5 ms·

I'm a basic/intermediate vim user for about 8 years now and I implore you to stop talking about vim like this. You overcomplicate basic vim and make it sound al

I'm a basic/intermediate vim user for about 8 years now and I implore you to stop talking about vim like this. You overcomplicate basic vim and make it sound all esoteric when it isn't but people who haven't gotten through vimtutor will probably read your comment and just reinforce the belief that vim has a steep learning curve and is probably not worth learning. Also, try vim mode in VSCode before stating that it's not really mature enough and you're better off with vanilla vim. I am certain you haven't and are operating on the mistaken assumption that vim modes are not mature enough

methodin 6y ago
I disagree. Without getting to know the language you end up just memorizing commands which is akin to doing the same thing in school to pass a course but getting nothing out of it in the long run.
- jack_pp 6y ago
  Getting nothing out of it? Any navigation whatsoever using a basic editor is a pain in the ass compared to vim, learning that alone is trivial and would probably make people switch to vim. Add to navigation a few bells and whistles like replacing text inside brackets, dot macros and probably 10 others things that I can't name off the top of my head but are very convenient and "in the long run" you would've saved a whole lot of time and made coding more enjoyable because your edit speed is noticeably improved.
  - 411111111111111 6y ago
    Personally I went from cli vim on servers (sys admin) to vim mode in atom. I loved atoms vim mode - especially the way it handled multiline input. Then I switched to vscode and struggled a little. Copy paste didn't just work, i.e. getting things from the register (yank) into another application and multiline input was not pleasant (esc deselecting instead of exiting input mode etc) Then I switched to intellij (developer now) and installed vim mode. When I noticed how often I had to use the menu because I wanted to use an ide feature I realized that it got more in the way then in helped, so I removed it and went back to just navigating with ^-f and arrow keys. I definitely miss atoms vim mode. But it's not that big of a difference, because the actual input time is usually less then the time thinking about what to implement and how to do it.
    - qayxc 6y ago
      > the actual input time is usually less then the time thinking about what to implement and how to do it. 1000x that! I never understood what people mean by being "more productive" with vim. As a developer I don't edit text - I reason about architectures, algorithms, and data flow. Actual typing is the smallest part of the job and I don't get paid by lines of code anyway...
      - aoloe 6y ago
        My personal answer: I'm touch typing. I can do so without looking at the screen. While I'm typing, I can think of what I want to say next. At least to some degree. Vim helps me to stay focused, to stick to my thoughts instead of having to work with the IDE/editor. I don't have to select a word, by detecting its boundaries (or point to it and double click), delete it and type an new word. ciwnew word^ what looks like random chars is almost a reflex, when you get the Vim "grammar". (of course, you can do it with any editor: ctrl-left, ctrl-shift-right, delete, "new word".) So, yes, you're 100% right: programming is no about typing. And Vim helps me to care even less about typing the code.
      - alpaca128 6y ago
        > I never understood what people mean by being "more productive" with vim. But you understand why people plug a mouse into their laptop instead of using the touchpad, why they use Ctrl-C instead of copying with the mouse, why they autocomplete code in the IDE using keyboard shortcuts instead of clicking through menus and why they sometimes prefer a physical keyboard on their iPad instead of typing with two fingers on a non-tactile screen? Sometimes it's not about being more productive but about turning the stuff you do every day from a chore riddled with tiny annoyances into a more enjoyable, coherent experience. With Vim I don't have to worry about annoying "smart" features, popups with suggestions I never asked for, no need to switch between mouse and keyboard all the time for little things like selecting some text or opening a file, and at the same time it has the most flexible system for custom keyboard shortcuts I have seen to date.
        wayneftw 6y ago
- lqet 6y ago
  Would you say that in the long run, you get nothing out of learning basic algebra in elementary school by memorizing the techniques of addition, subtraction, division and multiplication, because you do not learn anything about group theory? It's a bit pompous to call the vim commands a "language". Basically all you have to know to use vim very powerfully is the difference between insert and navigation mode, how to switch between them, how to move around with hjkl, how to move around in "blocks", that \ opens the search and that y = yank means basically copying. You can learn that in under an hour. Combine that with stuff like "yiw" (yank in word) or "dib" (delete in bracket) and you will get a lot farer than with most other editors. I guarantee you that I do not think about how "dib" means "delete in bracket" when I use it, I have it just memorized.
alpaca128 6y ago
Vim modes are kind of mature, but that's simply not enough imho. Even the best of them (like Evil mode) have enough deviations in behaviour to throw me off regularly. IntelliJ constantly auto-indents and reformats the code I'm currently writing, breaking my focus on it all the time. You might think those are unimportant details, but when someone relies on muscle memory and keyboard-heavy controls it just doesn't always lead to an expected result. Especially once you add configuration files and plugins into the mix. IDEs should just support NeoVim integration for text editing. It removes the need to replicate anything because it's literally just Vim with the unchanged user configuration. I think it would be a win for both users and developers.
JeremyNT 6y ago
> Also, try vim mode in VSCode before stating that it's not really mature enough and you're better off with vanilla vim. I am certain you haven't and are operating on the mistaken assumption that vim modes are not mature enough I gave this a shot actually, and it was 1) slow and 2) missing features I used a lot. The tab/window/buffer behavior was close enough to feel similar but not close enough to be a direct replacement, and that just left me frustrated. For anybody who has really deeply ingrained muscle memory on using vim (beyond the basics of navigating around a file), trying to switch to an IDE with a vim emulation mode is still a pretty big haul. (This isn't to say that the vim-like modes of other editors aren't good/useful for people, it's just to say that for a lifelong vim user they may be lacking in too many ways to justify)
noknownsender 6y ago
I agree with this. I was scared of vim for... years. Then I used it for like a day, and I was already better off than using nano.

methodin 6y ago

I disagree. Without getting to know the language you end up just memorizing commands which is akin to doing the same thing in school to pass a course but getting nothing out of it in the long run.

jack_pp 6y ago
Getting nothing out of it? Any navigation whatsoever using a basic editor is a pain in the ass compared to vim, learning that alone is trivial and would probably make people switch to vim. Add to navigation a few bells and whistles like replacing text inside brackets, dot macros and probably 10 others things that I can't name off the top of my head but are very convenient and "in the long run" you would've saved a whole lot of time and made coding more enjoyable because your edit speed is noticeably improved.
- 411111111111111 6y ago
  Personally I went from cli vim on servers (sys admin) to vim mode in atom. I loved atoms vim mode - especially the way it handled multiline input. Then I switched to vscode and struggled a little. Copy paste didn't just work, i.e. getting things from the register (yank) into another application and multiline input was not pleasant (esc deselecting instead of exiting input mode etc) Then I switched to intellij (developer now) and installed vim mode. When I noticed how often I had to use the menu because I wanted to use an ide feature I realized that it got more in the way then in helped, so I removed it and went back to just navigating with ^-f and arrow keys. I definitely miss atoms vim mode. But it's not that big of a difference, because the actual input time is usually less then the time thinking about what to implement and how to do it.
  - qayxc 6y ago
    > the actual input time is usually less then the time thinking about what to implement and how to do it. 1000x that! I never understood what people mean by being "more productive" with vim. As a developer I don't edit text - I reason about architectures, algorithms, and data flow. Actual typing is the smallest part of the job and I don't get paid by lines of code anyway...
    - aoloe 6y ago
      My personal answer: I'm touch typing. I can do so without looking at the screen. While I'm typing, I can think of what I want to say next. At least to some degree. Vim helps me to stay focused, to stick to my thoughts instead of having to work with the IDE/editor. I don't have to select a word, by detecting its boundaries (or point to it and double click), delete it and type an new word. ciwnew word^ what looks like random chars is almost a reflex, when you get the Vim "grammar". (of course, you can do it with any editor: ctrl-left, ctrl-shift-right, delete, "new word".) So, yes, you're 100% right: programming is no about typing. And Vim helps me to care even less about typing the code.
    - alpaca128 6y ago
      > I never understood what people mean by being "more productive" with vim. But you understand why people plug a mouse into their laptop instead of using the touchpad, why they use Ctrl-C instead of copying with the mouse, why they autocomplete code in the IDE using keyboard shortcuts instead of clicking through menus and why they sometimes prefer a physical keyboard on their iPad instead of typing with two fingers on a non-tactile screen? Sometimes it's not about being more productive but about turning the stuff you do every day from a chore riddled with tiny annoyances into a more enjoyable, coherent experience. With Vim I don't have to worry about annoying "smart" features, popups with suggestions I never asked for, no need to switch between mouse and keyboard all the time for little things like selecting some text or opening a file, and at the same time it has the most flexible system for custom keyboard shortcuts I have seen to date.
      - wayneftw 6y ago
lqet 6y ago
Would you say that in the long run, you get nothing out of learning basic algebra in elementary school by memorizing the techniques of addition, subtraction, division and multiplication, because you do not learn anything about group theory? It's a bit pompous to call the vim commands a "language". Basically all you have to know to use vim very powerfully is the difference between insert and navigation mode, how to switch between them, how to move around with hjkl, how to move around in "blocks", that \ opens the search and that y = yank means basically copying. You can learn that in under an hour. Combine that with stuff like "yiw" (yank in word) or "dib" (delete in bracket) and you will get a lot farer than with most other editors. I guarantee you that I do not think about how "dib" means "delete in bracket" when I use it, I have it just memorized.

alpaca128 6y ago

Vim modes are kind of mature, but that's simply not enough imho. Even the best of them (like Evil mode) have enough deviations in behaviour to throw me off regularly. IntelliJ constantly auto-indents and reformats the code I'm currently writing, breaking my focus on it all the time. You might think those are unimportant details, but when someone relies on muscle memory and keyboard-heavy controls it just doesn't always lead to an expected result. Especially once you add configuration files and plugins into the mix. IDEs should just support NeoVim integration for text editing. It removes the need to replicate anything because it's literally just Vim with the unchanged user configuration. I think it would be a win for both users and developers.

JeremyNT 6y ago

> Also, try vim mode in VSCode before stating that it's not really mature enough and you're better off with vanilla vim. I am certain you haven't and are operating on the mistaken assumption that vim modes are not mature enough I gave this a shot actually, and it was 1) slow and 2) missing features I used a lot. The tab/window/buffer behavior was close enough to feel similar but not close enough to be a direct replacement, and that just left me frustrated. For anybody who has really deeply ingrained muscle memory on using vim (beyond the basics of navigating around a file), trying to switch to an IDE with a vim emulation mode is still a pretty big haul. (This isn't to say that the vim-like modes of other editors aren't good/useful for people, it's just to say that for a lifelong vim user they may be lacking in too many ways to justify)

noknownsender 6y ago

I agree with this. I was scared of vim for... years. Then I used it for like a day, and I was already better off than using nano.