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> This e-mail (which I also got) seems like a heartfelt apology. Even if it is heartfelt, I'd argue that if no alarm bells went off internally when they were d

> This e-mail (which I also got) seems like a heartfelt apology. Even if it is heartfelt, I'd argue that if no alarm bells went off internally when they were discussing this feature, they are not the group of people to entrust with information such as this.

ravenstine 6y ago
They're undoubtedly going to have to do more to make things right in the future for those who have been following this issue, but it's at least refreshing to read what seems like a genuine apology. If we can take away anything from this, it's that Triplebyte actually understand why people were upset over this. I've read lots of apology emails where those in charge clearly either didn't understand the problem or they were dismissive towards their consumers.
- bigiain 6y ago
  > If we can take away anything from this, it's that Triplebyte actually ... ... have a decent crisis management or PR firm on retainer. Which might be as much of a red flag as the initial fuckup...
  - xpe 6y ago
    > have a decent crisis management or PR firm on retainer. On what basis do you say they have a firm on retainer? I think many/most CEO's in this situation would make some calls to get advice on how to manage the situation -- I don't that is a red flag. If they don't take strong, concrete steps to mitigate these kinds of problems in the future, I will have less confidence and trust in their company.
- ammon 6y ago
  We want to do something more concrete to guarantee user privacy going forward. A technical solution would be best. But short of that just a really strong, transparent commitment (that makes it easy to hold our feet to the fire if we screw it up again). But I could not get this together before the email today. I'm expecting to announce something in the next few weeks. I agree with people here when they say that actions are what really matter. I screwed up enough that I don't certainly don't think an apology alone makes it better.
  - antonvs 6y ago
    > A technical solution would be best. This is another error in your thinking. You can't solve failures in human understanding with technical solutions. Your first instinct is going to be too try to cite counterexamples - but that only proves the point. You're in a business that deals with people. You can't eliminate that with technology, and the fact that you think you can try is what makes you dangerous.
paulcole 6y ago
There was a study about surgical fuckups. In almost every case, multiple people in the OR admitted they recognized the problem but were too scared to speak up because the surgeon said things were going fine.
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  Do you have a link to the study? I certainly believe it. Projecting my own anecdotal bias, most surgeons I've met have been a special kind of arrogant.
  - ddrt 6y ago
    That last part is called the God Complex. Many surgeons have it.
  - arawde 6y ago
    I can't find the specific study, but it is part of the third part of the book The Power of Habit.
  - vezycash 6y ago
    Same happened for pilots https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140217220032-266437464-asiana-airlines-sorry-captain-you-re-wrong https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140217220032-266437464-asia...
  - avip 6y ago
    The pilots' case is subject of entire chapter in the book outliers. Book is... of oscillating quality.
  - paulcole 6y ago
    I actually just made it up to farm karma. There’s a guy who will buy accounts if you get up to like 2500 karma. I see you’re getting close and if you’re willing to give me a cut I can hook you up w/ his info. Great dude.
- greenyoda 6y ago
  The same issue was found to be the cause of plane crashes: the crew knew that something was going wrong, but did not feel that they could contradict the captain (or the captain just wouldn't listen). This gave rise to the practice called Crew Resource Management (CRM): > Crew resource management formally began with a National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) recommendation made during their investigation of the 1978 United Airlines Flight 173 crash. The issues surrounding that crash included a DC-8 crew running out of fuel over Portland, Oregon while troubleshooting a landing gear problem. > The term "cockpit resource management" (later generalized to "crew resource management") was coined in 1979 by NASA psychologist John Lauber who had studied communication processes in cockpits for several years. While retaining a command hierarchy, the concept was intended to foster a less authoritarian cockpit culture, where co-pilots were encouraged to question captains if they observed them making mistakes. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management
JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
I'm surprised they didn't consider beta testing the feature with a subset of users to see how it'd go first.
- mattm 6y ago
  According to one of the CEO's replies in the other comment thread, one of the drivers to push forward was that they need to meet their sprint goal. I don't have any inside information but it seems that this could also be a case of the downsides of deadlines. They set a deadline and then all other considerations go out the window when trying to meet that.
  - rammy1234 6y ago
    Whoa! Deadline was a reason to push a feature which is big and privacy violating one. Can a bank say due to deadlines we made passwords not encrypted ? The feature which is your core cannot be part of deadlines. If they really intent of user protection, they would have de-scoped it to next sprint.
  - ibejoeb 6y ago
    Lol. Gotta have priorities. That's some serious b school negative work.
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    For anyone who thinks this is too ridiculous to be true, here is the CEO confirming this was rushed out to meet a fake-Agile fake deadline, without regard for how it might affect users or developers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280137
  - at_a_remove 6y ago
    I am trying to evaluate this as fairly as I can. "Sprint" is one of those words that just ... sets me off. I have to remind myself to be rational and measured in my response. Having said that, "sprint" is not a word I associate with thoughtful progress toward a reasonable goal. What it does say is "rush forward in a heedless manner" and "don't think, just run." Another artificial deadline dressed up with terminology that encourages plunging ahead without due consideration.
andrewljohnson 6y ago
Both a cynical and wrongheaded answer.
enriquto 6y ago
> if no alarm bells went off internally when they were discussing this feature, they are not the group of people to entrust with information such as this. On the other hand, once shit hit the fan, you could argue that these people would be extra-careful about fucking it up again, as opposed to another company where everything seems silently OK. It's a bit like the story of the engineer who did a 400.000 dollar mistake on his first job. Asking the manager if they were going to fire him, he was told that no way they were going to fire somebody that just cost them so much money to train!
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  I also read a story on HN where a devops engineer made a $80k mistake and got fired. He got hired at a new startup and the founder thought "of course he won't make the same mistake twice". He did.
  - gavinray 6y ago
    Anyyyy chance you happen to have that link handy? Terrible misfortune but sounds like a good read.
    - travisjungroth 6y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22719573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22719573
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    At least we can be sure lightning won't strike thrice!
    - bobrobinson960 6y ago
      I wouldn't count my blessings!
- smt88 6y ago
  > On the other hand, once shit hit the fan, you could argue that these people would be extra-careful about fucking it up again In my experience with Facebook, Google, and a variety of smaller companies, this doesn't happen. To people who think the way TripleByte apparently does, the fuck-up was getting caught, not violating trust in the first place. If they had no moral issues with betraying users, they won't have any in the future (unless executives and board are replaced). Instead, they will pay more lip service to privacy concerns and be more secretive about violating user trust.
glenstein 6y ago
>Even if it is heartfelt, I'd argue that if no alarm bells went off internally when they were discussing this feature, they are not the group of people to entrust with information such as this. On one level I agree with this, in that I don't think 'heartfelt' is a fair metric. It's subjective, it's a ritual, and on some level the demand for performative contrition feels to me like something that doesn't have well defined parameters and past a certain point doesn't serve a purpose. What is important to me are the statements that acknowledge error and recognize what made it a bad thing to do. Those seem on-point to me and, insofar as apologies go, I'm not sure what else should have to be said.
- bigiain 6y ago
  Both the heartfelt-ness and the acknowledgement of error are things that talented writers at crisis management agencies oe OR firms or even internal comms teams can ghostwrite for anyone. All they tell us is that someone (not necessarily the person who fucked up) recognises what the right things to say publiclly right now are. Apart from Ammon's ability to accept words assigning blame to himself, we can not really read anything more into those words. Lets wait and see what he, and the entire team who didn't stop this before they launched the idea to significant negative outcry, actually do in the future.
afterburner 6y ago
It's like they don't even internet.
akerl_ 6y ago
Given the prevalence of comments like this, I wonder why any company would ever bother offering an apology or retraction. As soon as a company does something that a chunk of people on the internet don’t agree with, there’s really no way out. They’re going to get bad press regardless of whether they retract, whether they apologize, and whether they say they’re taking actions to avoid the sequence that led to the action in question. But alongside that, for every time the internet mob has risen up over a company’s action, very few companies seem to have experienced major long term effects. I bet everybody knows a few people who have quit Facebook/GitHub, or who rage about Oracle business practices or MongoDB stability, but these companies still manage to keep trucking along. In light of this, I’m mostly surprised that Triplebyte bothered apologizing; it seems unlikely to do them any good, and it’s unclear to me whether continuing course would have actually done as much harm to their bottom line as the prior Hackernews thread appeared to indicate.
- aaomidi 6y ago
  I mean I deleted my account. They probably realized they're getting a ton of account deletions and went back on it.
  - rammy1234 6y ago
    Probably which is mentioned in the email. “ Last Friday I lost a big chunk of that trust. ” which translates to account deletion
    - ak-47 6y ago
      I also deleted my account and encouraged others to do so. I'd love to see their account metrics and to know whether the reason for the decision reversal was primarily driven by individual email responses, HN/reddit outrage, or mass account deletion.
    - bigiain 6y ago
      > Probably which is _weasel-worded_ in the email. “ Last Friday I lost a big chunk of that trust. ” which translates to account deletion FTFY...
bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago
This is more sensible than people in this thread seem to think. The company emitted a signal about how they reach decisions — you can debate the strength of it but it makes sense to update one's priors accordingly. Hey, path dependence is a bitch.
ibejoeb 6y ago
He dropped it on the Friday before the biggest holiday weekend of the year. He knows what he's doing. He's done it before, and he's still doing it. Just pulling power moves. Move fast and fuck shit up. The dude has personally tried to pull fast ones on me. This is a fucked company since day one. I brushed it off, but when you keep up these patterns for years...jog on.
- clockworksoul 6y ago
  >The dude has personally tried to pull fast ones on me. Can you clarify?
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  > biggest holiday weekend of the year. What holiday was that? I wasn't aware of any. In any case, I'd say Christmas is probably the biggest holiday, although it doesn't always fall on a weekend.
  - tass 6y ago
    In the USA it’s a long weekend with nice weather. (Nicer than typical Christmas winter, anyway)
  - ikeyany 6y ago
    The holiday weekends in the United States are MLK Day, Presidents' Day, Memorial Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day, and Veteran's Day. This past weekend was Memorial Day for those in the United States.
grawprog 6y ago
People do make mistakes. Sometimes people really do just fuck up. We're only human. All of us. Whether you're a CEO or just a worker. Whether it's even heartfelt or not, it's nice to see someone without any bullshit or wishy washy words, just straight up say, sorry everyone, i really fucked up. Personally, i appreciate the honesty from people, whether they mean it or not, it still takes some bit of honour and humbleness to openly admit your mistake. It's not an easy thing to do and i can appreciate the effort it takes to come out and just straight up say 'yeah i'm an idiot and i fucked up pretty bad.' Plus, the way i look at it, you always have to remember, no matter how badly you fuck up, you're not that dude that fucked up the space station and caused a slow oxygen leak that had to be repaired with a risky space walk and even he was forgiven...probably. ETA: Just to add to this as i've thought of it. Years ago, somebody i knew stole a few hundred dollars from me and disappeared. I thought i'd never hear from him again. A couple years later i got a random phonecall from him. He didn't have my money or anything, but he had the guts to call me and apologize and admit he'd just straight up ripped me off. I've never heard from him since and i'd never trust him again, but i respect the nerve it took for him to do that.
- bigiain 6y ago
  How many times have we heard Zuckerberg say "I'm sorry, we let down our users" in a eloquent and humble and seemingly heartfelt way, only to find they were right then in the middle of an even more brazen abuse of their users? Do you suppose Ammon truely realises this plan was a totally unacceptable betrayal of his users, or that he admires and aspires to be Zuckerberg still?
  - grawprog 6y ago
    I haven't heard Ammon call his users a bunch of dumb shits and repeatedly do shady things and i've never heard him directly apologize without somehow not only insulting users but saying a bunch of hypocritical shit and contradicting himself. No I doubt he truly realizes it. There's no way he can empathize or truly understand the needs and worries of people using his service. But, like I say, I respect and appreciate upfront admission of wrong doing. I don't think anyone should trust them. Tryplebyte fucked up, anyone believing this shit wasn't intentional and planned to derive revenue from users during an obvious downtime is naive. The mistake was not realizing this was a horrible idea and continuing to such a ridiculous thing. They should be abandoned. But I respect the admission of the fuck upery.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

ravenstine 6y ago

They're undoubtedly going to have to do more to make things right in the future for those who have been following this issue, but it's at least refreshing to read what seems like a genuine apology. If we can take away anything from this, it's that Triplebyte actually understand why people were upset over this. I've read lots of apology emails where those in charge clearly either didn't understand the problem or they were dismissive towards their consumers.

bigiain 6y ago
> If we can take away anything from this, it's that Triplebyte actually ... ... have a decent crisis management or PR firm on retainer. Which might be as much of a red flag as the initial fuckup...
- xpe 6y ago
  > have a decent crisis management or PR firm on retainer. On what basis do you say they have a firm on retainer? I think many/most CEO's in this situation would make some calls to get advice on how to manage the situation -- I don't that is a red flag. If they don't take strong, concrete steps to mitigate these kinds of problems in the future, I will have less confidence and trust in their company.
ammon 6y ago
We want to do something more concrete to guarantee user privacy going forward. A technical solution would be best. But short of that just a really strong, transparent commitment (that makes it easy to hold our feet to the fire if we screw it up again). But I could not get this together before the email today. I'm expecting to announce something in the next few weeks. I agree with people here when they say that actions are what really matter. I screwed up enough that I don't certainly don't think an apology alone makes it better.
- antonvs 6y ago
  > A technical solution would be best. This is another error in your thinking. You can't solve failures in human understanding with technical solutions. Your first instinct is going to be too try to cite counterexamples - but that only proves the point. You're in a business that deals with people. You can't eliminate that with technology, and the fact that you think you can try is what makes you dangerous.

paulcole 6y ago

There was a study about surgical fuckups. In almost every case, multiple people in the OR admitted they recognized the problem but were too scared to speak up because the surgeon said things were going fine.

Judgmentality 6y ago
Do you have a link to the study? I certainly believe it. Projecting my own anecdotal bias, most surgeons I've met have been a special kind of arrogant.
- ddrt 6y ago
  That last part is called the God Complex. Many surgeons have it.
- arawde 6y ago
  I can't find the specific study, but it is part of the third part of the book The Power of Habit.
- vezycash 6y ago
  Same happened for pilots https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140217220032-266437464-asiana-airlines-sorry-captain-you-re-wrong https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140217220032-266437464-asia...
- avip 6y ago
  The pilots' case is subject of entire chapter in the book outliers. Book is... of oscillating quality.
- paulcole 6y ago
  I actually just made it up to farm karma. There’s a guy who will buy accounts if you get up to like 2500 karma. I see you’re getting close and if you’re willing to give me a cut I can hook you up w/ his info. Great dude.
greenyoda 6y ago
The same issue was found to be the cause of plane crashes: the crew knew that something was going wrong, but did not feel that they could contradict the captain (or the captain just wouldn't listen). This gave rise to the practice called Crew Resource Management (CRM): > Crew resource management formally began with a National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) recommendation made during their investigation of the 1978 United Airlines Flight 173 crash. The issues surrounding that crash included a DC-8 crew running out of fuel over Portland, Oregon while troubleshooting a landing gear problem. > The term "cockpit resource management" (later generalized to "crew resource management") was coined in 1979 by NASA psychologist John Lauber who had studied communication processes in cockpits for several years. While retaining a command hierarchy, the concept was intended to foster a less authoritarian cockpit culture, where co-pilots were encouraged to question captains if they observed them making mistakes. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management

JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago

I'm surprised they didn't consider beta testing the feature with a subset of users to see how it'd go first.

mattm 6y ago
According to one of the CEO's replies in the other comment thread, one of the drivers to push forward was that they need to meet their sprint goal. I don't have any inside information but it seems that this could also be a case of the downsides of deadlines. They set a deadline and then all other considerations go out the window when trying to meet that.
- rammy1234 6y ago
  Whoa! Deadline was a reason to push a feature which is big and privacy violating one. Can a bank say due to deadlines we made passwords not encrypted ? The feature which is your core cannot be part of deadlines. If they really intent of user protection, they would have de-scoped it to next sprint.
- ibejoeb 6y ago
  Lol. Gotta have priorities. That's some serious b school negative work.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  For anyone who thinks this is too ridiculous to be true, here is the CEO confirming this was rushed out to meet a fake-Agile fake deadline, without regard for how it might affect users or developers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280137
- at_a_remove 6y ago
  I am trying to evaluate this as fairly as I can. "Sprint" is one of those words that just ... sets me off. I have to remind myself to be rational and measured in my response. Having said that, "sprint" is not a word I associate with thoughtful progress toward a reasonable goal. What it does say is "rush forward in a heedless manner" and "don't think, just run." Another artificial deadline dressed up with terminology that encourages plunging ahead without due consideration.

andrewljohnson 6y ago

Both a cynical and wrongheaded answer.

enriquto 6y ago

> if no alarm bells went off internally when they were discussing this feature, they are not the group of people to entrust with information such as this. On the other hand, once shit hit the fan, you could argue that these people would be extra-careful about fucking it up again, as opposed to another company where everything seems silently OK. It's a bit like the story of the engineer who did a 400.000 dollar mistake on his first job. Asking the manager if they were going to fire him, he was told that no way they were going to fire somebody that just cost them so much money to train!

travisjungroth 6y ago
I also read a story on HN where a devops engineer made a $80k mistake and got fired. He got hired at a new startup and the founder thought "of course he won't make the same mistake twice". He did.
- gavinray 6y ago
  Anyyyy chance you happen to have that link handy? Terrible misfortune but sounds like a good read.
  - travisjungroth 6y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22719573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22719573
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  At least we can be sure lightning won't strike thrice!
  - bobrobinson960 6y ago
    I wouldn't count my blessings!
smt88 6y ago
> On the other hand, once shit hit the fan, you could argue that these people would be extra-careful about fucking it up again In my experience with Facebook, Google, and a variety of smaller companies, this doesn't happen. To people who think the way TripleByte apparently does, the fuck-up was getting caught, not violating trust in the first place. If they had no moral issues with betraying users, they won't have any in the future (unless executives and board are replaced). Instead, they will pay more lip service to privacy concerns and be more secretive about violating user trust.

glenstein 6y ago

>Even if it is heartfelt, I'd argue that if no alarm bells went off internally when they were discussing this feature, they are not the group of people to entrust with information such as this. On one level I agree with this, in that I don't think 'heartfelt' is a fair metric. It's subjective, it's a ritual, and on some level the demand for performative contrition feels to me like something that doesn't have well defined parameters and past a certain point doesn't serve a purpose. What is important to me are the statements that acknowledge error and recognize what made it a bad thing to do. Those seem on-point to me and, insofar as apologies go, I'm not sure what else should have to be said.

bigiain 6y ago
Both the heartfelt-ness and the acknowledgement of error are things that talented writers at crisis management agencies oe OR firms or even internal comms teams can ghostwrite for anyone. All they tell us is that someone (not necessarily the person who fucked up) recognises what the right things to say publiclly right now are. Apart from Ammon's ability to accept words assigning blame to himself, we can not really read anything more into those words. Lets wait and see what he, and the entire team who didn't stop this before they launched the idea to significant negative outcry, actually do in the future.

afterburner 6y ago

It's like they don't even internet.

akerl_ 6y ago

Given the prevalence of comments like this, I wonder why any company would ever bother offering an apology or retraction. As soon as a company does something that a chunk of people on the internet don’t agree with, there’s really no way out. They’re going to get bad press regardless of whether they retract, whether they apologize, and whether they say they’re taking actions to avoid the sequence that led to the action in question. But alongside that, for every time the internet mob has risen up over a company’s action, very few companies seem to have experienced major long term effects. I bet everybody knows a few people who have quit Facebook/GitHub, or who rage about Oracle business practices or MongoDB stability, but these companies still manage to keep trucking along. In light of this, I’m mostly surprised that Triplebyte bothered apologizing; it seems unlikely to do them any good, and it’s unclear to me whether continuing course would have actually done as much harm to their bottom line as the prior Hackernews thread appeared to indicate.

aaomidi 6y ago
I mean I deleted my account. They probably realized they're getting a ton of account deletions and went back on it.
- rammy1234 6y ago
  Probably which is mentioned in the email. “ Last Friday I lost a big chunk of that trust. ” which translates to account deletion
  - ak-47 6y ago
    I also deleted my account and encouraged others to do so. I'd love to see their account metrics and to know whether the reason for the decision reversal was primarily driven by individual email responses, HN/reddit outrage, or mass account deletion.
  - bigiain 6y ago
    > Probably which is _weasel-worded_ in the email. “ Last Friday I lost a big chunk of that trust. ” which translates to account deletion FTFY...

bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago

This is more sensible than people in this thread seem to think. The company emitted a signal about how they reach decisions — you can debate the strength of it but it makes sense to update one's priors accordingly. Hey, path dependence is a bitch.

ibejoeb 6y ago

He dropped it on the Friday before the biggest holiday weekend of the year. He knows what he's doing. He's done it before, and he's still doing it. Just pulling power moves. Move fast and fuck shit up. The dude has personally tried to pull fast ones on me. This is a fucked company since day one. I brushed it off, but when you keep up these patterns for years...jog on.

clockworksoul 6y ago
>The dude has personally tried to pull fast ones on me. Can you clarify?
frosted-flakes 6y ago
> biggest holiday weekend of the year. What holiday was that? I wasn't aware of any. In any case, I'd say Christmas is probably the biggest holiday, although it doesn't always fall on a weekend.
- tass 6y ago
  In the USA it’s a long weekend with nice weather. (Nicer than typical Christmas winter, anyway)
- ikeyany 6y ago
  The holiday weekends in the United States are MLK Day, Presidents' Day, Memorial Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day, and Veteran's Day. This past weekend was Memorial Day for those in the United States.

grawprog 6y ago

People do make mistakes. Sometimes people really do just fuck up. We're only human. All of us. Whether you're a CEO or just a worker. Whether it's even heartfelt or not, it's nice to see someone without any bullshit or wishy washy words, just straight up say, sorry everyone, i really fucked up. Personally, i appreciate the honesty from people, whether they mean it or not, it still takes some bit of honour and humbleness to openly admit your mistake. It's not an easy thing to do and i can appreciate the effort it takes to come out and just straight up say 'yeah i'm an idiot and i fucked up pretty bad.' Plus, the way i look at it, you always have to remember, no matter how badly you fuck up, you're not that dude that fucked up the space station and caused a slow oxygen leak that had to be repaired with a risky space walk and even he was forgiven...probably. ETA: Just to add to this as i've thought of it. Years ago, somebody i knew stole a few hundred dollars from me and disappeared. I thought i'd never hear from him again. A couple years later i got a random phonecall from him. He didn't have my money or anything, but he had the guts to call me and apologize and admit he'd just straight up ripped me off. I've never heard from him since and i'd never trust him again, but i respect the nerve it took for him to do that.

bigiain 6y ago
How many times have we heard Zuckerberg say "I'm sorry, we let down our users" in a eloquent and humble and seemingly heartfelt way, only to find they were right then in the middle of an even more brazen abuse of their users? Do you suppose Ammon truely realises this plan was a totally unacceptable betrayal of his users, or that he admires and aspires to be Zuckerberg still?
- grawprog 6y ago
  I haven't heard Ammon call his users a bunch of dumb shits and repeatedly do shady things and i've never heard him directly apologize without somehow not only insulting users but saying a bunch of hypocritical shit and contradicting himself. No I doubt he truly realizes it. There's no way he can empathize or truly understand the needs and worries of people using his service. But, like I say, I respect and appreciate upfront admission of wrong doing. I don't think anyone should trust them. Tryplebyte fucked up, anyone believing this shit wasn't intentional and planned to derive revenue from users during an obvious downtime is naive. The mistake was not realizing this was a horrible idea and continuing to such a ridiculous thing. They should be abandoned. But I respect the admission of the fuck upery.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]