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Becoming Addiction-Free (2017)

52 points by ivanche 6y ago

ujki1 6y ago
One additional reason for reducing addiction is that addictions like video games can make your baseline of 'fun' too high, so doing productive things doesn't feel fun even though it would otherwise.
ferros 6y ago
Are all addictions bad? I’m addicted to coffee. I have been caffeine free many times before however I prefer the coffee addiction.
- henriquez 6y ago
  The author seems to suggest that orgasms are bad. That’s where I kind of checked out. I think there is a lot of useful advice in here but it needs to be filtered against the cognitive biases of the author, who comes off as extremely obsessive and judgmental. These are useful traits to someone laser focused on controlling their own impulsive behavior but possibly not generally applicable to others in such an extreme sense.
  - eebynight 6y ago
    Really? I didn't pick up this sentiment at all. I think him even hinting at it being bad triggered the rationalization behavior in you that he talked about in the article. Hence why you just rationalized why you didn't need to listen to certain advice given in the article...
    - henriquez 6y ago
      I didn’t say not to listen. I’m actually quite fond of the points brought up here. I’m just saying it’s taken to an extreme, which is likely justified by the level of addiction that the author is guarding against. Coffee and orgasming is arguably not bad (there are health benefits to both). No one would dispute that the author’s kleptomania _is_ deviant behavior though. So I disagree that the goal should be to purge _all_ addictions, the goal should be to live a good life and eliminate addictions that obstruct this. The article still has good advice when viewed through this lens.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Are all addictions bad? Anything that meets the old diagnostic criteria for addiction or the current ones for even mild substance use disorder is bad, or at least on a very clear road to badness, yes. Lots of people use the term “addiction” for any habitual pleasure seeking activity, which is both wrong and, yes, includes lots of things that are not bad.
- 300bps 6y ago
  He addresses exactly what you’re talking about near the beginning of the article.
- ujki1 6y ago
  One way I use figure out if addiction is harmful is to consider: if I could freely edit my brain to make this thing no longer pleasurable, would I do it? I think some of the activities that are generally labelled as addictive can still be genuinely meaningful or have some instrumental value for some people.
- g_b 6y ago
  By definition yes. Compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse effects. I drink coffee non-compulsively once or twice a week, without bad effects.
- naringas 6y ago
  a good criterion is whether it's pathological i.e. do you incur in self-harm in order to satisfy your habit? do you pass up on opportunities because of it? e.g. would you pass up a chance to engage in some activity because you know there won't be any coffee?
adreamingsoul 6y ago
I haven't read the article, but the title of the post stood out to me because of this thought that I've been having today, "do I struggle with substance abuse?" The day/s after drinking alcohol tend to be down days for me. I'm more depressed, sad, and have lots of anxiety. I'm currently experiencing one of those days and it is starting to seriously concern me. I know It would be better for me to stop drinking alcohol completely. I've done it before and was able to be around alcohol without letting myself consume any. But at the moment I've been struggling with self-control and haven't been able to keep myself from drinking. So back to my original thought, I think the answer is yes.
- aspenmayer 6y ago
  When you get the message, hang up the phone. Best wishes.
metalliqaz 6y ago
I'd wager that 80% of the people reading this are addicted to checking sites like HN.
- nogabebop23 6y ago
  It's pretty important to split out addictions from habits/tendencies/routines. I'm not convinced checking HN several times a day develops the same physiological changes that say alcohol or nicotine do. We like to say we're "totally addicted to X" for things in which we over-indulge as a defense for the behaviour, but this is not the clinical definition of addiction. If I cut off your access to porn or video games or shop lifting it might be unpleasant but is very different than a meth-addict going cold turkey experiences.
  - apercu 6y ago
    "addicted to checking sites like HN" But if we look at the physiology social media sites and the such are triggering your brain in the same way. And if you cold turkey stop all of those things you are addicted to, you will have an adjustment period. And it could significantly affect you. Sure, it won't kill you like someone withdrawing from a physical addiction to alcohol might, to make you feel like you are dying like an opiate withdrawal, but lets not kid ourselves, the online systems OP and you refer to are designed to be addictive.
    - engineeringwoke 6y ago
      Doesn't every pleasurable thing you do trigger your brain in this way? There has to be a gray area in between ascetic and addict.
      - apercu 6y ago
        True, but there are billions of dollars at stake to make you addicted to social media sites, games, etc.
  - tonyarkles 6y ago
aszantu 6y ago
this guy is basically addicted to productivity xD
hobofan 6y ago
> The insidious thing about addictions is that all addictions weaken the prefrontal cortex, which is the part of your brain associated with self-discipline and willpower. The more addictions you have, the weaker your self-regulation abilities become Is there any science to back that claim up? First time I've heard that and it very much sounds like pseudo-science made up by "war on drugs" people. ------- EDIT: There seems to be a similar claim made in some review papers[0][1], though those primarily focus on hard drug abuse. Would be interesting to get the opinion of someone more qualified on the topic. ------- Either way, interesting article and at least that interconnection of weak addictions is nothing I thought about like that before. I think I might even try out that advice, as I'm currently struggling with strong procrastination (hence me commenting here) while coincidentally my weak addictions recently all had a bit of an uptick. [0]: https://dx.doi.org/10.1038%2Fnrn3119 https://dx.doi.org/10.1038%2Fnrn3119 [1]: https://dx.doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.brainresrev.2010.09.001 https://dx.doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.brainresrev.2010.09.001
- gshdg 6y ago
  Yeah. “Override” seems accurate. “Weaken” is a much stronger claim. That said, the overriding does make it harder to self-regulate. But only wrt each addiction rather than in general.
300bps 6y ago
What if you never consumed salt, oil, or sugar again? Within about 30 days, your taste buds would adapt and become more sensitive, and food would taste just as good as it did before, except that it would be less addictive, so you’d probably eat less of it. You’d also be less likely to develop heart disease. This is 100% true in my experience. In 2013 I gave up obvious sources of refined sugar and artificial sweetener due to an elevated triglycerides report. After two weeks all sweet cravings ended. Fruit started to taste amazing. Now I have dessert of any kind at most once per week and I probably haven’t had a soda of any kind in over five years. Oh and my triglycerides went from 232 to 113.
- saiya-jin 6y ago
  For sugar yes, that's well known (but when you eat fruit you are eating again just flavored sugar with fiber), but oil? The most distinct one for me is quality extra virgin olive oil and that's healthy as hell. And even that adds just a very mild flavor to ie salads.
  - 300bps 6y ago
    I agree that oil is a poor choice of words. I would’ve used the word, “fat”. To say fruit is flavored sugar with fiber when comparing it to candy is an oversimplification. Eating candy you can consume 1,000 calories with almost no effort. Good luck eating 15 cups of raspberries to get to that 1,000 calories. Who would do that? And the candy has no nutrition in it while raspberries have lots of vitamins, minerals and as you said fiber. The bottom line is that our society eats too much sugar, fat and salt and we’d be better off eating less.
tiborsaas 6y ago
> Would you like to be addiction-free? If so, then a good place to start is to paint a picture of what your life could be like with no addictions. That life would be very empty and boring. > What if you never had another orgasm for the rest of your life? I might as well be dead :) > Of course we could live happy and fulfilling lives without these short-term pleasures. When we think otherwise, we’re confusing pleasure with happiness. It’s the nature of addiction to treat pleasure and happiness as one. I'm addicted to a few things, but I don't consider them a source of happiness. You also can't really have happiness without short term pleasures, whatever they might be. > You can’t have a relationship with the addiction. There is no moderation for an addict. The standard you aim to reach is being permanently alcohol-free. Oh yes you can. The important question is that whether this relationship is disruptive, neutral or positive (like being addicted to training). Drinking isn't inherently bad, but the author thinks so. My impression is that there are equal number of studies on pro/contra moderate alcohol consumption.
- zambal 6y ago
  > The important question is that whether this relationship is disruptive, neutral or positive (like being addicted to training). Drinking isn't inherently bad, but the author thinks so. My impression is that there are equal number of studies on pro/contra moderate alcohol consumption. Not sure if it's part of the 'official' definition of addiction and forgot what the source of it was, but I always liked the explanation that if there's no negative (emotional) feedback loop, it's not really an addiction, but just a habit.
- marcofiset 6y ago
  > That life would be very empty and boring. Being addiction-free doesn't mean that you can't enjoy the occasional cup of coffee or alcoholic drink. As long as you're not addicted, some amount of short-term pleasure is perfectly fine.
  - tiborsaas 6y ago
    That's how I see it, but the article suggests to go all the way, eg. full abstinence on alcohol. As zambal said in the sibling comment, the definition of addiction matters a lot here.
draw_down 6y ago
I like that this takes the subject seriously- at least in America, people are very resistant to the notion that coffee is an addiction. Even if they do agree, it’s felt as pedantic to point out. So I’m glad it’s included here. My take on this revolves around the part where you’ll supposedly forge deeper connections etc. I just don’t see it. I suspect our connections are what they are. They’re all we have, but also in most cases not that strong really. And it’s just part of life. Since that is so unsatisfying, it makes sense to find it unacceptable and fixate on removing some contaminant, something that’s in the way of the real thing.
p1mrx 6y ago
> daily coffee ... (which is actually a poison) [citation needed]
- andreareina 6y ago
  It's not as toxic as say alcohol, and you'll be hard-pressed to overdose on coffee itself, but caffeine toxicity is a thing: > In 2016, 3702 caffeine related exposure were reported to Poison Control Centers in the United States, of which 846 required an hospitalization and 16 with a major outcome, and several caffeine-related deaths are reported in case studies. The LD50 of caffeine in humans is dependent on individual sensitivity, but is estimated to be 150–200 milligrams per kilogram (2.2 lb) of body mass (75–100 cups of coffee for a 70 kg (150 lb) adult). There are cases where doses as low as 57 milligrams per kilogram have been fatal. A number of fatalities have been caused by overdoses of readily available powdered caffeine supplements, for which the estimated lethal amount is less than a tablespoon. The lethal dose is lower in individuals whose ability to metabolize caffeine is impaired due to genetics or chronic liver disease. A death was reported in a man with liver cirrhosis who overdosed on caffeinated mints. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine
  - engineeringwoke 6y ago
    Water toxicity is a thing too. You should probably stop, you might die.
naringas 6y ago
overall good write-up yet I get a strong sensation of black VS white and there is no gray. either you're addicted or you're free, no middle ground, no gray areas, no better days in which is easy to overcome one's compulsions and no worse days in which it's much harder. simplistic "all or nothing" ideas which diminish nunace are also dopamine inducing, this is why memes are so popular. they are the refined sugar of information and understanding.
Kuzutsukake 6y ago
> It’s the nature of addiction to treat pleasure and happiness as one. The less of an addict you become, the more you’ll realize how separate and distinct these are, and the more weight you’ll place on long-term happiness. The means someone achieves pleasure or long term happiness can in fact be the same. And I see see no reason to believe why a video gaming community (what he refers to as a shallow connection) can't provide both. Are you enjoying yourself presently? Great, that's pleasure. Is this a sustainable way to enjoy yourself? Great, you are on your way to long term happiness. > We also expose the shallowness of connections that don’t really serve us. What does it say about a connection that isn’t as good without gaming or coffee? What does it say about the quality of a relationship if going orgasm-free for a while leaves you feeling hollow and empty instead of deeply in love and grateful? Addictions so often mask substantial weaknesses that we don’t feel ready to face. We have a wide variety of needs, and it is unreasonable to think there is a magic bullet. Different social groups (or activities, hobbies) meet different needs. If you remove whatever was meeting your need, then you will naturally feel a sense of loss, whether the relationship was a healthy one (what he calls intimate) or an addictive one. I would imagine the loss of my dog or a loved one would leave me grieving for some time and I would enjoy parts of my life less. This doesn't mean those less enjoyable things were bad.
nemo1618 6y ago
Recently I came across a device that claims it can help you break addictions via voluntary electric shocks: https://pavlok.com https://pavlok.com It seems plausible that it could work, but it's suspicious that the site doesn't address the most obvious question: Wouldn't I just stop shocking myself? Curious if any HNers have tried this thing.
- maneesh 6y ago
  Hey -- I'm the founder of Pavlok. When trying to quit a habit for good, you follow the aversion protocol -- You enable the Aversion mode. 5 minutes a day of intentionally doing the habit, while the device zaps. This creates an aversion, similar to getting so sick from drinking a type of alcohol that you don't want to do it again. If you decide to not use it, of course it can't work. However, the vast majority of users who complete the 5 day protocol register no desire or craving for the old habit, even a year later. You can read some more studies on our device specifically, and aversion in general, at pavlok.com/science.
JackPoach 6y ago
Wow, people are still taking Steve Pavlina seriously all those years later. OK.... P.S. To be clear, I am not a hater. I've learned about Steve when he was a game developer, having developed one marginally successful shareware game. That was more than ten years ago. He then decided to teach others how to become successful game developers and launched game publishing business. Which went nowhere. He blogged all along. Then Steve got interested in personal development, polyamory, polyphase sleep, etc. becoming 'an expert' in these topics, just like he has in successful game development and game publishing. This is a guy who believes in spirit guides (yes, really) - https://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2020/05/better-than-spirit-guides/ https://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2020/05/better-than-spirit... and for a low price of $299 can teach you that your reality is subjective - https://www.stevepavlina.com/submersion/ https://www.stevepavlina.com/submersion/
- stinos 6y ago
  Can you elaborate? Don't know the guy, but just what I read here seems mostly backed up by science - that is to say, I haven't read a lot on addiction so am definitely not an expert, but none of what I read here seems to contradict with what I think I know about it.
  - JackPoach 6y ago
    Yeah, I've updated the post after realizing that not everybody is as old as me. Steve was big in early 2000s (think 2008-2010) in the indie gamedev world that I was a part of too. I actually remember his (then) wife Erin. Erin is a psychic - https://www.erinpavlina.com/ https://www.erinpavlina.com/ There's also a person by the name of Christina Pavlina, who is a psychic and supposedly she's Steve's sister - https://theoneabsolute.com/about/ https://theoneabsolute.com/about/ Steve used to get a lot of 'hate blogging', there were a bunch of blogs devoted specifically to his personality (ex. https://www.sitepoint.com/community/t/seriously-sick-of-steve-pavlina/4221 https://www.sitepoint.com/community/t/seriously-sick-of-stev... or http://bigwig-bigwig.blogspot.com/2011/03/8-top-reasons-why-steve-pavlina-is.html http://bigwig-bigwig.blogspot.com/2011/03/8-top-reasons-why-... or https://stevepavlinalies.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/exposing-steve-pavlinas-scams-and-making-fun-of-his-nonsense/ https://stevepavlinalies.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/exposing-s...). I would have never imagined that I'd find Steve's post on HN.
lookalike 6y ago
I'm glad he stopped shoplifting or whatever, but that he did it himself (and just by moving...) means it wasn't even a serious problem, much less an addiction. If someone with a serious problem tried to view this as guidance, they'd get nowhere.
jkhdigital 6y ago
I think the link title needs a (2017) based on the publication date of this blog post.
kalia35 6y ago
No. Just no. Addiction is a serious matter which is well studied by actual scientists and mental health professionals. You can't just give advices about addiction unless you have been properly trained. Your affirmations on such subjects have to be backed by scientific evidence and having a big audience does not qualify for scientific evidence. Please, if you are interested about addiction or think you have a problematic relationship with a substance or a behavior, go and see the work of Dr. Andrew Tatarsky at https://www.centerforoptimalliving.com/ https://www.centerforoptimalliving.com/ for instance. Or ask a mental health professional which have an actual Ph.D. in psychology or medicine. You could also read actual scientific evidence if you know how to, just not that. This is just wrong.
rapjr9 6y ago
I've wondered if one of the problems with quitting an addictive substance is a loss of memory. Memory is often tied to setting, and being under the influence is part of setting. Remove the setting and the memories associated with it won't surface as often. (There is a common memory hack used to remember facts which is to envision a room or place you know well and "place" objects in it that correspond to what you want to remember. When you want to recall the facts you visit your memory room and the objects you've placed in it trigger recall.) So it seems like removing the "setting" of an addictive substance might also reduce the memories associated with it. In essence you would lose a part of your life, a piece of the person you were. That could be a net good thing for some people, but a net bad thing for others. If I remember correctly science has also shown that people who drink alcohol are more forgiving of others, which implies that people who quit drinking become meaner. There has been some theorizing that some addictive substances can (at least temporarily until physical side effects become detrimental) improve the creative output of artists. This is all just conjecture on my part, but it does seem possible that there are ramifications to quitting addiction that medical science has not considered yet and which may have an important influence on peoples ability to quit.
lcall 6y ago
For what it may be worth, our Church also has a very good, free 12-step program for overcoming addictions, with a bunch of online materials: https://addictionrecovery.churchofjesuschrist.org/steps?lang.. https://addictionrecovery.churchofjesuschrist.org/steps?lang.... I think even just reading it, watching some videos, is worthwhile, but the complete program can be effective.

52 points by ivanche 6y ago

One additional reason for reducing addiction is that addictions like video games can make your baseline of 'fun' too high, so doing productive things doesn't feel fun even though it would otherwise.

ferros 6y ago

Are all addictions bad? I’m addicted to coffee. I have been caffeine free many times before however I prefer the coffee addiction.

henriquez 6y ago
The author seems to suggest that orgasms are bad. That’s where I kind of checked out. I think there is a lot of useful advice in here but it needs to be filtered against the cognitive biases of the author, who comes off as extremely obsessive and judgmental. These are useful traits to someone laser focused on controlling their own impulsive behavior but possibly not generally applicable to others in such an extreme sense.
- eebynight 6y ago
  Really? I didn't pick up this sentiment at all. I think him even hinting at it being bad triggered the rationalization behavior in you that he talked about in the article. Hence why you just rationalized why you didn't need to listen to certain advice given in the article...
  - henriquez 6y ago
    I didn’t say not to listen. I’m actually quite fond of the points brought up here. I’m just saying it’s taken to an extreme, which is likely justified by the level of addiction that the author is guarding against. Coffee and orgasming is arguably not bad (there are health benefits to both). No one would dispute that the author’s kleptomania _is_ deviant behavior though. So I disagree that the goal should be to purge _all_ addictions, the goal should be to live a good life and eliminate addictions that obstruct this. The article still has good advice when viewed through this lens.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Are all addictions bad? Anything that meets the old diagnostic criteria for addiction or the current ones for even mild substance use disorder is bad, or at least on a very clear road to badness, yes. Lots of people use the term “addiction” for any habitual pleasure seeking activity, which is both wrong and, yes, includes lots of things that are not bad.
300bps 6y ago
He addresses exactly what you’re talking about near the beginning of the article.
ujki1 6y ago
One way I use figure out if addiction is harmful is to consider: if I could freely edit my brain to make this thing no longer pleasurable, would I do it? I think some of the activities that are generally labelled as addictive can still be genuinely meaningful or have some instrumental value for some people.
g_b 6y ago
By definition yes. Compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse effects. I drink coffee non-compulsively once or twice a week, without bad effects.
naringas 6y ago
a good criterion is whether it's pathological i.e. do you incur in self-harm in order to satisfy your habit? do you pass up on opportunities because of it? e.g. would you pass up a chance to engage in some activity because you know there won't be any coffee?

adreamingsoul 6y ago

I haven't read the article, but the title of the post stood out to me because of this thought that I've been having today, "do I struggle with substance abuse?" The day/s after drinking alcohol tend to be down days for me. I'm more depressed, sad, and have lots of anxiety. I'm currently experiencing one of those days and it is starting to seriously concern me. I know It would be better for me to stop drinking alcohol completely. I've done it before and was able to be around alcohol without letting myself consume any. But at the moment I've been struggling with self-control and haven't been able to keep myself from drinking. So back to my original thought, I think the answer is yes.

aspenmayer 6y ago
When you get the message, hang up the phone. Best wishes.

metalliqaz 6y ago

I'd wager that 80% of the people reading this are addicted to checking sites like HN.

nogabebop23 6y ago
It's pretty important to split out addictions from habits/tendencies/routines. I'm not convinced checking HN several times a day develops the same physiological changes that say alcohol or nicotine do. We like to say we're "totally addicted to X" for things in which we over-indulge as a defense for the behaviour, but this is not the clinical definition of addiction. If I cut off your access to porn or video games or shop lifting it might be unpleasant but is very different than a meth-addict going cold turkey experiences.
- apercu 6y ago
  "addicted to checking sites like HN" But if we look at the physiology social media sites and the such are triggering your brain in the same way. And if you cold turkey stop all of those things you are addicted to, you will have an adjustment period. And it could significantly affect you. Sure, it won't kill you like someone withdrawing from a physical addiction to alcohol might, to make you feel like you are dying like an opiate withdrawal, but lets not kid ourselves, the online systems OP and you refer to are designed to be addictive.
  - engineeringwoke 6y ago
    Doesn't every pleasurable thing you do trigger your brain in this way? There has to be a gray area in between ascetic and addict.
    - apercu 6y ago
      True, but there are billions of dollars at stake to make you addicted to social media sites, games, etc.
- tonyarkles 6y ago

aszantu 6y ago

this guy is basically addicted to productivity xD

hobofan 6y ago

> The insidious thing about addictions is that all addictions weaken the prefrontal cortex, which is the part of your brain associated with self-discipline and willpower. The more addictions you have, the weaker your self-regulation abilities become Is there any science to back that claim up? First time I've heard that and it very much sounds like pseudo-science made up by "war on drugs" people. ------- EDIT: There seems to be a similar claim made in some review papers[0][1], though those primarily focus on hard drug abuse. Would be interesting to get the opinion of someone more qualified on the topic. ------- Either way, interesting article and at least that interconnection of weak addictions is nothing I thought about like that before. I think I might even try out that advice, as I'm currently struggling with strong procrastination (hence me commenting here) while coincidentally my weak addictions recently all had a bit of an uptick. [0]: https://dx.doi.org/10.1038%2Fnrn3119 https://dx.doi.org/10.1038%2Fnrn3119 [1]: https://dx.doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.brainresrev.2010.09.001 https://dx.doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.brainresrev.2010.09.001

gshdg 6y ago
Yeah. “Override” seems accurate. “Weaken” is a much stronger claim. That said, the overriding does make it harder to self-regulate. But only wrt each addiction rather than in general.

300bps 6y ago

What if you never consumed salt, oil, or sugar again? Within about 30 days, your taste buds would adapt and become more sensitive, and food would taste just as good as it did before, except that it would be less addictive, so you’d probably eat less of it. You’d also be less likely to develop heart disease. This is 100% true in my experience. In 2013 I gave up obvious sources of refined sugar and artificial sweetener due to an elevated triglycerides report. After two weeks all sweet cravings ended. Fruit started to taste amazing. Now I have dessert of any kind at most once per week and I probably haven’t had a soda of any kind in over five years. Oh and my triglycerides went from 232 to 113.

saiya-jin 6y ago
For sugar yes, that's well known (but when you eat fruit you are eating again just flavored sugar with fiber), but oil? The most distinct one for me is quality extra virgin olive oil and that's healthy as hell. And even that adds just a very mild flavor to ie salads.
- 300bps 6y ago
  I agree that oil is a poor choice of words. I would’ve used the word, “fat”. To say fruit is flavored sugar with fiber when comparing it to candy is an oversimplification. Eating candy you can consume 1,000 calories with almost no effort. Good luck eating 15 cups of raspberries to get to that 1,000 calories. Who would do that? And the candy has no nutrition in it while raspberries have lots of vitamins, minerals and as you said fiber. The bottom line is that our society eats too much sugar, fat and salt and we’d be better off eating less.

tiborsaas 6y ago

> Would you like to be addiction-free? If so, then a good place to start is to paint a picture of what your life could be like with no addictions. That life would be very empty and boring. > What if you never had another orgasm for the rest of your life? I might as well be dead :) > Of course we could live happy and fulfilling lives without these short-term pleasures. When we think otherwise, we’re confusing pleasure with happiness. It’s the nature of addiction to treat pleasure and happiness as one. I'm addicted to a few things, but I don't consider them a source of happiness. You also can't really have happiness without short term pleasures, whatever they might be. > You can’t have a relationship with the addiction. There is no moderation for an addict. The standard you aim to reach is being permanently alcohol-free. Oh yes you can. The important question is that whether this relationship is disruptive, neutral or positive (like being addicted to training). Drinking isn't inherently bad, but the author thinks so. My impression is that there are equal number of studies on pro/contra moderate alcohol consumption.

zambal 6y ago
> The important question is that whether this relationship is disruptive, neutral or positive (like being addicted to training). Drinking isn't inherently bad, but the author thinks so. My impression is that there are equal number of studies on pro/contra moderate alcohol consumption. Not sure if it's part of the 'official' definition of addiction and forgot what the source of it was, but I always liked the explanation that if there's no negative (emotional) feedback loop, it's not really an addiction, but just a habit.
marcofiset 6y ago
> That life would be very empty and boring. Being addiction-free doesn't mean that you can't enjoy the occasional cup of coffee or alcoholic drink. As long as you're not addicted, some amount of short-term pleasure is perfectly fine.
- tiborsaas 6y ago
  That's how I see it, but the article suggests to go all the way, eg. full abstinence on alcohol. As zambal said in the sibling comment, the definition of addiction matters a lot here.

draw_down 6y ago

I like that this takes the subject seriously- at least in America, people are very resistant to the notion that coffee is an addiction. Even if they do agree, it’s felt as pedantic to point out. So I’m glad it’s included here. My take on this revolves around the part where you’ll supposedly forge deeper connections etc. I just don’t see it. I suspect our connections are what they are. They’re all we have, but also in most cases not that strong really. And it’s just part of life. Since that is so unsatisfying, it makes sense to find it unacceptable and fixate on removing some contaminant, something that’s in the way of the real thing.

p1mrx 6y ago

> daily coffee ... (which is actually a poison) [citation needed]

andreareina 6y ago
It's not as toxic as say alcohol, and you'll be hard-pressed to overdose on coffee itself, but caffeine toxicity is a thing: > In 2016, 3702 caffeine related exposure were reported to Poison Control Centers in the United States, of which 846 required an hospitalization and 16 with a major outcome, and several caffeine-related deaths are reported in case studies. The LD50 of caffeine in humans is dependent on individual sensitivity, but is estimated to be 150–200 milligrams per kilogram (2.2 lb) of body mass (75–100 cups of coffee for a 70 kg (150 lb) adult). There are cases where doses as low as 57 milligrams per kilogram have been fatal. A number of fatalities have been caused by overdoses of readily available powdered caffeine supplements, for which the estimated lethal amount is less than a tablespoon. The lethal dose is lower in individuals whose ability to metabolize caffeine is impaired due to genetics or chronic liver disease. A death was reported in a man with liver cirrhosis who overdosed on caffeinated mints. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine
- engineeringwoke 6y ago
  Water toxicity is a thing too. You should probably stop, you might die.

naringas 6y ago

overall good write-up yet I get a strong sensation of black VS white and there is no gray. either you're addicted or you're free, no middle ground, no gray areas, no better days in which is easy to overcome one's compulsions and no worse days in which it's much harder. simplistic "all or nothing" ideas which diminish nunace are also dopamine inducing, this is why memes are so popular. they are the refined sugar of information and understanding.

Kuzutsukake 6y ago

> It’s the nature of addiction to treat pleasure and happiness as one. The less of an addict you become, the more you’ll realize how separate and distinct these are, and the more weight you’ll place on long-term happiness. The means someone achieves pleasure or long term happiness can in fact be the same. And I see see no reason to believe why a video gaming community (what he refers to as a shallow connection) can't provide both. Are you enjoying yourself presently? Great, that's pleasure. Is this a sustainable way to enjoy yourself? Great, you are on your way to long term happiness. > We also expose the shallowness of connections that don’t really serve us. What does it say about a connection that isn’t as good without gaming or coffee? What does it say about the quality of a relationship if going orgasm-free for a while leaves you feeling hollow and empty instead of deeply in love and grateful? Addictions so often mask substantial weaknesses that we don’t feel ready to face. We have a wide variety of needs, and it is unreasonable to think there is a magic bullet. Different social groups (or activities, hobbies) meet different needs. If you remove whatever was meeting your need, then you will naturally feel a sense of loss, whether the relationship was a healthy one (what he calls intimate) or an addictive one. I would imagine the loss of my dog or a loved one would leave me grieving for some time and I would enjoy parts of my life less. This doesn't mean those less enjoyable things were bad.

nemo1618 6y ago

Recently I came across a device that claims it can help you break addictions via voluntary electric shocks: https://pavlok.com https://pavlok.com It seems plausible that it could work, but it's suspicious that the site doesn't address the most obvious question: Wouldn't I just stop shocking myself? Curious if any HNers have tried this thing.

maneesh 6y ago
Hey -- I'm the founder of Pavlok. When trying to quit a habit for good, you follow the aversion protocol -- You enable the Aversion mode. 5 minutes a day of intentionally doing the habit, while the device zaps. This creates an aversion, similar to getting so sick from drinking a type of alcohol that you don't want to do it again. If you decide to not use it, of course it can't work. However, the vast majority of users who complete the 5 day protocol register no desire or craving for the old habit, even a year later. You can read some more studies on our device specifically, and aversion in general, at pavlok.com/science.

JackPoach 6y ago

Wow, people are still taking Steve Pavlina seriously all those years later. OK.... P.S. To be clear, I am not a hater. I've learned about Steve when he was a game developer, having developed one marginally successful shareware game. That was more than ten years ago. He then decided to teach others how to become successful game developers and launched game publishing business. Which went nowhere. He blogged all along. Then Steve got interested in personal development, polyamory, polyphase sleep, etc. becoming 'an expert' in these topics, just like he has in successful game development and game publishing. This is a guy who believes in spirit guides (yes, really) - https://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2020/05/better-than-spirit-guides/ https://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2020/05/better-than-spirit... and for a low price of $299 can teach you that your reality is subjective - https://www.stevepavlina.com/submersion/ https://www.stevepavlina.com/submersion/

stinos 6y ago
Can you elaborate? Don't know the guy, but just what I read here seems mostly backed up by science - that is to say, I haven't read a lot on addiction so am definitely not an expert, but none of what I read here seems to contradict with what I think I know about it.
- JackPoach 6y ago
  Yeah, I've updated the post after realizing that not everybody is as old as me. Steve was big in early 2000s (think 2008-2010) in the indie gamedev world that I was a part of too. I actually remember his (then) wife Erin. Erin is a psychic - https://www.erinpavlina.com/ https://www.erinpavlina.com/ There's also a person by the name of Christina Pavlina, who is a psychic and supposedly she's Steve's sister - https://theoneabsolute.com/about/ https://theoneabsolute.com/about/ Steve used to get a lot of 'hate blogging', there were a bunch of blogs devoted specifically to his personality (ex. https://www.sitepoint.com/community/t/seriously-sick-of-steve-pavlina/4221 https://www.sitepoint.com/community/t/seriously-sick-of-stev... or http://bigwig-bigwig.blogspot.com/2011/03/8-top-reasons-why-steve-pavlina-is.html http://bigwig-bigwig.blogspot.com/2011/03/8-top-reasons-why-... or https://stevepavlinalies.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/exposing-steve-pavlinas-scams-and-making-fun-of-his-nonsense/ https://stevepavlinalies.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/exposing-s...). I would have never imagined that I'd find Steve's post on HN.

lookalike 6y ago

I'm glad he stopped shoplifting or whatever, but that he did it himself (and just by moving...) means it wasn't even a serious problem, much less an addiction. If someone with a serious problem tried to view this as guidance, they'd get nowhere.

jkhdigital 6y ago

I think the link title needs a (2017) based on the publication date of this blog post.

kalia35 6y ago

No. Just no. Addiction is a serious matter which is well studied by actual scientists and mental health professionals. You can't just give advices about addiction unless you have been properly trained. Your affirmations on such subjects have to be backed by scientific evidence and having a big audience does not qualify for scientific evidence. Please, if you are interested about addiction or think you have a problematic relationship with a substance or a behavior, go and see the work of Dr. Andrew Tatarsky at https://www.centerforoptimalliving.com/ https://www.centerforoptimalliving.com/ for instance. Or ask a mental health professional which have an actual Ph.D. in psychology or medicine. You could also read actual scientific evidence if you know how to, just not that. This is just wrong.

rapjr9 6y ago

I've wondered if one of the problems with quitting an addictive substance is a loss of memory. Memory is often tied to setting, and being under the influence is part of setting. Remove the setting and the memories associated with it won't surface as often. (There is a common memory hack used to remember facts which is to envision a room or place you know well and "place" objects in it that correspond to what you want to remember. When you want to recall the facts you visit your memory room and the objects you've placed in it trigger recall.) So it seems like removing the "setting" of an addictive substance might also reduce the memories associated with it. In essence you would lose a part of your life, a piece of the person you were. That could be a net good thing for some people, but a net bad thing for others. If I remember correctly science has also shown that people who drink alcohol are more forgiving of others, which implies that people who quit drinking become meaner. There has been some theorizing that some addictive substances can (at least temporarily until physical side effects become detrimental) improve the creative output of artists. This is all just conjecture on my part, but it does seem possible that there are ramifications to quitting addiction that medical science has not considered yet and which may have an important influence on peoples ability to quit.

lcall 6y ago

For what it may be worth, our Church also has a very good, free 12-step program for overcoming addictions, with a bunch of online materials: https://addictionrecovery.churchofjesuschrist.org/steps?lang.. https://addictionrecovery.churchofjesuschrist.org/steps?lang.... I think even just reading it, watching some videos, is worthwhile, but the complete program can be effective.