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Most leftists I know consider Rogan to skew conservative. (And Biden is hardly Left, so that might not be the best yardstick.)

2019-nCoV 6y ago
The no true leftist meme.
- KirinDave 6y ago
  You can't just redefine the political spectrum every four years and pretended there's no history or global context. Bernie Sanders is a slightly left-of-centre person in a global context with slightly left-of-center politics which appeal more to the libertarian landscape then to the Communist, Anarchist or even Mutualist landscape. The fact that the average American can have this conversation and not seeing any contradiction and labeling Bernie Sanders far left as opposed to, say, Sweden or Finland just shows how distorted this conversation can become.
  - nkurz 6y ago
    > The fact that the average American can have this conversation and not seeing any contradiction and labeling Bernie Sanders far left as opposed to, say, Sweden or Finland just shows how distorted this conversation can become. This is disputable. Did you have thoughts on the story a from a couple months ago about the Swedish journalist making the point that Sanders supporters would be considered far left in Sweden: https://theweek.com/speedreads/896948/democratic-socialist-bernie-sanders-far-left-swedens-ruling-social-democrats-official-says https://theweek.com/speedreads/896948/democratic-socialist-b...
  - harryh 6y ago
    1) Bernie sanders thinks that we should have a tax system that is more progressive than Sweden, has higher capital gains taxes than Sweden, higher corporate taxes than Sweden and an individual wealth tax which Sweden does not have. At least on the issue of taxation, it's clear that he is to the left of that country (and basically every other country on the globe). 2) He also is for virtually abortion on demand where in Sweden it is largely prohibited after the 22nd week. 3) On health care Bernie Sanders has said that individuals should have "no premiums, no deductibles, no copays" which is also to the left of Sweden where individuals are expected to pay for some of their own medical care (before the government steps in to cover all expenses past a certain point). To be honest I can't think of any issue off the top of my head where Bernie Sanders is to the right of Sweden's current policies. Do you seriously think that if Bernie moved to Sweden he would start calling their politics too left wing and start arguing for conservative market reforms? That is very hard to imagine.
    - KirinDave 6y ago
      > At least on the issue of taxation, it's clear that he is to the left of that country (and basically every other country on the globe). Sorry, but the basis for comparison isn't "What policies currently exist" but "what the 'left' in those regions claims is the next course of action." Otherwise, you're suggesting Sweden is somehow the yardstick of the global left, which is confusing. They're somewhat famously on the wrong side of several issues associated globally with the left, like sex work. > 2) He also is for virtually abortion on demand where in Sweden it is largely prohibited after the 22nd week. Sanders's platform remained extremely light on details of this policy. Anytime a critique of a policy includes the words "virtually" you're equivocating. > 3) On health care Bernie Sanders has said that individuals should have "no premiums, no deductibles, no copays" which is also to the left of Sweden where individuals are expected to pay for some of their own medical care (before the government steps in to cover all expenses past a certain point). It's not clear to me if this is "left" or "right". "The Government Pays for Everything" is not inherently a "leftist" position or even a Libertarian (classical) position. Nor is, "The Individual Is Responsible For Health Care" essentially a rightward or authoritarian (classical) position. > Do you seriously think that if Bernie moved to Sweden he would start calling their politics too left wing and start arguing for conservative market reforms? I uh... really can't engage with a hypothetical like this? I have no idea what fictional New Somehow Fully Citizen Bernie Sanders would do? But I suspect he'd advocate for the use of military force against other countries to secure prosperity for his new hypothetical fellow citizens, since he holds that position in America.
      - harryh 6y ago
        Otherwise, you're suggesting Sweden is somehow the yardstick of the global left I didn't suggest this. You did: "labeling Bernie Sanders far left as opposed to, say, Sweden". You also mentioned Finland. TBH I just picked the first one on your list. I could have made very similar comparisons between Sanders and Finland. I stuck to only one for brevity. Sanders's platform remained extremely light on details of this policy. "Oppose all efforts to undermine or overturn Roe v. Wade, and appoint federal judges who will uphold women’s most fundamental rights." (under Women's Rights on https://berniesanders.com/issues/ https://berniesanders.com/issues/) Also the sentiment on his twitter feed is clear: https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3ABernieSanders%20abortion&src=typed_query&f=live https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3ABernieSanders%20abortion... Finally, Planned Parenthood gives Sanders a 100% rating: https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/congressional-scorecard#/VT/436/ https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/congressional-scorec... It's not clear to me if this is "left" or "right". It is generally accepted that the greater government intervention in the health care system the more "left" you are. The more health care is left up to individuals and private enterprise the more "right" you are.
  - justin66 6y ago
    > You can't just redefine the political spectrum every four years and pretended there's no history or global context. You shouldn't, but you certainly can. It's why so many Americans don't realize that their country's politics doesn't even have a left.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Maybe this was true in 1995, when Bill Clinton killed the left wing of the Democratic Party. But that refrain has become obsolete. Progressive democrats’ brand of socialism plus open borders is probably one of the furthest left mainstream ideologies in a western country. Green New Deal would be massively to the left of anything that has happened in Europe since the continent flirted with actual socialism in the 1970s. Implementing Warren’s or Sanders’ proposals would push government spending as a percentage of the economy past Sweden into Denmark territory. (And Denmark current social democratic government is far to the right of American democrats on immigration issues.)
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - KirinDave 6y ago
        What? EU members (a broadly popular and enviable status) have much more open borders and broader refugee responsiblities that anything that has gotten out of draft status in the house or Senate. What's more, leftists are split on the actual subject of borders. Communists like them, everyone else hates them, excepting decolonialists who essentially want them enforced only for indigenous peoples. It's very odd to suggest that the EU open immigration policy and One Currency is somehow not an open borders policy.
        rayiner 6y ago
        The EU system is not an open borders policy any more than the US system is one. EU countries have made the deliberate decision to enter into a political union. Membership into that union is an arduous process that involves meeting myriad benchmarks. EU citizens are one polity, governed by supreme EU law, and who vote in EU-wide elections. Legally, it’s not much different than the US federal system. But the EU’s external borders are no more porous, and the politics of guarding those borders is significantly to the right of US progressives. The EU took more refugees, sure, but that’s within the framework of otherwise low undocumented immigration. Adjusted for population, the US has had many illegal border crossings per month as the EU did all of last year. For example, US progressives want to decriminalize illegal entry. But illegal entry is a crime in the three largest EU countries (France, Germany, and the U.K.) and all of the Scandinavian countries: https://www.loc.gov/law/help/illegal-entry/chart.php https://www.loc.gov/law/help/illegal-entry/chart.php. Likewise, progressives want free healthcare for people here illegally. That’s left-wing even by European standards. Spain’s socialist government restored universal healthcare for undocumented immigrants, which a previous conservative government had eliminated. Macron is trying to reform France’s universal healthcare to restrict benefits for illegal immigrants. And Germany and most of Scandinavia only provide undocumented people emergency services, just like in the US. Countries like Denmark and New Zealand have recently combined left-wing economics with right-wing immigration policy. New Zealand’s Ardern, a darling of American liberal media for her liberalism in healthcare and women’s and LGBT issues, campaigned in reducing legal immigration, and came to power by forming a coalition government with the “New Zealand first” party. Denmark’s new social democrat PM is to the right of Trump on immigration issues. The platform espoused by people like Sanders and Warren is very liberal in comparison to mainstream ideologies in other western countries. Not only do they want to spend 50-60% of GDP on the government, like the Scandinavian countries, but they want to enable massive immigration, which the Scandinavian countries generally do not support. They are also anti-corporation and anti-free markets, which the Scandinavian countries generally embrace.
JSavageOne 6y ago
I'm a "leftist" and I consider Rogan progressive, just like anyone else who chooses to vote for Bernie Sanders.
- KirinDave 6y ago
  Certainly in relative terms Bernie Sanders would represent some aspects of progressive politics. However it's very important to know how regressive American politics are. While the loss of life is extremely unfortunate, the timely object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure is on full display globally right now. Despite being one of the wealthiest nations in the world we also can't deal with aglobal pandemic because we simply lack the infrastructure for Public Health and we've spent 20 years arguing about whether we should have it. Bernie Sanders's policies are slightly right of Macron, and he's pretty much the poster child for neoliberal centrism globally. He wants the same thing many other similar capitalist Nations have, which is essentially using tax dollars to ensure business prosperity by offsetting high-risk costs like healthcare.
  - harryh 6y ago
    the timely object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure is on full display globally right now The US is currently expected to have fewer per capita deaths from COVID19 than the UK, France, Spain, Italy & Sweden. See: https://covid19.healthdata.org/ https://covid19.healthdata.org/
    - raydev 6y ago
      Looks like May 14 and later are still projections. It's now May 25. Given the spikes we've seen since states have started reopening, I'd want to see more up-to-date stats.
      - harryh 6y ago
        I certainly agree that predictions are hard. And things could go in another direction. I'm just saying that the progress of the disease to date has not been an "object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure."
rayiner 6y ago
Within American politics (who else's politics would we be talking about here?) Rogan is squarely on the left. As evidenced by Biden, he's to the left even of many Democrats. (Remember, a big chunk of the Democratic Party is religious African Americans, half of whom are opposed to gay marriage, and hispanic Americans, many of whom are opposed to abortion.)
- KirinDave 6y ago
  > Rogan is squarely on the left. As evidenced by Biden, he's to the left even of many Democrats. I think an awful lot of American leftists disagree strongly with you. Being left of Biden is hardly an accomplishment.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    I think Biden is too far left, so being to the left of him is definitely not an "accomplishment." But my point is about the meaning of words. In discussing an article about an American media personality, describing Rogan as a "conservative pundit" is simply incorrect.
    - KirinDave 6y ago
      Maybe if I did that I'd be more concerned. I said he profited from and resembled one, but that he's an American centrist with strong reactionary sympathies. If your entire engagement here has been to dispute that I said this, then wow have we both wasted a lot of time.

2019-nCoV 6y ago

The no true leftist meme.

KirinDave 6y ago
You can't just redefine the political spectrum every four years and pretended there's no history or global context. Bernie Sanders is a slightly left-of-centre person in a global context with slightly left-of-center politics which appeal more to the libertarian landscape then to the Communist, Anarchist or even Mutualist landscape. The fact that the average American can have this conversation and not seeing any contradiction and labeling Bernie Sanders far left as opposed to, say, Sweden or Finland just shows how distorted this conversation can become.
- nkurz 6y ago
  > The fact that the average American can have this conversation and not seeing any contradiction and labeling Bernie Sanders far left as opposed to, say, Sweden or Finland just shows how distorted this conversation can become. This is disputable. Did you have thoughts on the story a from a couple months ago about the Swedish journalist making the point that Sanders supporters would be considered far left in Sweden: https://theweek.com/speedreads/896948/democratic-socialist-bernie-sanders-far-left-swedens-ruling-social-democrats-official-says https://theweek.com/speedreads/896948/democratic-socialist-b...
- harryh 6y ago
  1) Bernie sanders thinks that we should have a tax system that is more progressive than Sweden, has higher capital gains taxes than Sweden, higher corporate taxes than Sweden and an individual wealth tax which Sweden does not have. At least on the issue of taxation, it's clear that he is to the left of that country (and basically every other country on the globe). 2) He also is for virtually abortion on demand where in Sweden it is largely prohibited after the 22nd week. 3) On health care Bernie Sanders has said that individuals should have "no premiums, no deductibles, no copays" which is also to the left of Sweden where individuals are expected to pay for some of their own medical care (before the government steps in to cover all expenses past a certain point). To be honest I can't think of any issue off the top of my head where Bernie Sanders is to the right of Sweden's current policies. Do you seriously think that if Bernie moved to Sweden he would start calling their politics too left wing and start arguing for conservative market reforms? That is very hard to imagine.
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    > At least on the issue of taxation, it's clear that he is to the left of that country (and basically every other country on the globe). Sorry, but the basis for comparison isn't "What policies currently exist" but "what the 'left' in those regions claims is the next course of action." Otherwise, you're suggesting Sweden is somehow the yardstick of the global left, which is confusing. They're somewhat famously on the wrong side of several issues associated globally with the left, like sex work. > 2) He also is for virtually abortion on demand where in Sweden it is largely prohibited after the 22nd week. Sanders's platform remained extremely light on details of this policy. Anytime a critique of a policy includes the words "virtually" you're equivocating. > 3) On health care Bernie Sanders has said that individuals should have "no premiums, no deductibles, no copays" which is also to the left of Sweden where individuals are expected to pay for some of their own medical care (before the government steps in to cover all expenses past a certain point). It's not clear to me if this is "left" or "right". "The Government Pays for Everything" is not inherently a "leftist" position or even a Libertarian (classical) position. Nor is, "The Individual Is Responsible For Health Care" essentially a rightward or authoritarian (classical) position. > Do you seriously think that if Bernie moved to Sweden he would start calling their politics too left wing and start arguing for conservative market reforms? I uh... really can't engage with a hypothetical like this? I have no idea what fictional New Somehow Fully Citizen Bernie Sanders would do? But I suspect he'd advocate for the use of military force against other countries to secure prosperity for his new hypothetical fellow citizens, since he holds that position in America.
    - harryh 6y ago
      Otherwise, you're suggesting Sweden is somehow the yardstick of the global left I didn't suggest this. You did: "labeling Bernie Sanders far left as opposed to, say, Sweden". You also mentioned Finland. TBH I just picked the first one on your list. I could have made very similar comparisons between Sanders and Finland. I stuck to only one for brevity. Sanders's platform remained extremely light on details of this policy. "Oppose all efforts to undermine or overturn Roe v. Wade, and appoint federal judges who will uphold women’s most fundamental rights." (under Women's Rights on https://berniesanders.com/issues/ https://berniesanders.com/issues/) Also the sentiment on his twitter feed is clear: https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3ABernieSanders%20abortion&src=typed_query&f=live https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3ABernieSanders%20abortion... Finally, Planned Parenthood gives Sanders a 100% rating: https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/congressional-scorecard#/VT/436/ https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/congressional-scorec... It's not clear to me if this is "left" or "right". It is generally accepted that the greater government intervention in the health care system the more "left" you are. The more health care is left up to individuals and private enterprise the more "right" you are.
- justin66 6y ago
  > You can't just redefine the political spectrum every four years and pretended there's no history or global context. You shouldn't, but you certainly can. It's why so many Americans don't realize that their country's politics doesn't even have a left.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Maybe this was true in 1995, when Bill Clinton killed the left wing of the Democratic Party. But that refrain has become obsolete. Progressive democrats’ brand of socialism plus open borders is probably one of the furthest left mainstream ideologies in a western country. Green New Deal would be massively to the left of anything that has happened in Europe since the continent flirted with actual socialism in the 1970s. Implementing Warren’s or Sanders’ proposals would push government spending as a percentage of the economy past Sweden into Denmark territory. (And Denmark current social democratic government is far to the right of American democrats on immigration issues.)
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - KirinDave 6y ago
      What? EU members (a broadly popular and enviable status) have much more open borders and broader refugee responsiblities that anything that has gotten out of draft status in the house or Senate. What's more, leftists are split on the actual subject of borders. Communists like them, everyone else hates them, excepting decolonialists who essentially want them enforced only for indigenous peoples. It's very odd to suggest that the EU open immigration policy and One Currency is somehow not an open borders policy.
      - rayiner 6y ago
        The EU system is not an open borders policy any more than the US system is one. EU countries have made the deliberate decision to enter into a political union. Membership into that union is an arduous process that involves meeting myriad benchmarks. EU citizens are one polity, governed by supreme EU law, and who vote in EU-wide elections. Legally, it’s not much different than the US federal system. But the EU’s external borders are no more porous, and the politics of guarding those borders is significantly to the right of US progressives. The EU took more refugees, sure, but that’s within the framework of otherwise low undocumented immigration. Adjusted for population, the US has had many illegal border crossings per month as the EU did all of last year. For example, US progressives want to decriminalize illegal entry. But illegal entry is a crime in the three largest EU countries (France, Germany, and the U.K.) and all of the Scandinavian countries: https://www.loc.gov/law/help/illegal-entry/chart.php https://www.loc.gov/law/help/illegal-entry/chart.php. Likewise, progressives want free healthcare for people here illegally. That’s left-wing even by European standards. Spain’s socialist government restored universal healthcare for undocumented immigrants, which a previous conservative government had eliminated. Macron is trying to reform France’s universal healthcare to restrict benefits for illegal immigrants. And Germany and most of Scandinavia only provide undocumented people emergency services, just like in the US. Countries like Denmark and New Zealand have recently combined left-wing economics with right-wing immigration policy. New Zealand’s Ardern, a darling of American liberal media for her liberalism in healthcare and women’s and LGBT issues, campaigned in reducing legal immigration, and came to power by forming a coalition government with the “New Zealand first” party. Denmark’s new social democrat PM is to the right of Trump on immigration issues. The platform espoused by people like Sanders and Warren is very liberal in comparison to mainstream ideologies in other western countries. Not only do they want to spend 50-60% of GDP on the government, like the Scandinavian countries, but they want to enable massive immigration, which the Scandinavian countries generally do not support. They are also anti-corporation and anti-free markets, which the Scandinavian countries generally embrace.

JSavageOne 6y ago

I'm a "leftist" and I consider Rogan progressive, just like anyone else who chooses to vote for Bernie Sanders.

KirinDave 6y ago
Certainly in relative terms Bernie Sanders would represent some aspects of progressive politics. However it's very important to know how regressive American politics are. While the loss of life is extremely unfortunate, the timely object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure is on full display globally right now. Despite being one of the wealthiest nations in the world we also can't deal with aglobal pandemic because we simply lack the infrastructure for Public Health and we've spent 20 years arguing about whether we should have it. Bernie Sanders's policies are slightly right of Macron, and he's pretty much the poster child for neoliberal centrism globally. He wants the same thing many other similar capitalist Nations have, which is essentially using tax dollars to ensure business prosperity by offsetting high-risk costs like healthcare.
- harryh 6y ago
  the timely object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure is on full display globally right now The US is currently expected to have fewer per capita deaths from COVID19 than the UK, France, Spain, Italy & Sweden. See: https://covid19.healthdata.org/ https://covid19.healthdata.org/
  - raydev 6y ago
    Looks like May 14 and later are still projections. It's now May 25. Given the spikes we've seen since states have started reopening, I'd want to see more up-to-date stats.
    - harryh 6y ago
      I certainly agree that predictions are hard. And things could go in another direction. I'm just saying that the progress of the disease to date has not been an "object lesson of America's ridiculously inferior health care infrastructure."

rayiner 6y ago

Within American politics (who else's politics would we be talking about here?) Rogan is squarely on the left. As evidenced by Biden, he's to the left even of many Democrats. (Remember, a big chunk of the Democratic Party is religious African Americans, half of whom are opposed to gay marriage, and hispanic Americans, many of whom are opposed to abortion.)

KirinDave 6y ago
> Rogan is squarely on the left. As evidenced by Biden, he's to the left even of many Democrats. I think an awful lot of American leftists disagree strongly with you. Being left of Biden is hardly an accomplishment.
- rayiner 6y ago
  I think Biden is too far left, so being to the left of him is definitely not an "accomplishment." But my point is about the meaning of words. In discussing an article about an American media personality, describing Rogan as a "conservative pundit" is simply incorrect.
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    Maybe if I did that I'd be more concerned. I said he profited from and resembled one, but that he's an American centrist with strong reactionary sympathies. If your entire engagement here has been to dispute that I said this, then wow have we both wasted a lot of time.