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Take an example from the python founder. He directly said during a talk that he will not mentor any males, with the implied goal of furthering inclusivity. In
by belorn 6y ago
Take an example from the python founder. He directly said during a talk that he will not mentor any males, with the implied goal of furthering inclusivity.
In my views, refusing to help people because of their gender is maliciously. Making decision about the worthiness of helping a young individual should not be about their gender. Call it a principle.
From reading about the science of discrimination and In-group and out-group thinking, there exist some key finding of human behavior and rationalization. "Us" are individuals and "them" are a homogenic group, and if you treat people like individuals you are automatically treating them as a part of "us". When someone of "us" do something wrong, it is about individual faults and circumstances. When someone of "them" do something wrong, it is a inherent trait of the group and fundamental aspect their kind.
The attack vector can only exist when a set of people are treated as a homogenic group rather than individuals. Inclusivity initiatives should in theory never do this, but defining people as a homogenic group is sadly what most of them end up doing. Maybe it because it easy and quick, or because it makes for good signaling to the in-group. The result is usually the same with the out-group feeling abused and attacked, especially for individuals who been moved from being in-group to out-group and now instinctual feel more vulnerable to attacks.
- kabacha 6y ago> The attack vector can only exist when a set of people are treated as a homogenic group rather than individuals. Inclusivity initiatives should in theory never do this, but defining people as a homogenic group is sadly what most of them end up doing I feel that you've summarized the issue perfectly here with these two sentences. However I feel that it's not exactly problem of diversity/inclusivity but problem of tribalism itself, though I'm not sure how practical it is to separate these two topics here. We can hope that tribalism will go away eventually but if anything modern culture seems to be actually encouraging it instead. This in particular really perplexes me. The world is as global as it has ever been and yet people push and actively create tribes — it's this ugly human primitive nature poking it's head out and there really isn't any cultural push against that. In fact every time I try to point this out I get down-voted. We need more anti-tribalism awareness.
- shadowgovt 6y agoIs Guido choosing to tip the scales really a malicious use of inclusivity? It's not like young men interested in Python have nowhere else to go. I think how Guido wants to spend his time is up to Guido.
- username90 6y ago> It's not like young men interested in Python have nowhere else to go. It tells them that inclusivity is against their interests. Boys growing up where they are explicitly barred from opportunities due to their gender are probably not going to be very willing to accommodate women in the future. Also things like this has shown to not move the needle, so all you accomplish is drive the wedge between genders even further down. > I think how Guido wants to spend his time is up to Guido. And we are allowed to criticize him for it.
- shadowgovt 6y agoThis over-extrapolates though. Guido deciding to mentor women doesn't imply every Pythonista is or should be doing the same. And when the userbase is already mostly men, the existing pipelines are demonstrably working for men; making an effort to pull in women isn't shrinking anyone's pie.
- alexandercrohde 6y agoSo by that reasoning, if Guido said he'd never mentor females that wouldn't be sexist? Because if you think that I bet you're alone...
- shadowgovt 6y agoNot all sexism is a malicious use of inclusivity.
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- lala199 6y ago> Take an example from the python founder. Sad. He had all the fun, was pretty abrasive back in the day while hordes of men built "his" language and submitted to him. Then he did Python 3, weeding out several big names and getting fresh blood. Now Python 3 is done, and suddenly he is inclusive. Some boomers get it all.