10 ms·

Web developer will work for you for free

327 points by v-t 16y ago

bradleyland 16y ago
Don't sell yourself short, Vladimir. If you're going to work for free, try contributing to an open source project you find interesting. If you're going to work for a for-profit company, you should be paid :)
- futuremint 16y ago
  He does say that after a few weeks he expects to get hired. But he should totally charge an hourly rate instead of free. I know people would pay for it.
  - latch 16y ago
    he says after a few months. I generally agree with your parent that he ought to spend that time doing something that can showcase his skills and increase his chance to get hired. He can gain more exposure working on something in the open (a personal project, an OSS project) than doing some work for a single company.
  - jarin 16y ago
    Exactly, there's a big difference between pro bono and paid work. And trust me, the people you do free work for will expect A LOT MORE from you. I would say the exceptions would be: a) it's a charity or a cause that you like, or b) you really need to improve a particular skill and it's more of an internship you're looking for. Either way though, I give you mad props for initiative.
- v-t 16y ago
  I am considering open source as good place to learn and to generate some value for people. I do love sinatra framework. I pull source and read diffs every couple days. But they have core team which fixes all bugs in seconds, so I cannot find application there. And my goal is more to make some contacts and to know people in this field. I always was a silent reader and now I want to communicate with intresting people.
  - bad_user 16y ago
    Vladimir, open source contributions tend to suck unless you're scratching an itch for yourself. You don't contribute for the sake of contributing, that's not going to work. That's why you shouldn't work on Sinatra and other open source tools meant for developers. Instead, build an app for a much wider audience. Do what an entrepreneur trying to sell his app would do, but with open-source - i.e. the end goal being to have real users that appreciate your work. Here's the perfect example: https://github.com/michaeldv/fat_free_crm https://github.com/michaeldv/fat_free_crm
  - yawniek 16y ago
    have you looked at http://padrinorb.com http://padrinorb.com its based on sinatra and has still open tickets.
- codeslush 16y ago
  It seems to me that what he's doing is rather smart. It gives him an chance to be exposed to more opportunities than if he was trying to get hired and he can pick those on which he wishes to take a risk. I would certainly change the wording a little to weed out the people who will just try to take advantage, but the overall strategy seems quite appropriate. This will work very well for a person who's confident in their skills, but maybe having a hard time finding income from traditional sources. Get in, kick butt, make a statement and earn income.
  - v-t 16y ago
    My idea is to do exactly what you say.
  - bad_user 16y ago
    Working on open-source has the same benefits, and while a good profitable gig coming from that would probably take longer than 1 or 2 months, the benefits of being a known open-source author will last for much longer and fare much better going forward. I swear, every time someone (with a known/useful open-source contribution) came to an interview for any company I worked for, everybody was drooling uncontrollably and thinking "how the hell could we please this guy to stay, after all, he's Google material".
  - tomlin 16y ago
    Unfortunately, more often than not, this mentality is taken advantage of. To the pressured manager, Vlad provides an easy-out. It also sets a bad tone for the relationship between employer and employee. It's also a negotiation uphill battle to go from $0 to $50,000/year. Any looming economic crisis multiplies the battle, and in turn, valuable enthusiasm for the industry. His work is probably better than most, but his self-esteem regarding his abilities is apparent - especially to an employer.
    - codeslush 16y ago
      While I don't completely disagree with you, I think his chances of success are better than spending x amount of time applying for jobs trying to get an interview. I don't recall which company, but in the last two weeks, one of the big name startups put out a competition to solve a problem regarding log file parsing. It was an opportunity, basically, to get a job with them. Now, with this approach, the OP might be competing with thousands of others - and his chances of standing out are reduced. He's taken the inverse approach, and HE can pick the challenges he wishes to solve, with same end goal: income. It's not unique - it's what a lot of driven people have done in the past to get in the door somewhere.
- mattdeboard 16y ago
  This does seem to be a mantra on HN. I can't speak for anyone else, but where I live "junior developer" positions are looking for 3+ years experience, "Preferably" a masters degree in computer science, expert Linux, HTML and JavaScript, and so forth. While globally it is a hacker's job market, those of us who are not currently free to move to where the jobs are (I'm a single parent and don't want to uproot my kid again) sometimes have to try to get our foot in the door in this employer's market by begging for the chance to work even for free. Not trying to be a Debbie Downer at all, by the way. I moved from the valley to the Midwest (I know, I know...) so I know that there are tons of jobs for people like me (and Vlad, probably). However in my opinion "Don't work for free for a for-profit company!" isn't advice everyone is in a position to follow. I wish I could. (Disclaimer: I am a junior dev with Django/js experience in both personal and open-source projects, without a degree. So take my whining for what it's worth.)
  - bradleyland 16y ago
    Don't sell yourself short either. If you can't get paying work doing what you're doing, take the startup advice and pivot.
    - mattdeboard 16y ago
      If I had a single great idea, I would :P Best I've done is build a pinboard clone.
      - blrgeek 16y ago
        There you go then! Just pick one, and start banging away :) http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+Dump+March+2011+Edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+Dump+March+2011+Edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+February+2011+edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+February+2011+editi... http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+January+2011+edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+January+2011+editio... http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are+looking+for+inspiration http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are...
      - 16y ago
- Vivtek 16y ago
  You can also do work for non-profits or charities. Sparked.com always has some Web-related work that you could easily do in a couple of hours at a whack and build up a portfolio. (Sparked.com being a site I learned about here, and I've done a couple of little tasks there.)
- tmachinecharmer 16y ago
  Do startups that are not making profit qualify as non-profit organizations?
  - jat850 16y ago
    That's probably tongue in cheek, but in case it's not: No, absolutely, definitely not.
- viralinfection 16y ago
  while that's generally good advice; i think vlad goal is lead generation, he hit the top of HN, im sure he'll find gainful employment
  - v-t 16y ago
    To be honest, I was looking at filled submit link form about 10 minutes, thinking that my offer don't worth people time. I hoped to get something like 3 comments. So much attention is amazing to me. This was not planned as clever lead gen trick.
- paolomaffei 16y ago
  I believe it is called an "internship"
  - swecker 16y ago
    Many people have a misconception about this. An intern is a hired position (albeit temporary), and working for free is simply volunteering. There are unpaid interns, but there are probably more misconceptions about that. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?_r=2 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?_r=...
micheljansen 16y ago
I just hope that whoever hires him gives him something truly challenging and engaging to do. The biggest risk of working for free is that people think that since it doesn't cost anything anyway, it doesn't matter what he does (e.g. the internship curse).
tokenadult 16y ago
Are for-profit enterprises in the United States allowed to accept free labor? I know that nonprofit organizations can accept volunteer labor (and do so all the time), but I thought that business corporations and business partnerships that check the law (in the United States, at least) find out that they cannot accept free labor. What are the applicable laws involved here?
- zecho 16y ago
  Unpaid internships are legal in the United States. I know of a few businesses that build these internships into their model as a way of keeping costs down. The Department of Labor has a smell test for them: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm
  - AndyParkinson 16y ago
    The link to the DOL is broken. Any chance you can give the name of the "smell test"?
    - zacharycohn 16y ago
      "The following six criteria must be applied when making this determination: 1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment; 2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern; 3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff; 4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded; 5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and 6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship." Source: [pdf] http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dol.gov%2Fwhd%2Fregs%2Fcompliance%2Fwhdfs71.pdf&ei=Q-SATfeZJ4a-sAOkid2OBg&usg=AFQjCNG_RJ4Ukq4Tn76HTyADk_tYljlrgg http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&v...
imaginator 16y ago
replying on hn since this may interest some other folks too. If you are interested in building something of worth and like the idea of open social networks and producing opensource software, there's always small modules that need building to make buddycloud feature complete. Pick a part of the architecture that looks interesting to you (http://m.buddycloud.com/tmp/proofs/buddycloud%20architecture.png http://m.buddycloud.com/tmp/proofs/buddycloud%20architecture...) and chat to the rest of the team in our chatroom. More dev details on http://open.buddycloud.com http://open.buddycloud.com We also have some cash coming in... not a huge amount but enough to provide some support if you turn out to be good.
acconrad 16y ago
Vladimir, you should find the open source projects that interest you and work on those, or build plugins for them. Why not volunteer for Rails or Sinatra? Or write Emacs plugins/extensions? Write about your experiences with these systems...blogging and contributing to open source will absolutely get you the contacts you are looking for, without having to resort to working in enterprise for free. While I would personally love the free help, I don't think any ethical entrepreneur here on HN would take free work, and we'd all encourage you to at least charge for what you're doing if it's going to be with a for-profit company.
brockf 16y ago
There is really something wrong in the job market when I work two years to get a good hire for my small development company (at a good hourly rate, telecommuting, etc.) and people like Vladimir have to give away their services...
- deleted 16y ago
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trustfundbaby 16y ago
Makes sense on paper but its a bad move, trust me, I've been there ... people simply don't appreciate free labor the way they would if they paid something for it. Smarter move is to say "Hey, I bill out at $80/hr but to work at your startup I'll only bill $20/hr for 2 months", then make sure to send an invoice every 2 weeks with the bill at $80/hr with a line item showing the discount ... that way they are reminded of how lucky they are to have you. PS: All this is moot if you aren't actually awesome at coding.
- brandnewlow 16y ago
  This is a great idea.
  - trustfundbaby 16y ago
    glad you think so ... just remember that idea comes from failing often ... being burned numerous times by people who took advantage of my free labor :)
- Kilimanjaro 16y ago
  This is exactly the advice I was going to give Vlad. Start at a low $10 and work your way up the ladder. If your first contractor is happy with your work (ie. he'll be extremely happy for how cheap you developed a 100 man-hour project for 1k instead of 10k) then he will gladly pay you more for the next gig, or at least refer you to some colleagues. Then charge $20, then $30, and in no time you will have built a rock solid reputation and in a year you will be able to charge whatever you want based on your skills. Never do work for free, ever. That diminishes your value and moral, and as collateral damage the coding market suffers as more and more people start working for peanuts.
  - phatbyte 16y ago
    I couldn't have said it better
- shortlived 16y ago
  But will this work with someone living and working in Russia? It's one thing to work remotely in the US for a US company and it's an entirely different ballgame to do this when you are outside the US. Am I right? EDIT: grammar
eyalfx 16y ago
Vladimir, I'm not sure if what is your visa situation, but getting a work visa in the US is very hard and takes a lot of time and effort. I would start researching it right away and collecting your documents (degrees, awards, letters of reference, etc...). If you just want to come visit, you won't be able to work here with a tourist visa so start looking into it. Good luck.
- Luyt 16y ago
  Suppose Vladimir has an incorporated business in Russia, comes to the USA with his laptop and does some work for a USA startup from his laptop VPNned to his home base in Russia. The bills are sent from his Russian business address. After a while when his tourist visum expires, he flies back. Would this be viable?
  - eyalfx 16y ago
    First, I'm not an immigration lawyer so don't take my advice. However, I've been through a lot before I got my green-card and very familiar with the process. Coming here as a tourist and working (even for a Russian company) is illegal. even if you come here just for a tech conference without working, it's considered a business trip. bottom line, you have to declare you are here on a business trip cause they will check your laptop, go though your emails, find out you are performing some work for a US entity and deny your entrance and take away your visa. Definitely, not something I would recommend.
megamark16 16y ago
Hey Vladimir, what kind of salary range are you looking for when you get hired on full time? Or what hourly rate are you looking for if someone was to work with you for a little while and decide "hey, this guy is awesome, I need to start paying him enough that he'll stick around and keep helping us out"?
lachyg 16y ago
Email coming. I've got a small project I need done, it's basically tweaks to an existing one. More than happy to pay, though.
rorrr 16y ago
Start your own project. Something you love. Come up with an idea. Execute it well. And unless you're rich and don't need money, do not work for free.
colinplamondon 16y ago
Just emailed you. Bootstrapped startup with 2.5m iOS installs, just now expanding to web, and in need of Ruby/Rails/Web Frontend devs :)
adlep 16y ago
I could never accept such an offer. I hope that Vladimir will gets at least a minimum U.S. hourly rate for his efforts. Edit: A minimum US hourly wage is a very decent pay in Russia.
- karolist 16y ago
  Quick google tells me its $7.25/hour, is that really the case? Sure is decent in most of Russia, depends on the city though.
  - adlep 16y ago
    It is indeed the case. You really can't live off it in the US though...
- deleted 16y ago
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malandrew 16y ago
Do you have a portfolio or GitHub profile? You mention Backbone.js. Do you hang out on #documentcloud on freenode?
fara 16y ago
Work for full-price or free, never for cheap. Good luck!
apike 16y ago
I got a good job once by offering to trade 5 hours a week of work for desk space to (ostensibly) work on contracting. Within a couple weeks they were paying me full time. This is probably a better approach than offering half time for free.
Kilimanjaro 16y ago
Whomever hires Vlad, please pay the guy at least $10 an hour and gain some respect from the community not to be seen as a greedy bastard abuser. That, and all the life-karma you'll get. Idea HN: Create a page for 'Hackers in need' where people can offer their services for $10/hr until they get out of the trouble zone. Lots of people can benefit from some quick and inexpensive coding while helping a fellow coder.
- dhruvbird 16y ago
  I like this "hackers in need idea". Though there needs to be a way to keep out the leechers/time wasters. A turing test of sorts or captcha for programmers?? Dunno...
  - Kilimanjaro 16y ago
    Votes and reviews will help in keeping the bad apples at the bottom (until they improve their skills).
  - natnat 16y ago
    You can require anyone trying to sign up to complete a reasonably difficult programming problem. It could either be sandboxed on the server, like Facebook's engineering puzzles, or require a short output like Project Euler. This would drive away people who can't do FizzBuzz and nontechnical people who want to hire someone to make Facebook for dogs or whatever.
mrchess 16y ago
I'm always wary of free labor, mostly because I did some before so I know what it can feel like. When you work for free, you never feel obligated to deliever or perform at your best because nobody is paying you, so if you get fed up you can just leave -- why put up with the bad environment? Sure it might be fun for a week or two, but people get bored, and it is usually monetary of personal incentives that keep us going. Working for free provides neither of these. It isn't my project, nor am I getting anything in exchange. Now I'm not saying that he will be like this, but this flipside of mentality is definitely something to consider when you hire "free" labor.
abcd_f 16y ago
Cut down 2 months to 2-3 weeks and your offer will pass for a reasonable probation period, albeit free to the hiring company. Alternatively, and this is more in line with what others are saying, - say "free 2-3 weeks of probation period and then pay me for this time if we continue working together." I am just looking at this whole situation from employer's perspective, and the ability to test a developer for few weeks (and not needing to pay if he does not work out) is a really attractive proposition. On the other hand I would not consider dealing with a dev who's ready to work completely for free. Based on my past experience such devs are either seriously underqualified (and through that unreliable and require lots of mentoring and hand-holding) or they would gear down and slack if the project is not truly interesting for them. The money factor serves as a retainer and the conditional payment works as an incentive. Think about it ;)
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bugmenot 16y ago
One gets what one pays for.
RRiccio 16y ago
Just sent you an email Vladimir.
mncolinlee 16y ago
If he really works for free and just got 200 pts on HN, then his time costs too much of mine.
- mncolinlee 16y ago
  Woah, hey. I wasn't trolling at all. I was suggesting the guy will be WAY too busy for me to ask for anything.
deleted 16y ago
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dhruvbird 16y ago
While I agree that you shouldn't sell yourself short, I think it is also interesting that somone is taking the first step in letting their potential employer validate a potential employee's potential (too much potential there). Also, it lets the employee validate the quality of the work. I think it;s okay if done for a couple weeks (short project/assignment). If the employer likes him, he/she can pay him for the work done - out of goodwill. Everyone wins (only in a perfect world).
SkyMarshal 16y ago
"I can perform task like making your html pass validation tests, writing js widgets, adding ascii art to your nginx conf, writing specs for your code or hopefully implementing new features at your beloved startup." I see what you did there. Testing to see if people are reading it all, are we? :D
pnathan 16y ago
Before I got hired on at my current job, I had planned to find a local charity and build a pro bono site for them. It (1) would give me experience and (2) would help out a charity I favored. I didn't wind up having to do that, but I absolutely think it's not a bad idea. Although of course you do leave yourself open to abuse if you don't have a good line in the sand visible to all.
Cococabasa 16y ago
It's great that there are people here offering up opportunities to do this. There's a Rails one up there, and if you can put that on your resume, it's a plus.
luiscosio 16y ago
Vladimir, if you are interested in working on a startup in México as paid intern. Ping me.
nethsix 16y ago
Hiring someone for free is a two-way risk. If you are working on some prototype, will you reveal the general core idea to him? If you do, he might run away with it. If you don't, he will get bored and run away. I'm not saying that he may be bad but just trying to highlight the two-way issue.
giardini 16y ago
Ahhh, the old "Mark Zuckerberg" ruse! No thanks, dude!
ateacc 16y ago
Vladimir, I won't hire a developer to work for free. But if you can pay me 5$ (I donno what's the unit they talk here per hour, per day or even per week) I'll assign you work. And... you can have all the experience. Your 1st assignment: As my office work is worse than yours like ftping files sending reports etc. you can create some apps for teaching me Ruby, Javascript etc. and then add my details too in you website.

327 points by v-t 16y ago

Don't sell yourself short, Vladimir. If you're going to work for free, try contributing to an open source project you find interesting. If you're going to work for a for-profit company, you should be paid :)

futuremint 16y ago
He does say that after a few weeks he expects to get hired. But he should totally charge an hourly rate instead of free. I know people would pay for it.
- latch 16y ago
  he says after a few months. I generally agree with your parent that he ought to spend that time doing something that can showcase his skills and increase his chance to get hired. He can gain more exposure working on something in the open (a personal project, an OSS project) than doing some work for a single company.
- jarin 16y ago
  Exactly, there's a big difference between pro bono and paid work. And trust me, the people you do free work for will expect A LOT MORE from you. I would say the exceptions would be: a) it's a charity or a cause that you like, or b) you really need to improve a particular skill and it's more of an internship you're looking for. Either way though, I give you mad props for initiative.
v-t 16y ago
I am considering open source as good place to learn and to generate some value for people. I do love sinatra framework. I pull source and read diffs every couple days. But they have core team which fixes all bugs in seconds, so I cannot find application there. And my goal is more to make some contacts and to know people in this field. I always was a silent reader and now I want to communicate with intresting people.
- bad_user 16y ago
  Vladimir, open source contributions tend to suck unless you're scratching an itch for yourself. You don't contribute for the sake of contributing, that's not going to work. That's why you shouldn't work on Sinatra and other open source tools meant for developers. Instead, build an app for a much wider audience. Do what an entrepreneur trying to sell his app would do, but with open-source - i.e. the end goal being to have real users that appreciate your work. Here's the perfect example: https://github.com/michaeldv/fat_free_crm https://github.com/michaeldv/fat_free_crm
- yawniek 16y ago
  have you looked at http://padrinorb.com http://padrinorb.com its based on sinatra and has still open tickets.
codeslush 16y ago
It seems to me that what he's doing is rather smart. It gives him an chance to be exposed to more opportunities than if he was trying to get hired and he can pick those on which he wishes to take a risk. I would certainly change the wording a little to weed out the people who will just try to take advantage, but the overall strategy seems quite appropriate. This will work very well for a person who's confident in their skills, but maybe having a hard time finding income from traditional sources. Get in, kick butt, make a statement and earn income.
- v-t 16y ago
  My idea is to do exactly what you say.
- bad_user 16y ago
  Working on open-source has the same benefits, and while a good profitable gig coming from that would probably take longer than 1 or 2 months, the benefits of being a known open-source author will last for much longer and fare much better going forward. I swear, every time someone (with a known/useful open-source contribution) came to an interview for any company I worked for, everybody was drooling uncontrollably and thinking "how the hell could we please this guy to stay, after all, he's Google material".
- tomlin 16y ago
  Unfortunately, more often than not, this mentality is taken advantage of. To the pressured manager, Vlad provides an easy-out. It also sets a bad tone for the relationship between employer and employee. It's also a negotiation uphill battle to go from $0 to $50,000/year. Any looming economic crisis multiplies the battle, and in turn, valuable enthusiasm for the industry. His work is probably better than most, but his self-esteem regarding his abilities is apparent - especially to an employer.
  - codeslush 16y ago
    While I don't completely disagree with you, I think his chances of success are better than spending x amount of time applying for jobs trying to get an interview. I don't recall which company, but in the last two weeks, one of the big name startups put out a competition to solve a problem regarding log file parsing. It was an opportunity, basically, to get a job with them. Now, with this approach, the OP might be competing with thousands of others - and his chances of standing out are reduced. He's taken the inverse approach, and HE can pick the challenges he wishes to solve, with same end goal: income. It's not unique - it's what a lot of driven people have done in the past to get in the door somewhere.
mattdeboard 16y ago
This does seem to be a mantra on HN. I can't speak for anyone else, but where I live "junior developer" positions are looking for 3+ years experience, "Preferably" a masters degree in computer science, expert Linux, HTML and JavaScript, and so forth. While globally it is a hacker's job market, those of us who are not currently free to move to where the jobs are (I'm a single parent and don't want to uproot my kid again) sometimes have to try to get our foot in the door in this employer's market by begging for the chance to work even for free. Not trying to be a Debbie Downer at all, by the way. I moved from the valley to the Midwest (I know, I know...) so I know that there are tons of jobs for people like me (and Vlad, probably). However in my opinion "Don't work for free for a for-profit company!" isn't advice everyone is in a position to follow. I wish I could. (Disclaimer: I am a junior dev with Django/js experience in both personal and open-source projects, without a degree. So take my whining for what it's worth.)
- bradleyland 16y ago
  Don't sell yourself short either. If you can't get paying work doing what you're doing, take the startup advice and pivot.
  - mattdeboard 16y ago
    If I had a single great idea, I would :P Best I've done is build a pinboard clone.
    - blrgeek 16y ago
      There you go then! Just pick one, and start banging away :) http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+Dump+March+2011+Edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+Dump+March+2011+Edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+February+2011+edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+February+2011+editi... http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+January+2011+edition http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Idea+dump+January+2011+editio... http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are+looking+for+inspiration http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are...
    - 16y ago
Vivtek 16y ago
You can also do work for non-profits or charities. Sparked.com always has some Web-related work that you could easily do in a couple of hours at a whack and build up a portfolio. (Sparked.com being a site I learned about here, and I've done a couple of little tasks there.)
tmachinecharmer 16y ago
Do startups that are not making profit qualify as non-profit organizations?
- jat850 16y ago
  That's probably tongue in cheek, but in case it's not: No, absolutely, definitely not.
viralinfection 16y ago
while that's generally good advice; i think vlad goal is lead generation, he hit the top of HN, im sure he'll find gainful employment
- v-t 16y ago
  To be honest, I was looking at filled submit link form about 10 minutes, thinking that my offer don't worth people time. I hoped to get something like 3 comments. So much attention is amazing to me. This was not planned as clever lead gen trick.
paolomaffei 16y ago
I believe it is called an "internship"
- swecker 16y ago
  Many people have a misconception about this. An intern is a hired position (albeit temporary), and working for free is simply volunteering. There are unpaid interns, but there are probably more misconceptions about that. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?_r=2 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?_r=...

micheljansen 16y ago

I just hope that whoever hires him gives him something truly challenging and engaging to do. The biggest risk of working for free is that people think that since it doesn't cost anything anyway, it doesn't matter what he does (e.g. the internship curse).

tokenadult 16y ago

Are for-profit enterprises in the United States allowed to accept free labor? I know that nonprofit organizations can accept volunteer labor (and do so all the time), but I thought that business corporations and business partnerships that check the law (in the United States, at least) find out that they cannot accept free labor. What are the applicable laws involved here?

zecho 16y ago
Unpaid internships are legal in the United States. I know of a few businesses that build these internships into their model as a way of keeping costs down. The Department of Labor has a smell test for them: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm
- AndyParkinson 16y ago
  The link to the DOL is broken. Any chance you can give the name of the "smell test"?
  - zacharycohn 16y ago
    "The following six criteria must be applied when making this determination: 1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment; 2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern; 3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff; 4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded; 5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and 6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship." Source: [pdf] http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dol.gov%2Fwhd%2Fregs%2Fcompliance%2Fwhdfs71.pdf&ei=Q-SATfeZJ4a-sAOkid2OBg&usg=AFQjCNG_RJ4Ukq4Tn76HTyADk_tYljlrgg http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&v...

imaginator 16y ago

replying on hn since this may interest some other folks too. If you are interested in building something of worth and like the idea of open social networks and producing opensource software, there's always small modules that need building to make buddycloud feature complete. Pick a part of the architecture that looks interesting to you (http://m.buddycloud.com/tmp/proofs/buddycloud%20architecture.png http://m.buddycloud.com/tmp/proofs/buddycloud%20architecture...) and chat to the rest of the team in our chatroom. More dev details on http://open.buddycloud.com http://open.buddycloud.com We also have some cash coming in... not a huge amount but enough to provide some support if you turn out to be good.

acconrad 16y ago

Vladimir, you should find the open source projects that interest you and work on those, or build plugins for them. Why not volunteer for Rails or Sinatra? Or write Emacs plugins/extensions? Write about your experiences with these systems...blogging and contributing to open source will absolutely get you the contacts you are looking for, without having to resort to working in enterprise for free. While I would personally love the free help, I don't think any ethical entrepreneur here on HN would take free work, and we'd all encourage you to at least charge for what you're doing if it's going to be with a for-profit company.

brockf 16y ago

There is really something wrong in the job market when I work two years to get a good hire for my small development company (at a good hourly rate, telecommuting, etc.) and people like Vladimir have to give away their services...

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trustfundbaby 16y ago

Makes sense on paper but its a bad move, trust me, I've been there ... people simply don't appreciate free labor the way they would if they paid something for it. Smarter move is to say "Hey, I bill out at $80/hr but to work at your startup I'll only bill $20/hr for 2 months", then make sure to send an invoice every 2 weeks with the bill at $80/hr with a line item showing the discount ... that way they are reminded of how lucky they are to have you. PS: All this is moot if you aren't actually awesome at coding.

brandnewlow 16y ago
This is a great idea.
- trustfundbaby 16y ago
  glad you think so ... just remember that idea comes from failing often ... being burned numerous times by people who took advantage of my free labor :)
Kilimanjaro 16y ago
This is exactly the advice I was going to give Vlad. Start at a low $10 and work your way up the ladder. If your first contractor is happy with your work (ie. he'll be extremely happy for how cheap you developed a 100 man-hour project for 1k instead of 10k) then he will gladly pay you more for the next gig, or at least refer you to some colleagues. Then charge $20, then $30, and in no time you will have built a rock solid reputation and in a year you will be able to charge whatever you want based on your skills. Never do work for free, ever. That diminishes your value and moral, and as collateral damage the coding market suffers as more and more people start working for peanuts.
- phatbyte 16y ago
  I couldn't have said it better
shortlived 16y ago
But will this work with someone living and working in Russia? It's one thing to work remotely in the US for a US company and it's an entirely different ballgame to do this when you are outside the US. Am I right? EDIT: grammar

eyalfx 16y ago

Vladimir, I'm not sure if what is your visa situation, but getting a work visa in the US is very hard and takes a lot of time and effort. I would start researching it right away and collecting your documents (degrees, awards, letters of reference, etc...). If you just want to come visit, you won't be able to work here with a tourist visa so start looking into it. Good luck.

Luyt 16y ago
Suppose Vladimir has an incorporated business in Russia, comes to the USA with his laptop and does some work for a USA startup from his laptop VPNned to his home base in Russia. The bills are sent from his Russian business address. After a while when his tourist visum expires, he flies back. Would this be viable?
- eyalfx 16y ago
  First, I'm not an immigration lawyer so don't take my advice. However, I've been through a lot before I got my green-card and very familiar with the process. Coming here as a tourist and working (even for a Russian company) is illegal. even if you come here just for a tech conference without working, it's considered a business trip. bottom line, you have to declare you are here on a business trip cause they will check your laptop, go though your emails, find out you are performing some work for a US entity and deny your entrance and take away your visa. Definitely, not something I would recommend.

megamark16 16y ago

Hey Vladimir, what kind of salary range are you looking for when you get hired on full time? Or what hourly rate are you looking for if someone was to work with you for a little while and decide "hey, this guy is awesome, I need to start paying him enough that he'll stick around and keep helping us out"?

lachyg 16y ago

Email coming. I've got a small project I need done, it's basically tweaks to an existing one. More than happy to pay, though.

rorrr 16y ago

Start your own project. Something you love. Come up with an idea. Execute it well. And unless you're rich and don't need money, do not work for free.

colinplamondon 16y ago

Just emailed you. Bootstrapped startup with 2.5m iOS installs, just now expanding to web, and in need of Ruby/Rails/Web Frontend devs :)

adlep 16y ago

I could never accept such an offer. I hope that Vladimir will gets at least a minimum U.S. hourly rate for his efforts. Edit: A minimum US hourly wage is a very decent pay in Russia.

karolist 16y ago
Quick google tells me its $7.25/hour, is that really the case? Sure is decent in most of Russia, depends on the city though.
- adlep 16y ago
  It is indeed the case. You really can't live off it in the US though...
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malandrew 16y ago

Do you have a portfolio or GitHub profile? You mention Backbone.js. Do you hang out on #documentcloud on freenode?

fara 16y ago

Work for full-price or free, never for cheap. Good luck!

apike 16y ago

I got a good job once by offering to trade 5 hours a week of work for desk space to (ostensibly) work on contracting. Within a couple weeks they were paying me full time. This is probably a better approach than offering half time for free.

Kilimanjaro 16y ago

Whomever hires Vlad, please pay the guy at least $10 an hour and gain some respect from the community not to be seen as a greedy bastard abuser. That, and all the life-karma you'll get. Idea HN: Create a page for 'Hackers in need' where people can offer their services for $10/hr until they get out of the trouble zone. Lots of people can benefit from some quick and inexpensive coding while helping a fellow coder.

dhruvbird 16y ago
I like this "hackers in need idea". Though there needs to be a way to keep out the leechers/time wasters. A turing test of sorts or captcha for programmers?? Dunno...
- Kilimanjaro 16y ago
  Votes and reviews will help in keeping the bad apples at the bottom (until they improve their skills).
- natnat 16y ago
  You can require anyone trying to sign up to complete a reasonably difficult programming problem. It could either be sandboxed on the server, like Facebook's engineering puzzles, or require a short output like Project Euler. This would drive away people who can't do FizzBuzz and nontechnical people who want to hire someone to make Facebook for dogs or whatever.

mrchess 16y ago

I'm always wary of free labor, mostly because I did some before so I know what it can feel like. When you work for free, you never feel obligated to deliever or perform at your best because nobody is paying you, so if you get fed up you can just leave -- why put up with the bad environment? Sure it might be fun for a week or two, but people get bored, and it is usually monetary of personal incentives that keep us going. Working for free provides neither of these. It isn't my project, nor am I getting anything in exchange. Now I'm not saying that he will be like this, but this flipside of mentality is definitely something to consider when you hire "free" labor.

abcd_f 16y ago

Cut down 2 months to 2-3 weeks and your offer will pass for a reasonable probation period, albeit free to the hiring company. Alternatively, and this is more in line with what others are saying, - say "free 2-3 weeks of probation period and then pay me for this time if we continue working together." I am just looking at this whole situation from employer's perspective, and the ability to test a developer for few weeks (and not needing to pay if he does not work out) is a really attractive proposition. On the other hand I would not consider dealing with a dev who's ready to work completely for free. Based on my past experience such devs are either seriously underqualified (and through that unreliable and require lots of mentoring and hand-holding) or they would gear down and slack if the project is not truly interesting for them. The money factor serves as a retainer and the conditional payment works as an incentive. Think about it ;)

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bugmenot 16y ago

One gets what one pays for.

RRiccio 16y ago

Just sent you an email Vladimir.

mncolinlee 16y ago

If he really works for free and just got 200 pts on HN, then his time costs too much of mine.

mncolinlee 16y ago
Woah, hey. I wasn't trolling at all. I was suggesting the guy will be WAY too busy for me to ask for anything.

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dhruvbird 16y ago

While I agree that you shouldn't sell yourself short, I think it is also interesting that somone is taking the first step in letting their potential employer validate a potential employee's potential (too much potential there). Also, it lets the employee validate the quality of the work. I think it;s okay if done for a couple weeks (short project/assignment). If the employer likes him, he/she can pay him for the work done - out of goodwill. Everyone wins (only in a perfect world).

SkyMarshal 16y ago

"I can perform task like making your html pass validation tests, writing js widgets, adding ascii art to your nginx conf, writing specs for your code or hopefully implementing new features at your beloved startup." I see what you did there. Testing to see if people are reading it all, are we? :D

pnathan 16y ago

Before I got hired on at my current job, I had planned to find a local charity and build a pro bono site for them. It (1) would give me experience and (2) would help out a charity I favored. I didn't wind up having to do that, but I absolutely think it's not a bad idea. Although of course you do leave yourself open to abuse if you don't have a good line in the sand visible to all.

Cococabasa 16y ago

It's great that there are people here offering up opportunities to do this. There's a Rails one up there, and if you can put that on your resume, it's a plus.

luiscosio 16y ago

Vladimir, if you are interested in working on a startup in México as paid intern. Ping me.

nethsix 16y ago

Hiring someone for free is a two-way risk. If you are working on some prototype, will you reveal the general core idea to him? If you do, he might run away with it. If you don't, he will get bored and run away. I'm not saying that he may be bad but just trying to highlight the two-way issue.

giardini 16y ago

Ahhh, the old "Mark Zuckerberg" ruse! No thanks, dude!

ateacc 16y ago

Vladimir, I won't hire a developer to work for free. But if you can pay me 5$ (I donno what's the unit they talk here per hour, per day or even per week) I'll assign you work. And... you can have all the experience. Your 1st assignment: As my office work is worse than yours like ftping files sending reports etc. you can create some apps for teaching me Ruby, Javascript etc. and then add my details too in you website.