6 ms·

As I genuinely asked in my comment separately in the thread, what practical freedoms are being lost by the everyday person in Hong Kong that would not be consid

As I genuinely asked in my comment separately in the thread, what practical freedoms are being lost by the everyday person in Hong Kong that would not be considered crimes in the US (or Hong Kong prior to this), for example?

marcinzm 6y ago
The freedom to not have China dictate it's laws.
dade_ 6y ago
Random detention for annoying the CCP will now be the actual law.
ng12 6y ago
A reasonable degree of self-representation.
vore 6y ago
What practical freedoms are being lost by the everyday person in the US if the US decided to replace public courts with shadow puppetry? Probably none, but I would be terrified.
- bobmcbobface 6y ago
  None until you actually interact with the system. Then, potentially, all of them.
jcranmer 6y ago
The obvious answer is criticism of the Chinese government, which is I believe a Chinese constitutional right that is ignored in practice. Although, practically speaking, this has already been lost in Hong Kong ever since the abduction of the bookseller.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  This will become a lot more obvious though; the government will probably start feeling emboldened to do things like revoke media licenses.
- ipiz0618 6y ago
  Also with government officials starting to describe every protest as "riots" and "terrorism", it's feared that they are paving the way to grant Chinese authorities power to legally "arrest" anyone anywhere. It's not yet confirmed that the execution will be carried out by Chinese officials, but the law grants them power to do so. Also search warrants were originally needed for the police force to break into private properties (not that the Hong Kong police respect any of the current laws now though), after passing the law, they are no longer need. The scariest part, however, is how vague the law is. One can never truly define what is criminalized. For example, what is "foreign interference"? The HK government has been criticizing the protests as being "influenced" by the US. It's their say to impose a crime upon you. Most "criteria" for acting against the "law" are speculations.
spyckie2 6y ago
The founding fathers of the US did not write the US constitution with practical freedom in mind. They wrote it with the principles of freedom as sacred. The battles they fought weren't for being able to buy groceries or walk the streets. They fought the battles over things like the right to not being taxed, to not be under the bank of England's monetary regulations, to have their own voice in the political system and legal system. These things don't affect the majority of the population, but they are extremely, extremely important. Why? This is because systematically, over the course of hundreds of years, those in power abused those without power, over and over and over and over again, based on their own personal gain. ESPECIALLY if you don't care about the people you're in power over. This is basically why the American Revolution happened, England ran out of money fighting wars and tried to squeeze America for it. America said, no way, you don't give 2 pence about us. Yes, your practical freedoms may not be affected in the micro timescale of the days and weeks, but over the course of centuries, countless people lose their lives and livelihoods, not their freedom, because of any number of reasons, none of them being that they did a crime to deserve it. If history has taught us anything, you could lose your life for being: 1) A religious minority 2) A racial minority 3) A friend of someone who the person in power wants to get rid of 4) Too rich / powerful and a threat to governance 5) Well educated or with radical ideas and much more. You could also lose your livelihood or future by any number of means: 1) being taxed unfairly so that you make next to nothing 2) being forced to do things in a way that would benefit your mother country, at the expense of yourself 3) needing to follow laws that you have no control over that inconvenience or ruin your trade or businesses 4) needing to report to the government suspicious persons or activities And just to be clear, I'm talking about themes from the American Revolution and escaping from the tyranny of European influence, not current affairs. This situation is not in the same ballpark of possible outcomes as "Facebook exposing your private data to advertisers", of which only minor inconvenience is at stake. It's a lot more than that.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  Well, I ask again -- the specific proposed laws under discussion don't touch on any of those principles. They're about sedition, secession, national security, terrorism, etc. We have laws about those things too in the US. So is this actually an argument about the influence / authority of China and the extent of their power, or about the specific laws being passed? Or is it about making sure the 27 years left on the clock are as close to the system that people knew before as possible? Because I don't think the influence of China battle in Hong Kong going to be won, in the long run. -- edit: btw I equally don't understand (well I do, but for the sake of argument) why China/Xi is so in a rush to accelerate the 27 years left for Hong Kong. If it's going to be reverted to 1 system guaranteed eventually, what's the need to do this right now? -- further edit: btw I also don't understand why Carrie Lam is so eager to do Beijing's bidding. If she's an independent/educated/Hong Kong native, what's her motivation? Or do they have some dirt on her? If she's worried about being extradited, you would think she'd be most advocating for an independent legal system.
symmitchry 6y ago
Didn't they mandate learning Mandarin in schools, and remove English as the second language (some time ago?) Here is another example: Mandatory Mandarin proficiency exams at university: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/education/article/2130419/how-compulsory-mandarin-course-caused-chaos-hong-kong https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/education/article/213041... I have lived in HK and know many people there, and their day to day doesn't seem impacted, but culturally I suspect a massive gradual change is inevitable. It would be like asking: does living in China differ tremendously from living in the US, for you and I? Not that much really, on a day-by-day basis!
lykr0n 6y ago
Not having to worry about being abducted and reeducated by a government that has shown a depraved indifference to human life?
sethherr 6y ago
As a pacifist (in high school, no longer), I took issue with the US war in Iraq and refused to stand during the national anthem in classrooms. I was not arrested, or fined - just teased by fellow students. One thing being fought over is disrespecting the Chinese national anthem. Sure, I might not be “the average person” but that’s the point, small deviations are criminalized.
hker 6y ago
TL;DR: limiting freedom of expression in name of national security, without a just trial. Stretching a bit, we call it the freedom from fear (of unjust prosecution), which is the—arguably justified—distrust of the rule by law in China (not the rule of law that Hong Kong previously had). Note that Hong Kong people are using “Freedom from Fear” [1] differently from how US is using it [2]. Chinese courts work very differently from Hong Kong ones: they swing with politics. Many people have been—as perceived by Hong Kongers—unjustly detained or prosecuted (such as the milk powder incidents [3], the two Canadians in China after the Huawei case [4], or the more recent whistleblower Li Wenliang). And those people, in some cases, are sued for charges such as spying or subversion, which is the main theme of the national security law. Given that Chinese agents extracted Hong Kongers in the Causeway Bay Books disappearances [5], Hong Kongers fear that the new national security law (which allows state agents to police Hong Kong [6]) means that Hong Kongers (and perhaps foreigners) may face state agents extraction from Hong Kong. To many Hong Kongers, voicing out for social injustice could mean instability in China, and could mean theft of state secret or subversion as CCP see it. Hence it is limiting freedom of speech. [1]: “Freedom from Fear” is a slogan in Hong Kong protests, see for example this image https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/181114165731-hong-kong-press-freedom-02-medium-plus-169.jpg https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/181114165731-hong-kon... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_from_fear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_from_fear [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal [4]: https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/asia/canada-china-kovrig-spavor-huawei-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/asia/canada-china-kovrig-spav... [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan... [6]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-to-allow-state-security-agents-to-police-hong-kong-11590145427 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-to-allow-state-security-a...
camgunz 6y ago
- freedom of expression - freedom of association - freedom of religion - freedom of the press - the right to privacy - the right to a democratic, representative government - the right to a fair trial - freedom from cruel and unusual punishment The CCP is one of the most oppressive regimes on Earth, depriving its people of even the most basic of rights and freedoms.

marcinzm 6y ago

The freedom to not have China dictate it's laws.

dade_ 6y ago

Random detention for annoying the CCP will now be the actual law.

ng12 6y ago

A reasonable degree of self-representation.

vore 6y ago

What practical freedoms are being lost by the everyday person in the US if the US decided to replace public courts with shadow puppetry? Probably none, but I would be terrified.

bobmcbobface 6y ago
None until you actually interact with the system. Then, potentially, all of them.

jcranmer 6y ago

The obvious answer is criticism of the Chinese government, which is I believe a Chinese constitutional right that is ignored in practice. Although, practically speaking, this has already been lost in Hong Kong ever since the abduction of the bookseller.

bobthepanda 6y ago
This will become a lot more obvious though; the government will probably start feeling emboldened to do things like revoke media licenses.
ipiz0618 6y ago
Also with government officials starting to describe every protest as "riots" and "terrorism", it's feared that they are paving the way to grant Chinese authorities power to legally "arrest" anyone anywhere. It's not yet confirmed that the execution will be carried out by Chinese officials, but the law grants them power to do so. Also search warrants were originally needed for the police force to break into private properties (not that the Hong Kong police respect any of the current laws now though), after passing the law, they are no longer need. The scariest part, however, is how vague the law is. One can never truly define what is criminalized. For example, what is "foreign interference"? The HK government has been criticizing the protests as being "influenced" by the US. It's their say to impose a crime upon you. Most "criteria" for acting against the "law" are speculations.

spyckie2 6y ago

The founding fathers of the US did not write the US constitution with practical freedom in mind. They wrote it with the principles of freedom as sacred. The battles they fought weren't for being able to buy groceries or walk the streets. They fought the battles over things like the right to not being taxed, to not be under the bank of England's monetary regulations, to have their own voice in the political system and legal system. These things don't affect the majority of the population, but they are extremely, extremely important. Why? This is because systematically, over the course of hundreds of years, those in power abused those without power, over and over and over and over again, based on their own personal gain. ESPECIALLY if you don't care about the people you're in power over. This is basically why the American Revolution happened, England ran out of money fighting wars and tried to squeeze America for it. America said, no way, you don't give 2 pence about us. Yes, your practical freedoms may not be affected in the micro timescale of the days and weeks, but over the course of centuries, countless people lose their lives and livelihoods, not their freedom, because of any number of reasons, none of them being that they did a crime to deserve it. If history has taught us anything, you could lose your life for being: 1) A religious minority 2) A racial minority 3) A friend of someone who the person in power wants to get rid of 4) Too rich / powerful and a threat to governance 5) Well educated or with radical ideas and much more. You could also lose your livelihood or future by any number of means: 1) being taxed unfairly so that you make next to nothing 2) being forced to do things in a way that would benefit your mother country, at the expense of yourself 3) needing to follow laws that you have no control over that inconvenience or ruin your trade or businesses 4) needing to report to the government suspicious persons or activities And just to be clear, I'm talking about themes from the American Revolution and escaping from the tyranny of European influence, not current affairs. This situation is not in the same ballpark of possible outcomes as "Facebook exposing your private data to advertisers", of which only minor inconvenience is at stake. It's a lot more than that.

supernova87a 6y ago
Well, I ask again -- the specific proposed laws under discussion don't touch on any of those principles. They're about sedition, secession, national security, terrorism, etc. We have laws about those things too in the US. So is this actually an argument about the influence / authority of China and the extent of their power, or about the specific laws being passed? Or is it about making sure the 27 years left on the clock are as close to the system that people knew before as possible? Because I don't think the influence of China battle in Hong Kong going to be won, in the long run. -- edit: btw I equally don't understand (well I do, but for the sake of argument) why China/Xi is so in a rush to accelerate the 27 years left for Hong Kong. If it's going to be reverted to 1 system guaranteed eventually, what's the need to do this right now? -- further edit: btw I also don't understand why Carrie Lam is so eager to do Beijing's bidding. If she's an independent/educated/Hong Kong native, what's her motivation? Or do they have some dirt on her? If she's worried about being extradited, you would think she'd be most advocating for an independent legal system.

symmitchry 6y ago

Didn't they mandate learning Mandarin in schools, and remove English as the second language (some time ago?) Here is another example: Mandatory Mandarin proficiency exams at university: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/education/article/2130419/how-compulsory-mandarin-course-caused-chaos-hong-kong https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/education/article/213041... I have lived in HK and know many people there, and their day to day doesn't seem impacted, but culturally I suspect a massive gradual change is inevitable. It would be like asking: does living in China differ tremendously from living in the US, for you and I? Not that much really, on a day-by-day basis!

lykr0n 6y ago

Not having to worry about being abducted and reeducated by a government that has shown a depraved indifference to human life?

sethherr 6y ago

As a pacifist (in high school, no longer), I took issue with the US war in Iraq and refused to stand during the national anthem in classrooms. I was not arrested, or fined - just teased by fellow students. One thing being fought over is disrespecting the Chinese national anthem. Sure, I might not be “the average person” but that’s the point, small deviations are criminalized.

hker 6y ago

TL;DR: limiting freedom of expression in name of national security, without a just trial. Stretching a bit, we call it the freedom from fear (of unjust prosecution), which is the—arguably justified—distrust of the rule by law in China (not the rule of law that Hong Kong previously had). Note that Hong Kong people are using “Freedom from Fear” [1] differently from how US is using it [2]. Chinese courts work very differently from Hong Kong ones: they swing with politics. Many people have been—as perceived by Hong Kongers—unjustly detained or prosecuted (such as the milk powder incidents [3], the two Canadians in China after the Huawei case [4], or the more recent whistleblower Li Wenliang). And those people, in some cases, are sued for charges such as spying or subversion, which is the main theme of the national security law. Given that Chinese agents extracted Hong Kongers in the Causeway Bay Books disappearances [5], Hong Kongers fear that the new national security law (which allows state agents to police Hong Kong [6]) means that Hong Kongers (and perhaps foreigners) may face state agents extraction from Hong Kong. To many Hong Kongers, voicing out for social injustice could mean instability in China, and could mean theft of state secret or subversion as CCP see it. Hence it is limiting freedom of speech. [1]: “Freedom from Fear” is a slogan in Hong Kong protests, see for example this image https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/181114165731-hong-kong-press-freedom-02-medium-plus-169.jpg https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/181114165731-hong-kon... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_from_fear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_from_fear [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal [4]: https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/asia/canada-china-kovrig-spavor-huawei-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/asia/canada-china-kovrig-spav... [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan... [6]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-to-allow-state-security-agents-to-police-hong-kong-11590145427 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-to-allow-state-security-a...

camgunz 6y ago

- freedom of expression - freedom of association - freedom of religion - freedom of the press - the right to privacy - the right to a democratic, representative government - the right to a fair trial - freedom from cruel and unusual punishment The CCP is one of the most oppressive regimes on Earth, depriving its people of even the most basic of rights and freedoms.