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Facebook Novi: Wallet for Libra Digital Currencies
- milen 6y agoNote that Novi is the rebrand of Calibra [1]. [1] https://about.fb.com/news/2020/05/welcome-to-novi/ https://about.fb.com/news/2020/05/welcome-to-novi/
- scottporad 6y agoAnybody have thoughts on how much traction Libra and Novi get? At first, I was skeptical, but I’m thinking that over 3-5 years that it will catch on.
- _eht 6y agoI was skeptical when I first heard about this. Now, seeing every screenshot showing USD values and nowhere having to worry about conversions, or weird money transfer junk... yeah it’s going to be huge. IMO banks have sat back and let themselves be replaced. Bit of a bummer to have to be rescued from bad banking interfaces by big Fintech.
- elliekelly 6y agoOf all the areas where banking is in need of FinTech rescuing, UI should be absolute least of our worries. And Facebook should be the absolute last company trusted to do the rescuing.
- hckr_news 6y agoMaybe I’m just ignorant about the industry. But there’s plenty of digital money transfer apps in the market, why would this win over others like a zelle, cashapp, venmo, mondo etc? Facebook’s brand will be plastered on Novi/Libra so just name alone might make people slightly distrustful anyway. Although I could see for the sake of convenience regular people accepting centralization for the sake of convenience. Someone tell me otherwise.
- _eht 6y ago>Facebook’s brand will be plastered on Novi/Libra so just name alone might make people slightly distrustful anyway. By that logic, Facebook wouldn't have any users right now, Instagram wouldn't be growing, WhatsApp shouldn't exist... should I go on? Facebooks digital grasp is enormous. That alone is why I think this will be a huge player.
- minimaxir 6y agoGiven that this is an implicit rebranding of Libra since the name was dragged into the mud after sponsors kept dropping out, that should answer your question.
- flixic 6y agoIt's rebranding of Calibra, the website still shows Libra name proudly. Perhaps FB wants to create even more distance between their project Novi and "not" their project Libra.
- np_tedious 6y agoYes, this is exactly the motivation
- nkozyra 6y agoIt's going to be really hard to get people to trust this organization. I think it's going to be an uphill battle, one they could win, but there's room for a more trusted company to swoop in.
- wmf 6y agoHow many users does Facebook have again? How many hours per day?
- nkozyra 6y agoI think a lot of people use it WHILE distrusting it because they think the impact is low and the threat vector limited. When you start talking money I think that changes.
- skohan 6y agoI think the avenue for this to get traction would be for Facebook to sneak it into people's online lives without them really consenting to it. For instance, some type of activity starts giving you Libre as a reward, and you can use it to buy things on the site. Then certain essential things might start coming with a Libre price tag attached. Similar logic to how premium currencies in mobile games work.
- rwmj 6y agoZero traction? It seems to be a Google+ style project championed from the top which serves no purpose that can't already be done by existing products. It faced immense opposition from the US government until they dropped the decentralised aspect, so making it even more pointless. I wonder how many years before it is quietly dropped.
- stimpson_j_cat 6y ago> I wonder how many years before it is quietly dropped The consumer version is already gone
- deltron3030 6y agoShopify was a supporter of their currency, and they most likely are going to integrate it into their ecommerce tech stack, which basically provides the backend for many FB and Insta shops. If it's cheaper/more comfortable to use than other payment methods, users/influencers will use it. And why wouldn't it be more usable considering that they basically own the entire stack, including the attention of users on those platforms? One big hurdle could be the EU though..
- ChainOfFools 6y agothe traction they get will be from the rising tide of digital currency-ism carrying all boats - as well as flotsam such as cryptocurrency - with it.
- mister_hn 6y agoNovi Is a famous brand of Switzerland Chocolate too
- domedefelice 6y agoItalian brand of chocolate, not Swiss ( https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_(azienda) https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_(azienda) )
- mister_hn 6y agooh yes, true
- rrmm 6y agoAnd since it's from facebook, you know you can trust it!
- enitihas 6y ago/s
- rrmm 6y agoA little yeah....
- bootlooped 6y agoIt's a sad state of affairs, but I would honestly trust Facebook more than your average cryptocurrency startup or exchange. That is still not enough trust for me to use their product though.
- mbesto 6y ago> Customers are verified with a government-issued ID to protect their accounts. Learn more about security and privacy on Novi. > Novi Financial, a regulated financial company, is a subsidiary of Facebook, Inc. and is headquartered in Menlo Park, California. That's gonna be a big fat NOPE for me.
- flixic 6y agoKYC is unavoidable for financial products.
- mbesto 6y agoNo shit. That's not the point. The point is that the world's largest privacy abuser can now directly tie all of your online habits to your government issued ID. The implications here are staggering.
- weego 6y agoIf they're regulated in the sense they're suggesting then no they can't
- s3r3nity 6y agoThis isn't a vote of support for FB, but I've said it before and it bears repeating: you are naive if you think you _can't_ do this today. There are companies doing this pretty well (ex: DMP's, or "data management platforms.")
- mbesto 6y agoAgreed, but DMPs aren't perfect, they aren't considered source of truth, and are used largely for targeting for advertising. However in this case there can be serious implications outside of simply advertising and the data integrity issues with DMPs now begins to lessen.
- est31 6y agoTo add to this, with the argument of fighting terrorism, since a while Governments around the world have been requiring phone numbers to be only given to people who identify themselves by their government issued ID. And guess what Facebook etc. are requiring at login. Phone numbers. For security they claim, yet they send spam messages to the number.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- foob4r 6y agoZuck: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard Zuck: Just ask. Zuck: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS [Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuck: People just submitted it. Zuck: I don't know why. Zuck: They "trust me" Zuck: Dumb fucks. https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a19490586/mark-zuckerberg-called-people-who-handed-over-their-data-dumb-f/ https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a19490586/mark-zucker...
- s3r3nity 6y agoYes, because I'm sure you're the exact same person you were in high school / college, and that everything you did 15 years ago will be held as an unwavering standard of who you are as a person. /sarcasm (Nevertheless you might be in hs / college now...but hopefully you understand the point I'm making.)
- strobeflier 6y agoYou seem to be suggesting that Zuck has changed, but I have seen no evidence of that. Have you?
- sdwisely 6y agoI also had the benefit of being able to walk away from my stupid early deceptions instead of them being massively successful. I can't relate to him because I honestly don't know what that does to a person.
- foob4r 6y agoWhy should I give the benefit of the doubt to a billionaire autocrat who had done objectively more global harm than good?
- hckr_news 6y agoOf all the things he’s done, this might be the most human...
- dang 6y agoPlease don't repeat tired tropes here. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=%22dumb%20fucks%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... HN is for curiosity and curiosity wants diffs. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hansdieter1337 6y agoI’m almost certain that no country in the world wants to loose control over their currency. Especially not the US. The only thing that could happen is that they underestimate it and it becomes too big to fight it. Also, FB will probably bribe - eh, I mean - lobby some politicians. It works for Intuit :)
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago> no country in the world wants to loose control over their currency You're free, in America, to settle transactions in whatever currency you please. When it comes to taxes or settling debt, U.S. dollars have primacy. But if you want to sell your house in Euros or Bitcoins or bags of glitter, that's always been permitted.
- ChainOfFools 6y agoIndeed, though ofc the sale price (for public records) as well as assessed value will still be calculated in the local state issued coin.
- I_am_tiberius 6y agoI think it's a misunderstanding that countries lose control. With the introduction of the digital dollar (Libra seems to be only a stable coin == a digital dollar), cash payments will become less popular and at one point governments will abandon cash. With all dollars being digital, governments will be in full control of consumer spending by influencing interest rates that are charged by the Libra system. Without being able to leave the Libra system, you'll be forced to buy goods when interest rates decrease.
- save_ferris 6y ago> governments will be in full control of consumer spending by influencing interest rates that are charged by the Libra system How can governments be in full control if there's a private partner/consortium/whatever that controls the technology? This seems akin to the whole "drive for Uber and be your own boss" argument.
- iso-8859-1 6y ago> Will Novi charge fees? "What you send is what they get. You can add, send, receive, and withdraw money from your wallet without worrying about hidden charges. Novi is cutting fees to help people keep more of their money." What a weird evading answer. "Cutting fees"? That doesn't sound like 0.
- codegladiator 6y agoI guess what that means is the "fee" is cut out from the flow. Meaning it's not there.
- save_ferris 6y agoThen why didn’t they just say “zero fees”? Marketing around financial products is usually pretty clear when the answer is simple. They’re definitely leaving an opening here.
- companyhen 6y agoSounds like they'll take care of the fees like Argent wallet does
- wmf 6y agoDon't all startups have zero fees in the early days? You have to do that to get adoption.
- downrightmike 6y agoI mean, they'll control the supply and be able to make more in a snap, so they don't need "fees" if they can pay themselves without anyone knowing.
- wmf 6y agoAll their documentation says they will never do this.
- RMPR 6y agoMaybe before we rush to adopt <Libra> we should stop to consider the consequences of blithely giving this technology such a central position in our lives.
- biolurker1 6y agoWhat's different than bank apps but better?
- leothecool 6y agoPhysical cash.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y agoRegulation around FIAT currency?
- skohan 6y agoPrivatized currency - I'm sure nothing could go wrong there
- biolurker1 6y agoit's the same as the banks currently. if you don't like it you can use physical cash but having FB app or BoA app is the same.
- mauricedenassau 6y agoFor those who didn't get the reference https://xkcd.com/1215/ https://xkcd.com/1215/
- skohan 6y agoI know you're joking but actually I think Libra is pretty horrifying and we should consider the consiquences
- Panini_Jones 6y ago
- davidpelayo 6y agoDisable Javascript with the DevTools and see that nothing gets properly rendered. Conclude anything you'd like to share in this thread.
- kgraves 6y agoNo non-technical person does this ever.
- stuxnet79 6y agoTrue. I couldn't believe it. I actually disabled NoScript to get it to work but even with the relatively conservative Firefox security settings it still doesn't load.
- x4m3 6y agoi didnt disable javascript and still the website could not be rendered properly. they need to learn how to make websites.
- 52-6F-62 6y agoEven with JS enabled it doesn't render in Firefox 76 for me.
- libeclipse 6y agoDoesn't work for me with JavaScript enabled.
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- DethNinja 6y agoIs there an easy way to convert libra to bitcoin? I don’t have objection to centralised initiatives like Libra so long as people can convert cryptocurrencies easily.
- znpy 6y agobuy bitcoin and pay by libra?
- DethNinja 6y agoI mean using decentralised exchanges to convert libra to bitcoin, do their architecture permit such stuff or is it a totally closed ecosystem? Anyway I can’t say I’m very interested about libra as I’m not a Facebook user but it makes sense for their business area.
- znpy 6y agoWasn't Novi the name of a chocolate brand?
- cschneid 6y agoFrom the FAQ: "In the event of fraud, you will be eligible to receive a full refund" Is that baked into Libra? Some form of reversible transactions? Or is this Facebook offering to take the risk temporarily while it gets traction?
- frogpelt 6y ago"Eligible" but will you receive it?
- joosters 6y agoYes! I've always wished that Facebook could see all of my financial transactions.
- madspindel 6y agoSo how do you add or withdraw money from Novi?
- wmf 6y agoThe same as Venmo, Paypal, CashApp, etc.
- iphone_elegance 6y agoSo if this takes off I'm going to be at a disadvantage because I don't use facebook?
- imhoguy 6y agoWell, you would be worse if you put your money there and then be kicked-out by some AI rule. And ofc vague notification, no refund, no way to appeal, just a /dev/null form to send complaints. I already see these HN headlines: "FB cut me out of my money".
- zip1234 6y agoNovi Michigan now headed further down the search results page
- jfoster 6y agoSounds like PayPal, but owned by Facebook and initially peer to peer payments. I presume it's initially intended as a method of payment for Facebook Marketplace.
- michaelyoshika 6y agoI'm just here watching FB spending billions doing free advertising for Bitcoin.
- Assossa 6y agoIf anyone is wondering why this is a big deal, let me explain. All major payment systems currently (PayPal, Venmo, FB Messenger, etc) are still based on government currencies. Libra is different as it is a cryptocurrency, so no government can easily control it. This might seem fine since everyone likes Bitcoin and such, but those cryptocurrencies are controlled by the community, not by a central organization. Libra is controlled by a group of major corporations and organizations, not by the community. Meaning that if those corporations decide to do something with the currency, no person or government could stop them. That might not sound too bad. They own platform, so they should be able to control it, right? However, you need to consider that if someone controls the economy of a country, they control the government of that country as well. They would be able to control inflation and therefore the boom/bust cycle. If Libra is used by the majority of citizens and businesses in a country, then the group of corporations ruling Libra will be able to manipulate that country's government to do their bidding. I imagine countries with unstable governments will be the first heavy adopters of Libra and those governments are the easiest to manipulate. Libra could spawn the age of global corporatism. Libra may turn out fine and improve the world, but that is only if its administration remains uncorrupted. Take a look through the list of entities that have joint control of Libra. I doubt you would trust most of them to control the world economy. But this is the exact reason that Libra is controlled by a diverse group of organizations, right? I don't believe that's going to have much effect. Facebook and similar corporations already bully smaller businesses and organizations, so what prevents them from bullying or deceiving the smaller organizations in the Libra Association to vote for manipulative changes?
- hnarn 6y agoAny crypto-currency that is not controlled by the community using it is a red flag by definition in my book. It defeats the purpose of a crypto-currency and opens you up to a lot of risk, which is unacceptable for any financial solution.
- downrightmike 6y agoChina has around 65% of the total hashing power, so technically they control it: https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/50274/chinese-bitcoin-miners-control-65-of-the-crypto-networks-processing-power-bitmains-market-share-continues-to-decline https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/50274/chinese-bitcoin-mi...
- mNovak 6y agoFor my understanding, is it possible this could actually be a decent thing for the rest of world? Not ideal, but an improvement? Or is the argument they should just be using <cryptocurrency> ?
- bitxbitxbitcoin 6y agoIt's possible that it's a good thing for certain parts of the world as a non-volatile alternative to the domestic currency. However, with all centralized things - it'll be good up until the moment that it's not. Other commenters have mentioned the moral hazard that could occur if a region finds its economy priced on a corporate group's currency versus a country or country group's currency. I guess now the discussion goes back to would you rather trust <insert name of depostic country with history of ignoring certain rights> or <insert names of multinational corporations with history of ignoring other types of rights>. They should just be using a decentralized cryptocurrency like Bitcoin but there's myriad reasons why they wouldn't want to/be able to.
- lgl 6y agoStill think "Libra" was a badly chosen name. In (at least) spanish and portuguese languages, the word "Libra" is most of the times used to refer to the british pound. So "50 pounds" is actually literally translated to "50 Libras" in those languages. So, if this thing ever takes off, there will be around 700 million people that will be calling it "Facebook Libra" and not just "Libra" in order to make the distinction. Not sure if this was what they intended in the first place, but I don't see why.
- downrightmike 6y agoIf this picks up, them being the smaller markets, they'll probably have to preprend something or just change.
- lgl 6y agoWell, they did pretty much "stole" the word messenger that is now mainly associated with their app so I wouldn't put it past them. I wonder if they ever considered going for "Facebook Dollar". I think we all know that's what they're really going for.
- djstein 6y agowhile this may not be a product I endorse, that marking page and is beautiful. Good job marketing + design + frontend engineers who worked on this!