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To add to the information in this story (because I live in the neighborhood), there aren’t a ton of hotel options nearby, and all of the hotel options nearby ar

To add to the information in this story (because I live in the neighborhood), there aren’t a ton of hotel options nearby, and all of the hotel options nearby are along the non-toll road freeways and all require a drive or ride share.

Scoundreller 6y ago
Are the non-toll road freeways in really bad shape or?
- michaelbrave 6y ago
  around Austin traffic is bad, it's not LA or NYC bad but it gets worse everyday. The most direct ways to get about and avoid some traffic is the toll roads, usually the alternative is the frontage roads that go alongside them (think a highway with regular lanes parallel with it). The road design and infrastructure was the most annoying part of Texas.
- kgermino 6y ago
  I was wondering why they specified as well. My guess: the toll roads have much less traffic (for their size) than the free ones. I know that by me the toll is usually worth it if you value your time at all since the dedicated funding gives them the money to maintain and expand the road as needed.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 6y ago
    Yeah, the major toll roads in Austin are essentially empty enough that you never have to go below the speed limit. The campuses are off Parmer Ln, which isn’t in bad shape, it’s actually a pretty decent divided highway with 3 lanes on either side, but it’s not walkable or bikable at all and there are a ton of traffic lights.
    - SilasX 6y ago
      I go up Parmer a lot to see my parents and I definitely see cyclists all the time. Maybe not ideal but it has a clear bike lane and it's enough that people actually use it. Not walkable? That part's accurate though.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > since the dedicated funding gives them the money to maintain and expand the road as needed. The funding rarely has anything to do with it. In nearly all cases road tolls are priced far in excess of what it takes to maintain that stretch of road and the money is then reallocated to other things. What you're experiencing is that the toll deters other drivers from using that road, so there is less traffic on it. This is quite unegalitarian, because you're essentially creating a road for the upper class and then charging more than its maintenance cost to keep out the proles. Whereas if the tolls only covered maintenance of the toll road then the collection overhead would consume most of the money -- it's already not an insignificant cost even when the tolls are disproportionately high. They also create a perverse incentive for the government to leave non-toll roads in disrepair to increase their toll revenue by pushing people to the toll road.
    - kgermino 6y ago
      That may be true generally - I have no idea - but it definitely isn’t in Illinois. The tolls stay in the system and don’t support any non-tolled roads. If anything the subsidies go the other way, since cities will pay to have a ramp built that will then generate tolls for the main highway. I have no idea what percentage of the toll goes to collection costs. As far as un-egalitarian, I respectfully disagree. I’m sure there are people who can’t afford the toll costs, but “pay for what you use” seems perfectly reasonable to me. I guess that may be different if money is taken from the toll road as you described.
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        "Pay for what you use" in the case of roads would be the incremental amount of road damage caused by each vehicle, rather than the total road cost divided by the number of vehicles. The large majority of road maintenance costs are attributable to weather and semi trucks. (Road damage from vehicles is the fourth power of vehicle weight, so one semi does as much damage as thousands of cars.) Moreover, the problem with allocating the fixed cost (weather) portion of road maintenance to cars, or the cost attributable to large trucks, is then you over-deter use of the road. You don't want an inefficiency where you deter someone from using the road even though they value their use of it more than the cost to the state of allowing them to, because then you waste idle road capacity for which the fixed construction costs must be paid either way. Doing that also requires the amount of the toll to be even higher, because then you have to amortize the fixed costs over fewer vehicles. You end up with tolls much higher than the efficient level per vehicle even if the tolls do only pay for road maintenance, because of the over-deterrence. The better solution is to pay the fixed cost portion from general taxes and only charge the marginal cost for usage. But if you charge only the marginal cost for "light" passenger vehicles then the amount is so small as to not even be worth collecting.
- karlkatzke 6y ago
  No, the toll roads are pretty undeveloped but they’re a fast way to get places because they’re also lightly traveled except for people that absolutely have to and can afford to. The thing is, there’s really nothing along them except more suburban strip mall wasteland.
  - sys_64738 6y ago
    I use them when in Austin on business as the company pays tolls.
- bound008 6y ago
  Texas highways can be way bigger than expected, almost a monument to the American style of automobile based freedom. https://www.alamy.com/highway-interchange-or-multi-layered-highway-intersection-in-houston-texas-image244802144.html https://www.alamy.com/highway-interchange-or-multi-layered-h... I think the commenters point, was that even if it an employee was staying literally across the highway from the campus, there would be no way to walk. One you get to understand the road design in Texas, there are many advantages, such as their use of frontage roads and the ability to make u-turns under the highways without a traffic signal. But it generally speaks to the sprawl.
  - departure 6y ago
    Houston != Austin. Our freeway system is ridiculous. We have a single interstate, multiple tolls and no 'loop' around the city. Houston and Dallas may be famous for their 8 lane highways but that is not how Austin is designed.
SOLAR_FIELDS 6y ago
Yep, the closest decent hotels are either in the Domain (7-9 minute drive) or the Arboretum (again 7-9 minute drive). The offices (old and new, as the current one is only about 2km away) are basically in a suburban area with nothing really but housing and small strip centers nearby.
- adrianmonk 6y ago
  And to one side of the new Apple campus, there's a particular kind of nothing, development-wise: Robinson Ranch. It's a gigantic family-owned plot of land, about 7000 acres (11 square miles, 28 km^2). The Robinson family could have sold it all off to developers, but so far they have been very limited about that. Mostly they've just allowed stuff with obvious public benefit like a high school. So the new Apple campus is on a major road, and one side it's suburbs, but on the other side, it's trees, grass, and (this being Texas) a bit of cactus. More details: https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2018/12/15/a-primer-on-robinson-ranch-7-000-acres-of-central.html https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2018/12/15/a-primer-...

Scoundreller 6y ago

Are the non-toll road freeways in really bad shape or?

michaelbrave 6y ago
around Austin traffic is bad, it's not LA or NYC bad but it gets worse everyday. The most direct ways to get about and avoid some traffic is the toll roads, usually the alternative is the frontage roads that go alongside them (think a highway with regular lanes parallel with it). The road design and infrastructure was the most annoying part of Texas.
kgermino 6y ago
I was wondering why they specified as well. My guess: the toll roads have much less traffic (for their size) than the free ones. I know that by me the toll is usually worth it if you value your time at all since the dedicated funding gives them the money to maintain and expand the road as needed.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 6y ago
  Yeah, the major toll roads in Austin are essentially empty enough that you never have to go below the speed limit. The campuses are off Parmer Ln, which isn’t in bad shape, it’s actually a pretty decent divided highway with 3 lanes on either side, but it’s not walkable or bikable at all and there are a ton of traffic lights.
  - SilasX 6y ago
    I go up Parmer a lot to see my parents and I definitely see cyclists all the time. Maybe not ideal but it has a clear bike lane and it's enough that people actually use it. Not walkable? That part's accurate though.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > since the dedicated funding gives them the money to maintain and expand the road as needed. The funding rarely has anything to do with it. In nearly all cases road tolls are priced far in excess of what it takes to maintain that stretch of road and the money is then reallocated to other things. What you're experiencing is that the toll deters other drivers from using that road, so there is less traffic on it. This is quite unegalitarian, because you're essentially creating a road for the upper class and then charging more than its maintenance cost to keep out the proles. Whereas if the tolls only covered maintenance of the toll road then the collection overhead would consume most of the money -- it's already not an insignificant cost even when the tolls are disproportionately high. They also create a perverse incentive for the government to leave non-toll roads in disrepair to increase their toll revenue by pushing people to the toll road.
  - kgermino 6y ago
    That may be true generally - I have no idea - but it definitely isn’t in Illinois. The tolls stay in the system and don’t support any non-tolled roads. If anything the subsidies go the other way, since cities will pay to have a ramp built that will then generate tolls for the main highway. I have no idea what percentage of the toll goes to collection costs. As far as un-egalitarian, I respectfully disagree. I’m sure there are people who can’t afford the toll costs, but “pay for what you use” seems perfectly reasonable to me. I guess that may be different if money is taken from the toll road as you described.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      "Pay for what you use" in the case of roads would be the incremental amount of road damage caused by each vehicle, rather than the total road cost divided by the number of vehicles. The large majority of road maintenance costs are attributable to weather and semi trucks. (Road damage from vehicles is the fourth power of vehicle weight, so one semi does as much damage as thousands of cars.) Moreover, the problem with allocating the fixed cost (weather) portion of road maintenance to cars, or the cost attributable to large trucks, is then you over-deter use of the road. You don't want an inefficiency where you deter someone from using the road even though they value their use of it more than the cost to the state of allowing them to, because then you waste idle road capacity for which the fixed construction costs must be paid either way. Doing that also requires the amount of the toll to be even higher, because then you have to amortize the fixed costs over fewer vehicles. You end up with tolls much higher than the efficient level per vehicle even if the tolls do only pay for road maintenance, because of the over-deterrence. The better solution is to pay the fixed cost portion from general taxes and only charge the marginal cost for usage. But if you charge only the marginal cost for "light" passenger vehicles then the amount is so small as to not even be worth collecting.
karlkatzke 6y ago
No, the toll roads are pretty undeveloped but they’re a fast way to get places because they’re also lightly traveled except for people that absolutely have to and can afford to. The thing is, there’s really nothing along them except more suburban strip mall wasteland.
- sys_64738 6y ago
  I use them when in Austin on business as the company pays tolls.
bound008 6y ago
Texas highways can be way bigger than expected, almost a monument to the American style of automobile based freedom. https://www.alamy.com/highway-interchange-or-multi-layered-highway-intersection-in-houston-texas-image244802144.html https://www.alamy.com/highway-interchange-or-multi-layered-h... I think the commenters point, was that even if it an employee was staying literally across the highway from the campus, there would be no way to walk. One you get to understand the road design in Texas, there are many advantages, such as their use of frontage roads and the ability to make u-turns under the highways without a traffic signal. But it generally speaks to the sprawl.
- departure 6y ago
  Houston != Austin. Our freeway system is ridiculous. We have a single interstate, multiple tolls and no 'loop' around the city. Houston and Dallas may be famous for their 8 lane highways but that is not how Austin is designed.

SOLAR_FIELDS 6y ago

Yep, the closest decent hotels are either in the Domain (7-9 minute drive) or the Arboretum (again 7-9 minute drive). The offices (old and new, as the current one is only about 2km away) are basically in a suburban area with nothing really but housing and small strip centers nearby.

adrianmonk 6y ago
And to one side of the new Apple campus, there's a particular kind of nothing, development-wise: Robinson Ranch. It's a gigantic family-owned plot of land, about 7000 acres (11 square miles, 28 km^2). The Robinson family could have sold it all off to developers, but so far they have been very limited about that. Mostly they've just allowed stuff with obvious public benefit like a high school. So the new Apple campus is on a major road, and one side it's suburbs, but on the other side, it's trees, grass, and (this being Texas) a bit of cactus. More details: https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2018/12/15/a-primer-on-robinson-ranch-7-000-acres-of-central.html https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2018/12/15/a-primer-...