6 ms·

Did George Washington Use Ketchup? (2012)

22 points by smacktoward 6y ago

tyingq 6y ago
Offtopic, but it's interesting to me that "Ketchup" is a very different thing depending on where you live. There are wide variations of how sweet it is, or how much vinegar, etc. I'm aware that's also true for things like mustard, but the taste differences with ketchup were more abrubt to me.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  My wife has this thin black vinegar thing made from mushrooms that she calls 'ketchup' so yeah. Where I live people say 'tomato ketchup' or 'tomato sauce' when they mean the thick stuff made from tomatoes.
  - oltrusty 6y ago
    The word originates from eastern China (Xiamen or previously know as Amoy), the Minnan-hua language uses kôe-chiap or kê-chiap. Originally a sauce of pickled fish with spices.
    - huhtenberg 6y ago
      It's one several theories, apparently - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology
      - oltrusty 6y ago
        Yes, interesting. I think there was an active spice trading route from Japan through Xiamen hundreds of years ago. Perhaps a true international product.
    - blakesterz 6y ago
      According to this post... But who came up with the word “Ketchup”? Who knows? There’s much debate over the origin of this word. Some say it’s a variant of a Chinese word for fish sauce. Others say it is a Malay word for the same.
    - sdenton4 6y ago
      In India (I first encountered it in Kenya), there's kachumbari, a kinda simple chutney of diced tomatoes and onion. I always wondered if that was the origin...
  - tyingq 6y ago
    That's interesting, but I was talking about variations of tomato ketchup. The ketchup in Germany, the UK, and the US are all very different. I didn't like the ketchup in Germany at all (and I don't mean the curry ketchup...).
    - poulsbohemian 6y ago
      Probably less sugar than American ketchup... I vaguely recall the ketchup in Germany (non curry) having more vinegar too.
  - smacktoward 6y ago
    Scroll down to the bottom of the article, there’s an 18th-century recipe for “mushroom ketchup.” (Along with a video on how to make it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29u_FejNuks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29u_FejNuks) Be interesting to see how close it is to your wife’s modern version!
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  I'm sure I'll draw a bunch of anger from mostly the same people who think anything made by Anheuser-Busch isn't a real beer but last I checked normal Heinz ketchup was pretty universal across the americas and europe.
  - tyingq 6y ago
    Perhaps, but when I went to restaurants and street vendors, they did not have Heinz. And there are differences even with Heinz: https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/51887630_2330007900367241_7150679566367850496_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=8024bb&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=G-Xxs-Ny8PoAX9C129U&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&_nc_tp=14&oh=7562b7b6d7d3bc68d161c92fa28fa100&oe=5EF38305 https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65...
    - aidenn0 6y ago
      Those ingredients do not prove any difference in amounts of sweetness or vinegar. In both cases it's Tomato, vinegar, sugar, salt, spice.
      - tyingq 6y ago
        Do the math to normalize the serving sizes and you'll see there are differences. The UK version, for example, has significantly more salt. You can see that without doing math. 300mg of salt in a 15 gram serving vs 160mg of salt in a 17g serving. I'm perplexed why you think it would be odd for a company to make a version of their product that's suited to local tastes. US: https://dam.kraftheinzcompany.com/adaptivemedia/rendition/00013000001243_A7N1.JPG https://dam.kraftheinzcompany.com/adaptivemedia/rendition/00... UK: https://d36rz30b5p7lsd.cloudfront.net/kraftbrands/heinzcouk/sauces/product/images/TK%20Classic%20Nutrition.png https://d36rz30b5p7lsd.cloudfront.net/kraftbrands/heinzcouk/... HFCS and sugar do have taste and mouth feel differences as well.
        aidenn0 6y ago
        I do not think it's odd, and I never disputed that they were different. The picture posted was a non-sequitur though.
- poulsbohemian 6y ago
  For the past N generations of my family, we've made a prune ketchup. Excellent on beef, pork, chicken as a marinade or sauce. I have an Italian plum tree in my backyard so that's become the source.
ninjapenguin54 6y ago
Catsup
h2odragon 6y ago
The "fermentation" aspect of these sauces is kinda scary now. This isn't just making beer or bread level; this is (can be) next level fermentation where evil ktulu looking things come out of the jar and eat the rest of the shelf sometimes. "Goodie Weston's breads are fine but watch out for the fish sauce, it'll make you talk to God."
- zdragnar 6y ago
  ? Lactofermentation has been around for eons- everything from sauerkraut to kimchi, to yoghurt to soy to any number of other things.
  - h2odragon 6y ago
    True and I'm thinking of the fancier and harder things like the Worcestershire sauce or such that would've been around but still the realm of specialists. you can make likker with rats and water, but you can also make incredibly nasty things you'll wish you hadn't :) See also curing meats and some of the uglier cheeses. We've tamed many microbes in service of foods.
- Spivak 6y ago
  On the other hand I'm super happy fermented foods are en vogue right now and lots of chefs are playing around with it. It means that I don't have to make everything myself if I want it. Hard kombucha, fermented pizza dough, pickled veggies, so much sourdough, kimchi, tempeh, doubanjiang are just on the shelves at the "Western" grocery stores. It's amazing.
kleiba 6y ago
Dan Jurafsky's take on the topic: http://languageoffood.blogspot.com/2009/09/ketchup.html http://languageoffood.blogspot.com/2009/09/ketchup.html
pretzel_boss 6y ago
Jame's Townsend's YouTube channel fantastic if you are interested in colonial history or just the time period in general.

22 points by smacktoward 6y ago

Offtopic, but it's interesting to me that "Ketchup" is a very different thing depending on where you live. There are wide variations of how sweet it is, or how much vinegar, etc. I'm aware that's also true for things like mustard, but the taste differences with ketchup were more abrubt to me.

chrisseaton 6y ago
My wife has this thin black vinegar thing made from mushrooms that she calls 'ketchup' so yeah. Where I live people say 'tomato ketchup' or 'tomato sauce' when they mean the thick stuff made from tomatoes.
- oltrusty 6y ago
  The word originates from eastern China (Xiamen or previously know as Amoy), the Minnan-hua language uses kôe-chiap or kê-chiap. Originally a sauce of pickled fish with spices.
  - huhtenberg 6y ago
    It's one several theories, apparently - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology
    - oltrusty 6y ago
      Yes, interesting. I think there was an active spice trading route from Japan through Xiamen hundreds of years ago. Perhaps a true international product.
  - blakesterz 6y ago
    According to this post... But who came up with the word “Ketchup”? Who knows? There’s much debate over the origin of this word. Some say it’s a variant of a Chinese word for fish sauce. Others say it is a Malay word for the same.
  - sdenton4 6y ago
    In India (I first encountered it in Kenya), there's kachumbari, a kinda simple chutney of diced tomatoes and onion. I always wondered if that was the origin...
- tyingq 6y ago
  That's interesting, but I was talking about variations of tomato ketchup. The ketchup in Germany, the UK, and the US are all very different. I didn't like the ketchup in Germany at all (and I don't mean the curry ketchup...).
  - poulsbohemian 6y ago
    Probably less sugar than American ketchup... I vaguely recall the ketchup in Germany (non curry) having more vinegar too.
- smacktoward 6y ago
  Scroll down to the bottom of the article, there’s an 18th-century recipe for “mushroom ketchup.” (Along with a video on how to make it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29u_FejNuks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29u_FejNuks) Be interesting to see how close it is to your wife’s modern version!
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
I'm sure I'll draw a bunch of anger from mostly the same people who think anything made by Anheuser-Busch isn't a real beer but last I checked normal Heinz ketchup was pretty universal across the americas and europe.
- tyingq 6y ago
  Perhaps, but when I went to restaurants and street vendors, they did not have Heinz. And there are differences even with Heinz: https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/51887630_2330007900367241_7150679566367850496_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=8024bb&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=G-Xxs-Ny8PoAX9C129U&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&_nc_tp=14&oh=7562b7b6d7d3bc68d161c92fa28fa100&oe=5EF38305 https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65...
  - aidenn0 6y ago
    Those ingredients do not prove any difference in amounts of sweetness or vinegar. In both cases it's Tomato, vinegar, sugar, salt, spice.
    - tyingq 6y ago
      Do the math to normalize the serving sizes and you'll see there are differences. The UK version, for example, has significantly more salt. You can see that without doing math. 300mg of salt in a 15 gram serving vs 160mg of salt in a 17g serving. I'm perplexed why you think it would be odd for a company to make a version of their product that's suited to local tastes. US: https://dam.kraftheinzcompany.com/adaptivemedia/rendition/00013000001243_A7N1.JPG https://dam.kraftheinzcompany.com/adaptivemedia/rendition/00... UK: https://d36rz30b5p7lsd.cloudfront.net/kraftbrands/heinzcouk/sauces/product/images/TK%20Classic%20Nutrition.png https://d36rz30b5p7lsd.cloudfront.net/kraftbrands/heinzcouk/... HFCS and sugar do have taste and mouth feel differences as well.
      - aidenn0 6y ago
        I do not think it's odd, and I never disputed that they were different. The picture posted was a non-sequitur though.
poulsbohemian 6y ago
For the past N generations of my family, we've made a prune ketchup. Excellent on beef, pork, chicken as a marinade or sauce. I have an Italian plum tree in my backyard so that's become the source.

ninjapenguin54 6y ago

Catsup

h2odragon 6y ago

The "fermentation" aspect of these sauces is kinda scary now. This isn't just making beer or bread level; this is (can be) next level fermentation where evil ktulu looking things come out of the jar and eat the rest of the shelf sometimes. "Goodie Weston's breads are fine but watch out for the fish sauce, it'll make you talk to God."

zdragnar 6y ago
? Lactofermentation has been around for eons- everything from sauerkraut to kimchi, to yoghurt to soy to any number of other things.
- h2odragon 6y ago
  True and I'm thinking of the fancier and harder things like the Worcestershire sauce or such that would've been around but still the realm of specialists. you can make likker with rats and water, but you can also make incredibly nasty things you'll wish you hadn't :) See also curing meats and some of the uglier cheeses. We've tamed many microbes in service of foods.
Spivak 6y ago
On the other hand I'm super happy fermented foods are en vogue right now and lots of chefs are playing around with it. It means that I don't have to make everything myself if I want it. Hard kombucha, fermented pizza dough, pickled veggies, so much sourdough, kimchi, tempeh, doubanjiang are just on the shelves at the "Western" grocery stores. It's amazing.

kleiba 6y ago

Dan Jurafsky's take on the topic: http://languageoffood.blogspot.com/2009/09/ketchup.html http://languageoffood.blogspot.com/2009/09/ketchup.html

pretzel_boss 6y ago

Jame's Townsend's YouTube channel fantastic if you are interested in colonial history or just the time period in general.