychedelic experience. My first experience with ayahuasca was in Netherlands and the afterglow of the experience was a good 3 months. The first month my depression was significantly better, the next 2 months noticeable better. After 3 months I remained on a plateau that was higher than the one I was on before the experience. The experience permanently removed my (arguably light) PTSD symptoms (I would get tensed every time I crossed the street due to an accident on the pedestrian crossway) and a particular "dark heaviness" that was part of my days from time to time.
lm28469 6y ago
To get most of the therapeutic effect you need to do that in a controlled environment, there is no reason for psychedelics to be legalised the way weed or alcohol is. The difference between a "neat it cured my ptsd" (/s) trip and a "oh shit I'm going to die this is the worse thing I experimented in my life" trip isn't that big (dose, settings, &c.)
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  It can cure your PTSD but it in the wrong place at the wrong time it could also give you PTSD. Your mind is very impressionable under the influence.
termy 6y ago
Here is a depression study carried out at Imperial College London https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-13282-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-13282-7

the_dripper 6y ago

Cool article! I recently bought a book on LSD but I'm still waiting to read it. What surprised me is that OCD was on the low entropy side, because I feel like it makes the brain more active.

pdamoc 6y ago

> "It's like a stepladder to look over a brick wall that's a little bit too tall for you. You use a stepladder, you get to see this crazy landscape that you kinda had an inkling about every time you walked by this wall, and then some people, you know, can sit in front of the wall, and, like, meditate, and then the wall becomes transparent, and they see beyond it, you know? So, there are many pathways to arrive at the same realization." - Reggie Watts - Have a good trip (Netflix) I believe that the responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization. They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect.

yowlingcat 6y ago
> I believe that the responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization. They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect. A lot of folks believe that much of religion and early human societal organization actually originally came about as a result of early human utilization of psychoactives. It makes sense when you think about, for instance, shamanic utilization of ayahuasca and its tradition stretching back historically. As you point out, "They are powerful tools and should be approached with upmost respect." But the flip side is that, as powerful tools, they can be dangerous when not used in a safe setting. But I always am a little bit specious when folks say that "responsible use of psychedelics could open the door to a new leap in human civilization" -- the tool itself, while useful, has been around for a while.
nsajko 6y ago
What is responsible, though?

ldeangelis 6y ago

Another great article that's kind of on the same subject https://qualiacomputing.com/2019/08/27/carhart-harris-friston-2019-rebus-and-the-anarchic-brain/ https://qualiacomputing.com/2019/08/27/carhart-harris-fristo...

sejtnjir 6y ago

I don't see how you need some sort of health benefit as justification to enjoy psychedelics. Why not do it for its own sake?

smitty1e 6y ago
Long-term negative effects?
- tpetrina 6y ago
  You mean more or less severe than long-term negative effects of sugar or alchocol? And there is greater stigma for non-drinkers than for drinkers in our societies so go figure...
  - poppabox 6y ago
    More severe than sugar. There is not a greater stigma for non-drinkers unless you're hanging out with alcoholics. People whose opinions you should care about don't care either way as long as you're a kind person.
  - currymj 6y ago
    i am honestly slightly worried that in certain social circles, things will get to the point where not taking psychedelics carries a stigma. i am guessing this is already the case in certain subcultures but I think there is a chance it could reach the mainstream in blue coastal cities.
    - doctorbuttes 6y ago
      I have friends that believe there is a moral obligation to take psychedelics to expand the mind and increase empathy. That’s a little extreme for me, though.
  - smitty1e 6y ago
    No, I don't. As a relatively boring person, mucking about with the body chemistry is not preferred. If the doctor says so, OK.

sealjam 6y ago

I just read I Have America Surrounded[1] a biography of Timothy Leary and found it fascinating. His descriptions of levels of consciousness are a bit wacky but I think helped me understand the appeal of psychedelics. I assume Timothy Leary is a pretty divisive figure for some, I didn't know a lot about him before reading, so went in with a relatively open mind. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/123706.I_Have_America_Surrounded https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/123706.I_Have_America_Su...

pengstrom 6y ago

LSD is very, very interesting if you have a somewhat disciplined mind. When the border of reality becomes diffuse, you're for some reason able to reason about your own consciousness. You see how arbitrary your perception of reality really is. You start thinking about where thoughts come from, and the difference between a state (mind) and a process (the underlying biology from which the consciousness emerges). Fun stuff. It's extra fun when you realize you're seeing fractals and thinking recursion. Be safe. Your experiences may differ.

helloimbob 6y ago
Seeing fractals is great! Getting stuck in a thought loop less so...
- pengstrom 6y ago
  Yes that's very unpleasant. I guess that's why they recommend starting slow. But it also gives some insight, as I (feel) I'm more able to control my thoughts the next time it happens. But yes, do not take psychedelics lightly.
  - mettamage 6y ago
    > But yes, do not take psychedelics lightly. Some thought loops can actually be life threatening (e.g. suicidal ones). This can also happen when there are no apparent signs of it during your normal day to day life. YMMV, but I was happy to have a sober trip sitter.
- blunte 6y ago
  Many of us don't need mushrooms to be stuck in thought loops :/. I suspect this is a common human situation.
  - mjayhn 6y ago
    I talk about this in my reply in the thread but psychs have actually helped me a lot with controlling my intrusive thoughts and loops, essentially CBT practice. It's like a hurricane of them each time you trip and to stay positive you really have to practice turning self-defeating negativity into something either positive or that you realize is just BS. Not sure if you've tripped but the thought loops you get stuck in there are insane, it's complete tunnel vision and you really need your inner monologue to stop and interpret what's going on. I often write out the negative thoughts/beliefs I start feeling then start working through whether they're true, false, completely made up.. They're almost always the latter thankfully.

_reza 6y ago

I once read somewhere that while designing Hypercard, Bill Atkinson used to consume LSD in order to get some mental boost.

braindead_in 6y ago

The entropic brain hypothesis reminds me of the Mandukya Upanishad. I or Ego is neither the waking state, neither the sleep state and nor the dream state, but the one from all these states emanate from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGKFTUuJppU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGKFTUuJppU

nsajko 6y ago

I missed any mention of the potential of some psychedelics for triggering mental illnesses (psychosis, etc.) in some people. I try not to judge users, but I think it is best to dodge the risk and not mess with your mind until science knows a hell of a lot more about the brain and the effects of some substances on it. Decriminalization is a must, though.