10 ms·

The post-covid "remote work" will be very different from the present day and past WFH. Right now, WFH is a struggle not because of the "FH" part, but because o

by gopalv 6y ago

The post-covid "remote work" will be very different from the present day and past WFH. Right now, WFH is a struggle not because of the "FH" part, but because of "cabin fever" effect of being around everyone all the time, the complexities of avoiding the disease - things which were done by professionals is back to self-run, everything from cleaning to child care. In the past, I've WFH'd only when I have had a good reason to justify that. This was in the pre-Marissa era @ Yahoo and I was probably one of those people, if you counted VPN time. However, the good reasons which required to be remote are often the opposite of productive - my reason was that my dad was on suicide watch for 4 months. But with EVERYONE being WFH without choice has changed several people who have held similar opinions in the past about remote work - the managers might still consider the "from home" to be bad, but they might have realized that they can maintain an effective organization, without constantly talking to people in person. The next wave of this "remote work" revolution will probably not be people working from home, but people choosing to work in an area close enough to home, but far away enough to avoid the internal pressures of pending chores. Before Covid, my favourite "remote work" location was the SF public library in Potrero & the Burlingame one which even has private offices. Wasn't exactly WFH, but it was remote & great.

elric 6y ago
Adding to that: a lot of people had to start WFH with little or no preparation. For many of us techy types that's no problem, we already have desks and monitors and keyboards coming out of our ears. But for a lot of people, none of that is a given at all. There's a huge difference between reading your emails on your laptop at the breakfast table in the morning, and working from home 8 hours a day for months. Especially if you live in a tiny flat and have to share it with other people. If I were to apply for a 100% remote job, I'd make different accomodation choices than when getting a 100% on site job.
- dbcurtis 6y ago
  Yes, I think the lack of prep problem is underrated. As a freelancer, I almost don't notice lock-down other than the cabin fever effects, because my home office is well-established. But, wow, that would have been different if I had been put in the position of building up that office infrastructure over-night, as things were shutting down. And certainly the place-without-interruptions can be a challenge. I have lived in a home with a toddler and a cat -- well, that isn't exactly conducive to getting into "coding flow". Pre-lockdown, I had a chat with a startup CEO who likes to work from his home office when he needs a block of deep-work time. It is a big source of irritation with his wife that "door closed means I am unavailable" -- so yeah, just a place to hide is nice once in a while.
  - jinglebells 6y ago
    Same. I've got a purpose built office in the garden I built for my wife and I five years ago. We've got wired internet, power, whiteboards, sofas, variable desks, multiple monitors, it's great. But we built our business fully remote back in 2014, we've been doing this forever now. While our work colleagues are in their kitchens or on their sofas. It's not sustainable.
  - benibela 6y ago
    I work on the cheapest 14'' laptop I could find. I bought it last year and thought I do not need a good computer, since I thought I would spend most on my time on the PC in the office anyways.
    - cosmodisk 6y ago
      We gave a few PCs to some of our colleagues to work from home because they either didn't have a laptop or it was complete crap to work on.
  - MereInterest 6y ago
    Exactly. My spouse and I like spending time in the same room, even if we are not directly interacting with each other. Therefore, when arranging furniture, we deliberately had the computer desk go in the living room, so that video games would not require isolation. Now that same computer desk is also the work desk 8 hours every day, but it is still the living room.
  - shmoogy 6y ago
    My toddler and baby are less bothersome than my in office colleagues. I'm more productive than ever. I feel you on your other points though,
- cosmodisk 6y ago
  Spending my days trying to figure out Asp.net core identity while Peppa Pig is on full blast in the same room.
- neltnerb 6y ago
  Yeah, I just got a colleague a laptop because their kids are using theirs all day. I think most people do not have a computer per person at home... especially with younger kids.
wenc 6y ago
I've gotten used to WFH but agree that the ideal remote work location is actually a "third-place" -- non-home non-office location -- like a library or a Starbucks or a shared workspace close to home. The psychological separation between home and work is so important.
- LeSaucy 6y ago
  I keep an office and a gym in my finished basement and it works perfectly for that separation. Not feasible for everyone but if you have the space it’s totally worth creating the division.
- ghaff 6y ago
  >The psychological separation between home and work is so important. Honestly, It varies by person. I've gone into an office increasingly intermittently for the most part over the past 15 years or so and don't even have an assigned desk any longer. I have a dedicated office at home (which I also use for video/photo editing, screwing around with electronics, etc.) but I don't feel it has to be just a work-work room. I do videocalls from this room because it's where my good webcam is attached to my desktop system and where I've fiddled with lighting and background. TBH though, half the time I work somewhere else in the house on a laptop. But I've absolutely worked with a lot of people who pretty much came into the office every day even though they had no particular need to. My overall conclusion is that most of the "rules" for working remote or WFH only apply to some people.
- papito 6y ago
  That's a matter of habit. The trigger before was space. "I am in the office - work mode on". In WFH the trigger has to be time. We have a hard 9AM start policy, with 12 to 1PM lunch. That puts everyone on the same page and gets rid of the ambiguous "I wonder if anyone else is looking for me right now, and should I be working". You should absolutely know. If people don't respect it, it's their problem, but you should not be responding to people at 7AM or 9PM unless the sky is falling. No different from how it was before. This lack of boundaries is what really exhausts people. Also, create a separate account on your computer for work. You should do that anyway to avoid screen share mishaps (no one wants to see your personal bookmarks and history). At end of day, log out, killing slack notifications and email, and log into your work-free personal account. You are done for the day.
Supermancho 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
enjo 6y ago
My favorite remote work spot in Denver has been Denver Union Station (I'm weird, having people around helps me concentrate).
- zolland 6y ago
  I miss Union Station (I moved away)! It's such a cool place to hang out but never tried working there. Where do you post up, the cafe? I don't remember there being a ton of seats in there.
  - enjo 6y ago
    Have you been there since 2014? It was fully renovated and there are a TON of tables and chairs in the main hall now. Including desks with power.
sevensor 6y ago
> everything from cleaning to child care You cannot overstate the difficulty of putting in eight, or even six, solid hours of work in a day where you also have to coordinate your children's schooling, prepare meals, arbitrate disagreements, apply band-aids, do dishes, do laundry, supply technical support, and a thousand other non-work-related tasks. I was surprised that the article didn't mention this.
- m0zg 6y ago
  > putting in eight, or even six, solid hours Especially considering that _nobody_ puts in eight or even six hours of "solid work" when at the office. That's something I intuitively knew for a while, but it came into stark contrast once I started consulting and tracking my time. I only bill for the time I _actually_ work. And doing 8 hours of mentally demanding, focused work per day is difficult AF. That's why people slack off in the office, have water cooler conversations, interrupt each other all the time, have meetings they don't really need to have, 1.5 hour lunch breaks, etc. If you had to actually work 8 hours a day, full throttle, few people would stick with it. The flip side is the productivity of doing 8 hours of focused work per day is truly staggering when you tally it up at the end of the week (which I also do, and you should do, too, if you work remote - otherwise you'll be "invisible" no matter how much you contribute). And WFH plus mostly async communication is very amenable to being able to focus.
  - lame-robot-hoax 6y ago
    Eh, people in support work probably six solid hours very often. If there’s an outage or a problem, people in support can easily work 7 or 7 and a half hours of taking calls practically non stop. And like you said, few people stick with it. Every place I’ve worked at, the Support department has extremely high turnover and people constantly trying to leave for a different department in the company, or a different role in a different company. Being constantly monitored, poor pay, not being able to go to company sponsored events (oh, at 2 PM we’re having a Zoom workout/meditation meeting, everyone is invited *except support they gotta stay on the phone), having to be above certain metrics, and having to talk to people that are generally neutral at best and extremely pissed at worst, is the perfect recipe for people to hate their job and to quit/leave the company/go to a different department ASAP.

by gopalv 6y ago

elric 6y ago

Adding to that: a lot of people had to start WFH with little or no preparation. For many of us techy types that's no problem, we already have desks and monitors and keyboards coming out of our ears. But for a lot of people, none of that is a given at all. There's a huge difference between reading your emails on your laptop at the breakfast table in the morning, and working from home 8 hours a day for months. Especially if you live in a tiny flat and have to share it with other people. If I were to apply for a 100% remote job, I'd make different accomodation choices than when getting a 100% on site job.

dbcurtis 6y ago
Yes, I think the lack of prep problem is underrated. As a freelancer, I almost don't notice lock-down other than the cabin fever effects, because my home office is well-established. But, wow, that would have been different if I had been put in the position of building up that office infrastructure over-night, as things were shutting down. And certainly the place-without-interruptions can be a challenge. I have lived in a home with a toddler and a cat -- well, that isn't exactly conducive to getting into "coding flow". Pre-lockdown, I had a chat with a startup CEO who likes to work from his home office when he needs a block of deep-work time. It is a big source of irritation with his wife that "door closed means I am unavailable" -- so yeah, just a place to hide is nice once in a while.
- jinglebells 6y ago
  Same. I've got a purpose built office in the garden I built for my wife and I five years ago. We've got wired internet, power, whiteboards, sofas, variable desks, multiple monitors, it's great. But we built our business fully remote back in 2014, we've been doing this forever now. While our work colleagues are in their kitchens or on their sofas. It's not sustainable.
- benibela 6y ago
  I work on the cheapest 14'' laptop I could find. I bought it last year and thought I do not need a good computer, since I thought I would spend most on my time on the PC in the office anyways.
  - cosmodisk 6y ago
    We gave a few PCs to some of our colleagues to work from home because they either didn't have a laptop or it was complete crap to work on.
- MereInterest 6y ago
  Exactly. My spouse and I like spending time in the same room, even if we are not directly interacting with each other. Therefore, when arranging furniture, we deliberately had the computer desk go in the living room, so that video games would not require isolation. Now that same computer desk is also the work desk 8 hours every day, but it is still the living room.
- shmoogy 6y ago
  My toddler and baby are less bothersome than my in office colleagues. I'm more productive than ever. I feel you on your other points though,
cosmodisk 6y ago
Spending my days trying to figure out Asp.net core identity while Peppa Pig is on full blast in the same room.
neltnerb 6y ago
Yeah, I just got a colleague a laptop because their kids are using theirs all day. I think most people do not have a computer per person at home... especially with younger kids.

wenc 6y ago

I've gotten used to WFH but agree that the ideal remote work location is actually a "third-place" -- non-home non-office location -- like a library or a Starbucks or a shared workspace close to home. The psychological separation between home and work is so important.

LeSaucy 6y ago
I keep an office and a gym in my finished basement and it works perfectly for that separation. Not feasible for everyone but if you have the space it’s totally worth creating the division.
ghaff 6y ago
>The psychological separation between home and work is so important. Honestly, It varies by person. I've gone into an office increasingly intermittently for the most part over the past 15 years or so and don't even have an assigned desk any longer. I have a dedicated office at home (which I also use for video/photo editing, screwing around with electronics, etc.) but I don't feel it has to be just a work-work room. I do videocalls from this room because it's where my good webcam is attached to my desktop system and where I've fiddled with lighting and background. TBH though, half the time I work somewhere else in the house on a laptop. But I've absolutely worked with a lot of people who pretty much came into the office every day even though they had no particular need to. My overall conclusion is that most of the "rules" for working remote or WFH only apply to some people.
papito 6y ago
That's a matter of habit. The trigger before was space. "I am in the office - work mode on". In WFH the trigger has to be time. We have a hard 9AM start policy, with 12 to 1PM lunch. That puts everyone on the same page and gets rid of the ambiguous "I wonder if anyone else is looking for me right now, and should I be working". You should absolutely know. If people don't respect it, it's their problem, but you should not be responding to people at 7AM or 9PM unless the sky is falling. No different from how it was before. This lack of boundaries is what really exhausts people. Also, create a separate account on your computer for work. You should do that anyway to avoid screen share mishaps (no one wants to see your personal bookmarks and history). At end of day, log out, killing slack notifications and email, and log into your work-free personal account. You are done for the day.

Supermancho 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

enjo 6y ago

My favorite remote work spot in Denver has been Denver Union Station (I'm weird, having people around helps me concentrate).

zolland 6y ago
I miss Union Station (I moved away)! It's such a cool place to hang out but never tried working there. Where do you post up, the cafe? I don't remember there being a ton of seats in there.
- enjo 6y ago
  Have you been there since 2014? It was fully renovated and there are a TON of tables and chairs in the main hall now. Including desks with power.

sevensor 6y ago

> everything from cleaning to child care You cannot overstate the difficulty of putting in eight, or even six, solid hours of work in a day where you also have to coordinate your children's schooling, prepare meals, arbitrate disagreements, apply band-aids, do dishes, do laundry, supply technical support, and a thousand other non-work-related tasks. I was surprised that the article didn't mention this.

m0zg 6y ago
> putting in eight, or even six, solid hours Especially considering that _nobody_ puts in eight or even six hours of "solid work" when at the office. That's something I intuitively knew for a while, but it came into stark contrast once I started consulting and tracking my time. I only bill for the time I _actually_ work. And doing 8 hours of mentally demanding, focused work per day is difficult AF. That's why people slack off in the office, have water cooler conversations, interrupt each other all the time, have meetings they don't really need to have, 1.5 hour lunch breaks, etc. If you had to actually work 8 hours a day, full throttle, few people would stick with it. The flip side is the productivity of doing 8 hours of focused work per day is truly staggering when you tally it up at the end of the week (which I also do, and you should do, too, if you work remote - otherwise you'll be "invisible" no matter how much you contribute). And WFH plus mostly async communication is very amenable to being able to focus.
- lame-robot-hoax 6y ago
  Eh, people in support work probably six solid hours very often. If there’s an outage or a problem, people in support can easily work 7 or 7 and a half hours of taking calls practically non stop. And like you said, few people stick with it. Every place I’ve worked at, the Support department has extremely high turnover and people constantly trying to leave for a different department in the company, or a different role in a different company. Being constantly monitored, poor pay, not being able to go to company sponsored events (oh, at 2 PM we’re having a Zoom workout/meditation meeting, everyone is invited *except support they gotta stay on the phone), having to be above certain metrics, and having to talk to people that are generally neutral at best and extremely pissed at worst, is the perfect recipe for people to hate their job and to quit/leave the company/go to a different department ASAP.