4 ms·

I'm a "leftist" and I consider Rogan progressive, just like anyone else who chooses to vote for Bernie Sanders.

KirinDave 6y ago
Certainly in relative terms Bernie Sanders would represent some aspects of progressive politics. However it's very important to know how regressive American politics are. While the loss of life is extremely unfortunate, the timely object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure is on full display globally right now. Despite being one of the wealthiest nations in the world we also can't deal with aglobal pandemic because we simply lack the infrastructure for Public Health and we've spent 20 years arguing about whether we should have it. Bernie Sanders's policies are slightly right of Macron, and he's pretty much the poster child for neoliberal centrism globally. He wants the same thing many other similar capitalist Nations have, which is essentially using tax dollars to ensure business prosperity by offsetting high-risk costs like healthcare.
- harryh 6y ago
  the timely object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure is on full display globally right now The US is currently expected to have fewer per capita deaths from COVID19 than the UK, France, Spain, Italy & Sweden. See: https://covid19.healthdata.org/ https://covid19.healthdata.org/
  - raydev 6y ago
    Looks like May 14 and later are still projections. It's now May 25. Given the spikes we've seen since states have started reopening, I'd want to see more up-to-date stats.
    - harryh 6y ago
      I certainly agree that predictions are hard. And things could go in another direction. I'm just saying that the progress of the disease to date has not been an "object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure."
      - KirinDave 6y ago
        It's outrageous, bordering on disingenuous, to compare anyone to Italy and Sweden and go, "See? Your health care infrastructure isn't so bad." Sweden deliberately elected not to use their infrastructure. Italy was the first critical European outbreak and their difficulties were information most other nations had. Why not look at South Korea or Mongolia? You know, actual success stories.
        rayiner 6y ago
        You're mixing up two very different things. When you talk about Sanders and "health care infrastructure" people naturally assume you're talking about hospitals, insurance coverage, etc. That naturally raises the response of "well, Italy has socialized medicine, like Sanders wants, and that hasn't really helped it." South Korea's success does not have anything to do with left versus right--which is the topic at hand--or even really health care infrastructure. South Korea has experience dealing with respiratory virus outbreaks from China. It also has a population that is able to follow instructions and defer to authority, unlike people in western countries. Comparisons of the US to South Korea or Japan are "outrageous, bordering on disingenuous." In terms of social organization and ability to get things done, comparing New York City to Italy is actually very generous.
        KirinDave 6y ago
        > You're mixing up two very different things. When you talk about Sanders and "health care infrastructure" people naturally assume you're talking about hospitals, insurance coverage, etc. That naturally raises the response of "well, Italy has socialized medicine, like Sanders wants, and that hasn't really helped it." Quite the opposite. You're the one doing that. I didn't name specific mechanisms and instead said "infrastructure" precisely to avoid this conversation. It doesn't matter how it's implemented; what matters is that effective medical care and clear information can reach citizens in times of crisis. All the examples folks have named have clearly shown a total failure to do this. So despite how many great resources they may have amassed, they could not mobilize that into an effective civic infrastructure. You're the one who wants to argue about socialized medicine. From the look of it, that's because you want to gloss over the profound failure of the US to do anything resembling a credible disaster response or address the profound inequalities that exist in American health care. > South Korea's success does not have anything to do with left versus right I agree! > which is the topic at hand No, the topic is, "Is Rogan a reactionary?" The answer there is yes, and even recently he's been sympathetic to the ludicrous claims that doing nothing is a reasonable strategy during this pandemic. The man is a conspiracy theorist. He has been in the past and he'll continue to be so in the future because he's a reactionary and that's how they operate. > South Korea has experience dealing with respiratory virus outbreaks from China. It also has a population that is able to follow instructions and defer to authority, unlike people in western countries. South Korea had to enact an emergency law letting cities detain people for violating stay at home and mask orders because compliance was bad. I don't know why you think these pacific asian counties are "obedient" but that's... Not a good characterization. I will follow the site guidelines and assume you have an unconscious bias there as opposed to an active one. > Comparisons of the US to South Korea or Japan are "outrageous, bordering on disingenuous." In terms of social organization and ability to get things done, comparing New York City to Italy is actually very generous. New York was a worse individual outbreak than any Italian city from the last numbers I saw, so doesn't this invalidate harryh's comparison?
  - JSavageOne 6y ago
    NYC has been hit the hardest in the world, there weren't enough masks and ventilators, and testing wasn't available except to those in the most dire conditions (despite what the politicians claimed). Also I don't think it's a fair comparison to compare the entire countries given the enormous size differences, the drastically lower population density of the U.S. (outside NYC), and again the lack of testing which is definitely drastically underestimating the real amount. Also the bigger problem in the U.S. is that tens of millions are uninsured and/or have health plans tied to jobs that they lost, have no sick leave, and are criminally overcharged for basic health services leading to medical disaster being the #1 cause of bankruptcy. This kind of precarity and suffering isn't captured in coronavirus case statistics.
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    We'll need to wait and see for data on UK and France. Those countries certainly botched up their handling similarly (although not quite as long as we have). Comparing us to Sweden (which has essentially elected to do nothing at all except politely suggest large gathering should be cancelled and decline to enforce that suggestion) or Italy (the first European pandemic outbreak site, with a large population of older people who cohabitate with younger families, and extremely dense outbreak zones)seems like a low enough bar to be called "failure" given the economic resources the US has at its disposal.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Lots of countries can't deal with the pandemic, including ones that were universally agreed before 2020 to have great health systems.
- rayiner 6y ago
  Bernie is significantly to the left of Macron. Macron is a pro-business former investment banker who has campaigned on reforming labor unions in France, privatizing entities like SNCF, and deregulation generally. Macron is also an excellent example of why the notion that American politics is significantly more conservative Thani n Europe is overstated. In the first round, Macron won 24% of the vote. Fillion (center-right), Dupont-Aignan (Gaullist), and Le Pen (far-right) together had 45% of the vote. That is, nearly half the French electorate was to the right of Macron. The same is true in the UK, Ireland, Germany, and the Netherlands. All are headed by staunch neo-liberals, and have been for some time. Boris Johnson just blew out his socialist challenger; Merkel's hand-picked successor is now a leader of one of Germany's right-wing parties. Sanders' brand of liberalism is antediluvian. The "social-democratic" countries he admires have moved to a model better described as "welfare capitalism." See: https://www.acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2019/01/17/denmark-american-leftists-were-not-socialist https://www.acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2019/01/17/.... The conservative Heritage Foundation consistently ranks Denmark in the top 10 when it comes to economic freedom. While Sanders rails against corporations and calls for sweeping regulations, Denmark, Sweden, etc., have lowered corporate taxes to below U.S. levels and dramatically deregulated their economies. Over the past two decades, while Sanders stood still, almost the whole of Europe became more like America: they privatized state-owned industries, pursued aggressive deregulation, and increased individual choice. For example, while Sanders opposes charter schools, Sweden and Denmark have school vouchers for private schools, just like American Republicans want to do. As to COVID-19: it has been an eye-opening illustration of how socialized medicine doesn't help a whit when it comes time to dealing with a global pandemic. COVID-19 deaths per day per million peaked in the U.S. at half of what it did in Spain, Italy, and the UK: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-per-million-7-day-average https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-per-mi....
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    Look, this shouldn't be seen either as for or against socialized medicine. Sweden has that, but their political infighting rendered their infrastructure moot, and they're now the single worst offender. It has to do with if the systems in place are accessible and capable of responding in times of crisis. South Korea and Mongolia have very different looking political structures and medical infrastructure, but their ability to effectively provide and enable their infrastructure to those who need it sets them leagues apart from the US and Sweden.
Pfhreak 6y ago
I am too, you'll find me at the local Socialist meetups, but there's no way I'd consider Rogan progressive.
- JSavageOne 6y ago
  I mean it's all relative I guess. Bernie Sanders was by far the most progressive U.S. presidential candidate in this election, so that would put Rogan's "progressiveness" in the country's minority. Anyways I think this is a stupid argument. My point wasn't to debate his progressiveness, just to point out how absurd it is to call a Bernie Sanders supporter "conservative".
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    Who's Rogan voting for now, remind me? The truth is that Sanders cut across a different axis than a lot of Democrats.

Certainly in relative terms Bernie Sanders would represent some aspects of progressive politics. However it's very important to know how regressive American politics are. While the loss of life is extremely unfortunate, the timely object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure is on full display globally right now. Despite being one of the wealthiest nations in the world we also can't deal with aglobal pandemic because we simply lack the infrastructure for Public Health and we've spent 20 years arguing about whether we should have it. Bernie Sanders's policies are slightly right of Macron, and he's pretty much the poster child for neoliberal centrism globally. He wants the same thing many other similar capitalist Nations have, which is essentially using tax dollars to ensure business prosperity by offsetting high-risk costs like healthcare.

harryh 6y ago
the timely object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure is on full display globally right now The US is currently expected to have fewer per capita deaths from COVID19 than the UK, France, Spain, Italy & Sweden. See: https://covid19.healthdata.org/ https://covid19.healthdata.org/
- raydev 6y ago
  Looks like May 14 and later are still projections. It's now May 25. Given the spikes we've seen since states have started reopening, I'd want to see more up-to-date stats.
  - harryh 6y ago
    I certainly agree that predictions are hard. And things could go in another direction. I'm just saying that the progress of the disease to date has not been an "object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure."
    - KirinDave 6y ago
      It's outrageous, bordering on disingenuous, to compare anyone to Italy and Sweden and go, "See? Your health care infrastructure isn't so bad." Sweden deliberately elected not to use their infrastructure. Italy was the first critical European outbreak and their difficulties were information most other nations had. Why not look at South Korea or Mongolia? You know, actual success stories.
      - rayiner 6y ago
        You're mixing up two very different things. When you talk about Sanders and "health care infrastructure" people naturally assume you're talking about hospitals, insurance coverage, etc. That naturally raises the response of "well, Italy has socialized medicine, like Sanders wants, and that hasn't really helped it." South Korea's success does not have anything to do with left versus right--which is the topic at hand--or even really health care infrastructure. South Korea has experience dealing with respiratory virus outbreaks from China. It also has a population that is able to follow instructions and defer to authority, unlike people in western countries. Comparisons of the US to South Korea or Japan are "outrageous, bordering on disingenuous." In terms of social organization and ability to get things done, comparing New York City to Italy is actually very generous.
        KirinDave 6y ago
        > You're mixing up two very different things. When you talk about Sanders and "health care infrastructure" people naturally assume you're talking about hospitals, insurance coverage, etc. That naturally raises the response of "well, Italy has socialized medicine, like Sanders wants, and that hasn't really helped it." Quite the opposite. You're the one doing that. I didn't name specific mechanisms and instead said "infrastructure" precisely to avoid this conversation. It doesn't matter how it's implemented; what matters is that effective medical care and clear information can reach citizens in times of crisis. All the examples folks have named have clearly shown a total failure to do this. So despite how many great resources they may have amassed, they could not mobilize that into an effective civic infrastructure. You're the one who wants to argue about socialized medicine. From the look of it, that's because you want to gloss over the profound failure of the US to do anything resembling a credible disaster response or address the profound inequalities that exist in American health care. > South Korea's success does not have anything to do with left versus right I agree! > which is the topic at hand No, the topic is, "Is Rogan a reactionary?" The answer there is yes, and even recently he's been sympathetic to the ludicrous claims that doing nothing is a reasonable strategy during this pandemic. The man is a conspiracy theorist. He has been in the past and he'll continue to be so in the future because he's a reactionary and that's how they operate. > South Korea has experience dealing with respiratory virus outbreaks from China. It also has a population that is able to follow instructions and defer to authority, unlike people in western countries. South Korea had to enact an emergency law letting cities detain people for violating stay at home and mask orders because compliance was bad. I don't know why you think these pacific asian counties are "obedient" but that's... Not a good characterization. I will follow the site guidelines and assume you have an unconscious bias there as opposed to an active one. > Comparisons of the US to South Korea or Japan are "outrageous, bordering on disingenuous." In terms of social organization and ability to get things done, comparing New York City to Italy is actually very generous. New York was a worse individual outbreak than any Italian city from the last numbers I saw, so doesn't this invalidate harryh's comparison?
- JSavageOne 6y ago
  NYC has been hit the hardest in the world, there weren't enough masks and ventilators, and testing wasn't available except to those in the most dire conditions (despite what the politicians claimed). Also I don't think it's a fair comparison to compare the entire countries given the enormous size differences, the drastically lower population density of the U.S. (outside NYC), and again the lack of testing which is definitely drastically underestimating the real amount. Also the bigger problem in the U.S. is that tens of millions are uninsured and/or have health plans tied to jobs that they lost, have no sick leave, and are criminally overcharged for basic health services leading to medical disaster being the #1 cause of bankruptcy. This kind of precarity and suffering isn't captured in coronavirus case statistics.
- KirinDave 6y ago
  We'll need to wait and see for data on UK and France. Those countries certainly botched up their handling similarly (although not quite as long as we have). Comparing us to Sweden (which has essentially elected to do nothing at all except politely suggest large gathering should be cancelled and decline to enforce that suggestion) or Italy (the first European pandemic outbreak site, with a large population of older people who cohabitate with younger families, and extremely dense outbreak zones)seems like a low enough bar to be called "failure" given the economic resources the US has at its disposal.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Lots of countries can't deal with the pandemic, including ones that were universally agreed before 2020 to have great health systems.
rayiner 6y ago
Bernie is significantly to the left of Macron. Macron is a pro-business former investment banker who has campaigned on reforming labor unions in France, privatizing entities like SNCF, and deregulation generally. Macron is also an excellent example of why the notion that American politics is significantly more conservative Thani n Europe is overstated. In the first round, Macron won 24% of the vote. Fillion (center-right), Dupont-Aignan (Gaullist), and Le Pen (far-right) together had 45% of the vote. That is, nearly half the French electorate was to the right of Macron. The same is true in the UK, Ireland, Germany, and the Netherlands. All are headed by staunch neo-liberals, and have been for some time. Boris Johnson just blew out his socialist challenger; Merkel's hand-picked successor is now a leader of one of Germany's right-wing parties. Sanders' brand of liberalism is antediluvian. The "social-democratic" countries he admires have moved to a model better described as "welfare capitalism." See: https://www.acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2019/01/17/denmark-american-leftists-were-not-socialist https://www.acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2019/01/17/.... The conservative Heritage Foundation consistently ranks Denmark in the top 10 when it comes to economic freedom. While Sanders rails against corporations and calls for sweeping regulations, Denmark, Sweden, etc., have lowered corporate taxes to below U.S. levels and dramatically deregulated their economies. Over the past two decades, while Sanders stood still, almost the whole of Europe became more like America: they privatized state-owned industries, pursued aggressive deregulation, and increased individual choice. For example, while Sanders opposes charter schools, Sweden and Denmark have school vouchers for private schools, just like American Republicans want to do. As to COVID-19: it has been an eye-opening illustration of how socialized medicine doesn't help a whit when it comes time to dealing with a global pandemic. COVID-19 deaths per day per million peaked in the U.S. at half of what it did in Spain, Italy, and the UK: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-per-million-7-day-average https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-per-mi....
- KirinDave 6y ago
  Look, this shouldn't be seen either as for or against socialized medicine. Sweden has that, but their political infighting rendered their infrastructure moot, and they're now the single worst offender. It has to do with if the systems in place are accessible and capable of responding in times of crisis. South Korea and Mongolia have very different looking political structures and medical infrastructure, but their ability to effectively provide and enable their infrastructure to those who need it sets them leagues apart from the US and Sweden.

Pfhreak 6y ago

I am too, you'll find me at the local Socialist meetups, but there's no way I'd consider Rogan progressive.

JSavageOne 6y ago
I mean it's all relative I guess. Bernie Sanders was by far the most progressive U.S. presidential candidate in this election, so that would put Rogan's "progressiveness" in the country's minority. Anyways I think this is a stupid argument. My point wasn't to debate his progressiveness, just to point out how absurd it is to call a Bernie Sanders supporter "conservative".
- KirinDave 6y ago
  Who's Rogan voting for now, remind me? The truth is that Sanders cut across a different axis than a lot of Democrats.