7 ms·

South-korea, Taiwan and a few other Asian democracies have shown great organisational skills in this crisis. The title "catching it early" suggested to me that

by toshk 6y ago

South-korea, Taiwan and a few other Asian democracies have shown great organisational skills in this crisis. The title "catching it early" suggested to me that the article would be about macro solutions for societies to "catch it early". For instance sewage detection: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/coronavirus-in-sewage-portended-covid-19-outbreak-in-dutch-city https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/coronavir...

Ensorceled 6y ago
This appears to be a non seqitur. Why did the success of Asian countries make you think that this would be about something else? Especially since a lot of South Korea's success was tied to the their extensive testing efforts. Taiwan's success attributed almost entirely to their taking a far more aggressive approach to isolation than WHO was recommending (also notable, Taiwan is not part of WHO due to China's efforts to keep them out).
- arcticbull 6y ago
  > Taiwan is not part of WHO due to China's efforts to keep them out. Taiwan isn't part of the WHO because the WHO is part of the UN and broadly speaking, member states of the UN -- the United States included -- don't officially recognize Taiwan. As an aside, the US relationship with Taiwan is entirely unofficial. The US political stance follows the One China policy and recognizes Beijing as the capital of a China inclusive of both what is colloquially the PRC and the ROC. For what it's worth, it's likely due to the close (if challenging) relationship the PRC and ROC enjoy that Taiwan was able to get a head start on containment.
  - adventured 6y ago
    > As an aside, the US relationship with Taiwan is entirely unofficial. The US political stance follows the One China policy and recognizes Beijing as the capital of a China inclusive of both what is colloquially the PRC and the ROC. That's false on multiple counts. The official US policy only acknowledges China's position and does not recognize China as having sovereignty over Taiwan. This has been clarified publicly on numerous occasions since the early 1980s. The Taiwan Travel Act further upgraded US-Taiwan relations and made them official. That's why China was so upset by it - publicly stating that it violated their One-China principle - and why the Taiwanese President was able to freely travel to the US afterward.
  - toshk 6y ago
    PRC's influence is shocking. I remember that some Taiwanese officials attended a conference in Amsterdam called "we make the city" and even local neighbourhood politicians were not allowed to officially meet them, let alone take pictures with them.
  - Ensorceled 6y ago
    WHO membership given to countries that are members of the United Nations AND countries whose applications are approved by the World Health Assembly. WHA has stopped inviting Taiwan to WHO meetings. A travel ban to China and Hong Kong was certainly far less of a political issue in Taiwan than it was in the US or Canada for instance.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  What specific isolation measures not recommended by the WHO are you claiming Taiwan took? > Taiwan is not part of WHO due to China's efforts to keep them out Taiwan was previously an observer at the WHA, under a similar agreement as used to take part in the Olympics and other international organizations. They used the name "Chinese Taipei." That agreement broke down when Taiwanese nationalists came to power (as opposed to the Chinese nationalists in Taiwan).
  - Ensorceled 6y ago
    For instance, they took a hard line on international travel while WHO was still saying such bans were counter productive. Thanks for the details on Taiwan vis a vis the WHO.
    - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
      When I hear "isolation," I think patient isolation, not travel restrictions. From very early on, the WHO recommended patient isolation as a precaution against possible human-to-human transmission. The WHO is required by the international treaty that governs it to advise against travel restrictions, unless there is strong evidence that they will be effective. Since the research prior to this pandemic has tended to show that travel restrictions are ineffective for highly contagious respiratory viruses, the WHO advises against travel restrictions. Most people don't understand this, which makes the WHO an easy target for criticism. If countries want the WHO to recommend travel restrictions, they should amend the International Health Regulations. The WHO did, however, recommend extensive testing, which worked well for South Korea (without travel bans, I think).
      - Ensorceled 6y ago
        I don't know what to say, sorry for the confusion around isolation? Right, this is exactly what various sources are attributing Taiwan's success to, since they were not part of WHO, they were able to implement stronger travel restrictions, earlier.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- toshk 6y ago
  you are right, first and second paragraph had no connection, just 2 random thoughts poorly written :)

by toshk 6y ago

Ensorceled 6y ago

This appears to be a non seqitur. Why did the success of Asian countries make you think that this would be about something else? Especially since a lot of South Korea's success was tied to the their extensive testing efforts. Taiwan's success attributed almost entirely to their taking a far more aggressive approach to isolation than WHO was recommending (also notable, Taiwan is not part of WHO due to China's efforts to keep them out).

arcticbull 6y ago
> Taiwan is not part of WHO due to China's efforts to keep them out. Taiwan isn't part of the WHO because the WHO is part of the UN and broadly speaking, member states of the UN -- the United States included -- don't officially recognize Taiwan. As an aside, the US relationship with Taiwan is entirely unofficial. The US political stance follows the One China policy and recognizes Beijing as the capital of a China inclusive of both what is colloquially the PRC and the ROC. For what it's worth, it's likely due to the close (if challenging) relationship the PRC and ROC enjoy that Taiwan was able to get a head start on containment.
- adventured 6y ago
  > As an aside, the US relationship with Taiwan is entirely unofficial. The US political stance follows the One China policy and recognizes Beijing as the capital of a China inclusive of both what is colloquially the PRC and the ROC. That's false on multiple counts. The official US policy only acknowledges China's position and does not recognize China as having sovereignty over Taiwan. This has been clarified publicly on numerous occasions since the early 1980s. The Taiwan Travel Act further upgraded US-Taiwan relations and made them official. That's why China was so upset by it - publicly stating that it violated their One-China principle - and why the Taiwanese President was able to freely travel to the US afterward.
- toshk 6y ago
  PRC's influence is shocking. I remember that some Taiwanese officials attended a conference in Amsterdam called "we make the city" and even local neighbourhood politicians were not allowed to officially meet them, let alone take pictures with them.
- Ensorceled 6y ago
  WHO membership given to countries that are members of the United Nations AND countries whose applications are approved by the World Health Assembly. WHA has stopped inviting Taiwan to WHO meetings. A travel ban to China and Hong Kong was certainly far less of a political issue in Taiwan than it was in the US or Canada for instance.
DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
What specific isolation measures not recommended by the WHO are you claiming Taiwan took? > Taiwan is not part of WHO due to China's efforts to keep them out Taiwan was previously an observer at the WHA, under a similar agreement as used to take part in the Olympics and other international organizations. They used the name "Chinese Taipei." That agreement broke down when Taiwanese nationalists came to power (as opposed to the Chinese nationalists in Taiwan).
- Ensorceled 6y ago
  For instance, they took a hard line on international travel while WHO was still saying such bans were counter productive. Thanks for the details on Taiwan vis a vis the WHO.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    When I hear "isolation," I think patient isolation, not travel restrictions. From very early on, the WHO recommended patient isolation as a precaution against possible human-to-human transmission. The WHO is required by the international treaty that governs it to advise against travel restrictions, unless there is strong evidence that they will be effective. Since the research prior to this pandemic has tended to show that travel restrictions are ineffective for highly contagious respiratory viruses, the WHO advises against travel restrictions. Most people don't understand this, which makes the WHO an easy target for criticism. If countries want the WHO to recommend travel restrictions, they should amend the International Health Regulations. The WHO did, however, recommend extensive testing, which worked well for South Korea (without travel bans, I think).
    - Ensorceled 6y ago
      I don't know what to say, sorry for the confusion around isolation? Right, this is exactly what various sources are attributing Taiwan's success to, since they were not part of WHO, they were able to implement stronger travel restrictions, earlier.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
toshk 6y ago
you are right, first and second paragraph had no connection, just 2 random thoughts poorly written :)