5 ms·

I read all these headlines, but when I then followup to read more about the text of the proposed laws [1], I have a hard time seeing that aside from freedom of

I read all these headlines, but when I then followup to read more about the text of the proposed laws [1], I have a hard time seeing that aside from freedom of speech infringements (and ability to imprison, fine based on those -- which are clearly a bit vague in terms of enforcement, but otherwise as bland as a lot of US legislation), these laws are not egregiously different from what exist in some other countries. Aside from the symbolism, can someone enlighten me why they have practical, real worries that this is going to cause some massive political or social change over there? Or whether companies will really shy away from doing business when they already face laws like this elsewhere? Or that the economy there is going to dry up because of this? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_People%27s_Congress_Decision_on_Hong_Kong_national_security_legislation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_People%27s_Congress_D...

jhvkjhk 6y ago
This will cause massive social change because all the headlines said so. Most people won't read the original law, they only read the media's story.
elliekelly 6y ago
There's a reason businesses use Hong Kong as a home base to access the Chinese market and that reason is the legal system. Hong Kong is like the Delaware of China - an established and reliable system that protects business interests. It's fair, it's transparent, and it's predictable. None of those things can be said about China's legal system.
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
The special treatment that Hong Kong gets from various other nations, treatment different from mainland China, is dependent on Hong Kong being viewed as autonomous. The laws in the territory aren’t really the point, what matters is the source of those laws (Beijing as opposed to truly local efforts).
akamaka 6y ago
This law, if implemented fully, will effectively demolish the “one country, two systems” agreement, which has been the basis of Hong Kong’s stability and success for the last 23 years. The Beijing government is pulling out of their side of the deal they made in 1997. What will happen next is not something I can predict, but history shows us some of the things that can happen when communist parties impose their rule onto a new territory. Usually it’s not good for business.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  But as I understand it, the "2 systems" has to do with economic and political governance. I see nothing in those laws about changing the financial or economic systems of the country that would lead businesses to gulp and say no thank you?
  - akamaka 6y ago
    That’s a good question, and it depends on how this line is implemented: “It shall also establish a sound legal system in the HKSAR to maintain national security.” Under the Basic Law, Hong Kong has it’s own legal system, so there is no constitutionally acceptable way Beijing can “establish” new legal system to it’s liking. Perhaps the law is simply a threat, and they won’t take action, but if it is fully implemented, it means the end of the current legal system’s autonomy. The vagueness of this law is a good example of how the PRC’s legal system is very open-ended compared to other countries, and allows for arbitrary action from China’s rulers.
  - vore 6y ago
    I think GP comment about communist parties is not really what the heart of the matter is here: business owners are probably not excited to deal with the opaqueness of the mainland China legal system since it's apparently prone to disappear booksellers over the border and force confessions out of them. That said, maybe the exodus is overhyped: a lot of businesses are already dealing with the mainland government and certainly that's where a lot of them see where the money is, so they might just be forced to play by these new rules whether they like it or not.
  - 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
inimino 6y ago
The ability to have their own laws, their own courts, and their own government is under ongoing and successful attack. Perhaps you're blissfully unaware of the tightening grip of Beijing over the last 20 years, of which this is just the latest incremental move? It's hard to know whether to read your posts as earnest ignorance or subtle propaganda.
alisonatwork 6y ago
I don't think the main problem Hongkongers have with this law is necessarily the content, but the fact it has been pushed on them by an external government which many Hongkongers expected to remain independent from for the next 27 years. From their perspective, having their own government taking marching orders from Beijing undermines the principle of "one country two systems". Aside from the principle of it, there are also several aspects of the proposed law that go beyond what many people consider to be reasonable. Most notable for migrants and tourists is the emphasis on preventing and penalizing "foreign interference", which doesn't sit well in a city that is still the most multicultural in East Asia. Allowing the mainland security apparatus to set up offices in the city is also concerning, given mainland law enforcement is famous for disappearing and torturing people who do not support the single party dictatorship. I think it's fairly clear that this is an opportunistic power-grab by the central government. The coronavirus has allowed them to dramatically increase the intensity of their security measures in the mainland, instituting Xinjiang-style movement tracking apps, "temporary" barricades and checkpoints all over the country. The state media has whipped up intense anti-American hatred, and the government is emboldened by the fact that America is dealing with the virus comparatively poorly. There is a widespread public support for cracking down on Hong Kong, which has been presented here in mainland as a city besieged by terrorists and American agents of chaos, all out to destroy China. I suspect from the point of view of the central government, being able to advance their timetable on the takeover of Hong Kong is the silver lining of this pandemic.
- chrischen 6y ago
  Was Hong Kong ever really independent though?
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    Well, it made its own laws, had a different style of economy, had much greater freedom. From an outsider's perspective (mine), seems so.
    - chrischen 6y ago
av_engr 6y ago
First of all, the law has been used in China to persecute political dissident. (Political dissident in that case is anyone who expose any problems in the country or being vocal about particular problem in the society or government) Second, CCP is planning to bypass Hong Kong Legislature to implement this law as an amendment to the Basic Law (Like an HK constitution). This is completely decided by the CCP government and Hong Kongers has no say over it. Third, Hong Kong has no universal suffrage for its chief executives and Legislative Counsel. In this case, there is no checks and balances. With some draconian law (see National Security law and the previous public emergency ordinance) and lack of checks and balances, Hong Kongers are deeply concern about their freedom in all senses. Lastly, police brutality and the mass persecution on pan-democratic individuals also spooked Hong Konger's confidence on the city itself and its autonomy. The HK HangSeng Index dropped 5% on the first day. Then massive influx of Chinese money came into the market the next day to prop the market up.
hkmaxpro 6y ago
If you blindly trust what’s written, then they do look similar. Much like the Constitution of the PRC stating “citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration.” [1] One would be a fool to believe it’s similar to the US constitution. OK, here’s my answer to your questions: Jimmy Lai runs the biggest pro-democracy newspaper, Apple Daily, in Hong Kong, and his Twitter account was recently named by Chinese state media Global Times as providing “evidence of subversion under new national security law”. [2] Pro-democracy newspaper will be the first to disappear after passing the national security law. Infringement on freedom of press (and speech) would have drastic consequences. Just look at Covid-19. When no newspaper stands up to reveal the scale of a mysterious disease and doctors were forbidden to warn others, the government can cover it up for much longer than in an open society [3], ultimately costing hundreds of thousands more lives [4]. When short selling in China could be classified as “malicious” and “illegal” [5], or as the rumor goes, “a financial coup to overthrow Xi” [6], I doubt Hong Kong can remain an international financial hub under the new law. Media companies also like to stay in Hong Kong [7]. That could change with the new law, and with the loss of free flow of information, financial industry will hurt, too. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_People%27s... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/grjw6s/traitor_jimmy_lai_opens_twitter_account_remarks/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/grjw6s/traitor_ji... [3] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3049606/coronavirus-doctors-death-becomes-catalyst-freedom-speech https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3049606/cor... [4] https://hongkongfp.com/2020/03/14/china-may-prevented-95-virus-cases-acted-silenced-whistleblowers-warning/ https://hongkongfp.com/2020/03/14/china-may-prevented-95-vir... [5] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-stock-crime/chinese-police-visits-regulator-to-probe-malicious-short-selling-idUSKCN0PJ08C20150709 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-stock-crime/chinese... [6] http://www.rfi.fr/tw/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B/20200127-3%E5%B9%B4%E8%A8%98-%E5%82%B3%E8%82%96%E5%BB%BA%E8%8F%AF%E9%82%84%E6%B4%BB%E7%9D%80 http://www.rfi.fr/tw/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B/20200127-3%E5%B9%B4%... (in Chinese) [7] https://www.ejinsight.com/eji/article/id/1104520/20150724-why-hong-kong-is-the-only-asian-hub-for-global-media https://www.ejinsight.com/eji/article/id/1104520/20150724-wh...
camgunz 6y ago
It’s less the text of the law (though it’s vague and meant to function as a pretext for the CCP to take my action in the name of “national security “) and more that they’re inserting it into Article III, which they legally cannot do. It functionally kills HK’s Basic Law.

jhvkjhk 6y ago

This will cause massive social change because all the headlines said so. Most people won't read the original law, they only read the media's story.

elliekelly 6y ago

There's a reason businesses use Hong Kong as a home base to access the Chinese market and that reason is the legal system. Hong Kong is like the Delaware of China - an established and reliable system that protects business interests. It's fair, it's transparent, and it's predictable. None of those things can be said about China's legal system.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago

The special treatment that Hong Kong gets from various other nations, treatment different from mainland China, is dependent on Hong Kong being viewed as autonomous. The laws in the territory aren’t really the point, what matters is the source of those laws (Beijing as opposed to truly local efforts).

akamaka 6y ago

This law, if implemented fully, will effectively demolish the “one country, two systems” agreement, which has been the basis of Hong Kong’s stability and success for the last 23 years. The Beijing government is pulling out of their side of the deal they made in 1997. What will happen next is not something I can predict, but history shows us some of the things that can happen when communist parties impose their rule onto a new territory. Usually it’s not good for business.

supernova87a 6y ago
But as I understand it, the "2 systems" has to do with economic and political governance. I see nothing in those laws about changing the financial or economic systems of the country that would lead businesses to gulp and say no thank you?
- akamaka 6y ago
  That’s a good question, and it depends on how this line is implemented: “It shall also establish a sound legal system in the HKSAR to maintain national security.” Under the Basic Law, Hong Kong has it’s own legal system, so there is no constitutionally acceptable way Beijing can “establish” new legal system to it’s liking. Perhaps the law is simply a threat, and they won’t take action, but if it is fully implemented, it means the end of the current legal system’s autonomy. The vagueness of this law is a good example of how the PRC’s legal system is very open-ended compared to other countries, and allows for arbitrary action from China’s rulers.
- vore 6y ago
  I think GP comment about communist parties is not really what the heart of the matter is here: business owners are probably not excited to deal with the opaqueness of the mainland China legal system since it's apparently prone to disappear booksellers over the border and force confessions out of them. That said, maybe the exodus is overhyped: a lot of businesses are already dealing with the mainland government and certainly that's where a lot of them see where the money is, so they might just be forced to play by these new rules whether they like it or not.
- 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

inimino 6y ago

The ability to have their own laws, their own courts, and their own government is under ongoing and successful attack. Perhaps you're blissfully unaware of the tightening grip of Beijing over the last 20 years, of which this is just the latest incremental move? It's hard to know whether to read your posts as earnest ignorance or subtle propaganda.

alisonatwork 6y ago

I don't think the main problem Hongkongers have with this law is necessarily the content, but the fact it has been pushed on them by an external government which many Hongkongers expected to remain independent from for the next 27 years. From their perspective, having their own government taking marching orders from Beijing undermines the principle of "one country two systems". Aside from the principle of it, there are also several aspects of the proposed law that go beyond what many people consider to be reasonable. Most notable for migrants and tourists is the emphasis on preventing and penalizing "foreign interference", which doesn't sit well in a city that is still the most multicultural in East Asia. Allowing the mainland security apparatus to set up offices in the city is also concerning, given mainland law enforcement is famous for disappearing and torturing people who do not support the single party dictatorship. I think it's fairly clear that this is an opportunistic power-grab by the central government. The coronavirus has allowed them to dramatically increase the intensity of their security measures in the mainland, instituting Xinjiang-style movement tracking apps, "temporary" barricades and checkpoints all over the country. The state media has whipped up intense anti-American hatred, and the government is emboldened by the fact that America is dealing with the virus comparatively poorly. There is a widespread public support for cracking down on Hong Kong, which has been presented here in mainland as a city besieged by terrorists and American agents of chaos, all out to destroy China. I suspect from the point of view of the central government, being able to advance their timetable on the takeover of Hong Kong is the silver lining of this pandemic.

chrischen 6y ago
Was Hong Kong ever really independent though?
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  Well, it made its own laws, had a different style of economy, had much greater freedom. From an outsider's perspective (mine), seems so.
  - chrischen 6y ago

av_engr 6y ago

First of all, the law has been used in China to persecute political dissident. (Political dissident in that case is anyone who expose any problems in the country or being vocal about particular problem in the society or government) Second, CCP is planning to bypass Hong Kong Legislature to implement this law as an amendment to the Basic Law (Like an HK constitution). This is completely decided by the CCP government and Hong Kongers has no say over it. Third, Hong Kong has no universal suffrage for its chief executives and Legislative Counsel. In this case, there is no checks and balances. With some draconian law (see National Security law and the previous public emergency ordinance) and lack of checks and balances, Hong Kongers are deeply concern about their freedom in all senses. Lastly, police brutality and the mass persecution on pan-democratic individuals also spooked Hong Konger's confidence on the city itself and its autonomy. The HK HangSeng Index dropped 5% on the first day. Then massive influx of Chinese money came into the market the next day to prop the market up.

hkmaxpro 6y ago

If you blindly trust what’s written, then they do look similar. Much like the Constitution of the PRC stating “citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration.” [1] One would be a fool to believe it’s similar to the US constitution. OK, here’s my answer to your questions: Jimmy Lai runs the biggest pro-democracy newspaper, Apple Daily, in Hong Kong, and his Twitter account was recently named by Chinese state media Global Times as providing “evidence of subversion under new national security law”. [2] Pro-democracy newspaper will be the first to disappear after passing the national security law. Infringement on freedom of press (and speech) would have drastic consequences. Just look at Covid-19. When no newspaper stands up to reveal the scale of a mysterious disease and doctors were forbidden to warn others, the government can cover it up for much longer than in an open society [3], ultimately costing hundreds of thousands more lives [4]. When short selling in China could be classified as “malicious” and “illegal” [5], or as the rumor goes, “a financial coup to overthrow Xi” [6], I doubt Hong Kong can remain an international financial hub under the new law. Media companies also like to stay in Hong Kong [7]. That could change with the new law, and with the loss of free flow of information, financial industry will hurt, too. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_People%27s... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/grjw6s/traitor_jimmy_lai_opens_twitter_account_remarks/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/grjw6s/traitor_ji... [3] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3049606/coronavirus-doctors-death-becomes-catalyst-freedom-speech https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3049606/cor... [4] https://hongkongfp.com/2020/03/14/china-may-prevented-95-virus-cases-acted-silenced-whistleblowers-warning/ https://hongkongfp.com/2020/03/14/china-may-prevented-95-vir... [5] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-stock-crime/chinese-police-visits-regulator-to-probe-malicious-short-selling-idUSKCN0PJ08C20150709 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-stock-crime/chinese... [6] http://www.rfi.fr/tw/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B/20200127-3%E5%B9%B4%E8%A8%98-%E5%82%B3%E8%82%96%E5%BB%BA%E8%8F%AF%E9%82%84%E6%B4%BB%E7%9D%80 http://www.rfi.fr/tw/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B/20200127-3%E5%B9%B4%... (in Chinese) [7] https://www.ejinsight.com/eji/article/id/1104520/20150724-why-hong-kong-is-the-only-asian-hub-for-global-media https://www.ejinsight.com/eji/article/id/1104520/20150724-wh...

camgunz 6y ago

It’s less the text of the law (though it’s vague and meant to function as a pretext for the CCP to take my action in the name of “national security “) and more that they’re inserting it into Article III, which they legally cannot do. It functionally kills HK’s Basic Law.