7 ms·

There thing that really bugs me is that the net fees to the restaurant are usually hidden from the user, so when users who care (which I admit was probably few,

There thing that really bugs me is that the net fees to the restaurant are usually hidden from the user, so when users who care (which I admit was probably few, until this recent wave of indignation) couldn't take this into account. I hope that the result of this new wave of concern is forcing the delivery apps to display the total fees they are charging the restaurant.

sokoloff 6y ago
Are you similarly annoyed that you can’t learn the rent, ingredient prices, or wages costs? I think that businesses have all kinds of expenses and that they’re in business to abstract that away and offer me dish X for $Y at place P and time T. I’m not inclined to care about their bank fees, advertising costs, health care costs, or SEO strategy.
- EGreg 6y ago
  This is different because it’s the app you are USING. It’s been added to the chain late in the game and therefore we as a society care about how the restaurant has been affected by this new development. Like are they in a race to the bottom now. It’s a bit like the Trolley problem where you only agonize about the latest decision, and not what happened before you came on the scene.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  Delivery cost is different in that you normally avoid it as a customer if you go in person. So it's not actually abstracted away from you. You can't avoid their rent, wages, etc.
  - the8472 6y ago
    If you're ordering from a chain then taking delivery could allow them to arbitrate on the rent part. And you wouldn't be taking up any of their table space either.
- njovin 6y ago
  While we may not be able to know those exact costs we can get close. I know that a restaurant in an upscale mall is paying more for rent. I know the minimum staff costs depending on the city they’re in (minimum wage). What I don’t like is that these companies will flaunt “No delivery fee!” And then in the cart you see a $5 “service fee”. Okay, what’s the difference? Who is actually getting that money? Is any of it going to the driver? The restaurant? All of these factors would help me decide which platform to use, which restaurant to order from, and how to tip.
- mc32 6y ago
  Restaurants are very competitive and few can charge exorbitant fees. They are the opposite of cartels. With regard to ingredients we can likely guess ~60-70% discount over supermarket prices. In any case this has been a business model for centuries and people have a decent idea of how it works. With delivery apps the economics aren’t well understood by end users, moreover users don’t fully understand the impact they have in the restaurants they want to support.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- lordnacho 6y ago
  Yes, in general all prices ought to be transparent. It's a basic necessity for a competitive market. You want people to be able to easily find out if some firm is making a lot of money, so they can do it cheaper.
- II2II 6y ago
  I suspect two factors are at play here: One is that people are obtaining the delivery service and are billed through a third party. There is a reasonable expectation to know how much of that money is going to the intended recipient. The second is that this is something new and very few people have any concept of what it is costing the business. While they may not know the particulars, they have a general idea of how much rent, labour, food, and credit card fees cost since they have been part of business planning for a third time. I also hope that a third factor is starting to come into play: an understanding of the barriers to creating businesses and the costs of operating. It will, hopefully, help consumers make conscious decisions of how they interact with small businesses to make them more viable.
- alibarber 6y ago
  Yes I would be annoyed if, in addition to charging rent to the restaurant, the landlord appeared when I tried to go in and pestered me into paying a ‘service fee’ or ‘entry fee’ and ‘landlord tip’ or whatever other nonsense that these services come up with.
- standardUser 6y ago
  The general public increasingly does care about wages. They care about it in a seemingly random manor, chiding certain industries and completely ignoring other, larger industries. But nonetheless, people do care more now than they seemed to in the past.
- folmar 6y ago
  If you ask politely most chefs would just tell you the approximate costs. That information is well known, only minor details of rent might be off a bit.
- mcv 6y ago
  I do care that the people who make my food are properly paid for it. But more than that, I really care when I'm wasting money to pay extra for delivery when I might easily be able to pick it up.
matz1 6y ago
Why does it matter though? it doesn't matter if the burger cost $1 + $9 fee or $9 + $1 fee, from my perspective the burger cost $10.
- kingnight 6y ago
  You might care that you are paying $10 for $1 quality burger? But more I think people want their money to support the businesses that are making the food. Restaurants are very difficult businesses, and people that like them want to support them vs the VC backed startups.
  - matz1 6y ago
    I care, so I judge the quality according to the money I paid to obtain it, in this case I judge it as $10 quality burger.
    - mint2 6y ago
      With the extreme cost disparity in your example, it’s only Taking your example a tiny bit further to say if the restaurant was paid zero by the app but the app somehow got their food, you’d be be okay with it. It’s not much more extreme from what your comment said to say if you value a burger $10 it doesn’t matter if the $10 went to someone who involuntarily coerced the restaurant and $0 went to the restaurant. What is the name for workers who do work without pay? Most people have some sense of moral rightness in their supply chain when an injustice is visible. That is why the apps hide their exorbitant fees.
      - matz1 6y ago
        >if the restaurant was paid zero by the app but the app somehow got their food, you’d be be okay with it If I'm the customer: yes. If I'm the restaurant: no, I would not agree to give out food if I'm getting paid zero. > What is the name for workers who do work without pay? Same thing if I'm the worker, it doesn't matter if the pay is $10 - $9 deduction or $1 - $0 deduction, in both case it really is $1. I then decide whether it worth my effort to do it for $1.
tgb 6y ago
In a related business, AirBNB straight-up lies about its service fees. I got a refund but it was much less than expected and they informed it was their service fees, after pressing them that that didn't add up to the service fee in my receipt, they admitted that there is also a service fee hidden in the part that is labelled as going to the host. So they take a chunk out from what I send them and then they also take a chunk out from what they claim to send the host and this matters both to the host and also to me since it affects how much can be refunded. I can't imagine itemizing a customer's receipt incorrectly like this is truly above-board with the law but what am I going to do?
- ticviking 6y ago
  Charge back for not as described and incomplete refund.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  In Europe that's actually illegal. A middle man should represent the buyer or the seller but can not represent both and charge a commission to both. Interesting. This could easily be a point where they can be hurt.

sokoloff 6y ago

Are you similarly annoyed that you can’t learn the rent, ingredient prices, or wages costs? I think that businesses have all kinds of expenses and that they’re in business to abstract that away and offer me dish X for $Y at place P and time T. I’m not inclined to care about their bank fees, advertising costs, health care costs, or SEO strategy.

EGreg 6y ago
This is different because it’s the app you are USING. It’s been added to the chain late in the game and therefore we as a society care about how the restaurant has been affected by this new development. Like are they in a race to the bottom now. It’s a bit like the Trolley problem where you only agonize about the latest decision, and not what happened before you came on the scene.
mehrdadn 6y ago
Delivery cost is different in that you normally avoid it as a customer if you go in person. So it's not actually abstracted away from you. You can't avoid their rent, wages, etc.
- the8472 6y ago
  If you're ordering from a chain then taking delivery could allow them to arbitrate on the rent part. And you wouldn't be taking up any of their table space either.
njovin 6y ago
While we may not be able to know those exact costs we can get close. I know that a restaurant in an upscale mall is paying more for rent. I know the minimum staff costs depending on the city they’re in (minimum wage). What I don’t like is that these companies will flaunt “No delivery fee!” And then in the cart you see a $5 “service fee”. Okay, what’s the difference? Who is actually getting that money? Is any of it going to the driver? The restaurant? All of these factors would help me decide which platform to use, which restaurant to order from, and how to tip.
mc32 6y ago
Restaurants are very competitive and few can charge exorbitant fees. They are the opposite of cartels. With regard to ingredients we can likely guess ~60-70% discount over supermarket prices. In any case this has been a business model for centuries and people have a decent idea of how it works. With delivery apps the economics aren’t well understood by end users, moreover users don’t fully understand the impact they have in the restaurants they want to support.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
lordnacho 6y ago
Yes, in general all prices ought to be transparent. It's a basic necessity for a competitive market. You want people to be able to easily find out if some firm is making a lot of money, so they can do it cheaper.
II2II 6y ago
I suspect two factors are at play here: One is that people are obtaining the delivery service and are billed through a third party. There is a reasonable expectation to know how much of that money is going to the intended recipient. The second is that this is something new and very few people have any concept of what it is costing the business. While they may not know the particulars, they have a general idea of how much rent, labour, food, and credit card fees cost since they have been part of business planning for a third time. I also hope that a third factor is starting to come into play: an understanding of the barriers to creating businesses and the costs of operating. It will, hopefully, help consumers make conscious decisions of how they interact with small businesses to make them more viable.
alibarber 6y ago
Yes I would be annoyed if, in addition to charging rent to the restaurant, the landlord appeared when I tried to go in and pestered me into paying a ‘service fee’ or ‘entry fee’ and ‘landlord tip’ or whatever other nonsense that these services come up with.
standardUser 6y ago
The general public increasingly does care about wages. They care about it in a seemingly random manor, chiding certain industries and completely ignoring other, larger industries. But nonetheless, people do care more now than they seemed to in the past.
folmar 6y ago
If you ask politely most chefs would just tell you the approximate costs. That information is well known, only minor details of rent might be off a bit.
mcv 6y ago
I do care that the people who make my food are properly paid for it. But more than that, I really care when I'm wasting money to pay extra for delivery when I might easily be able to pick it up.

matz1 6y ago

Why does it matter though? it doesn't matter if the burger cost $1 + $9 fee or $9 + $1 fee, from my perspective the burger cost $10.

kingnight 6y ago
You might care that you are paying $10 for $1 quality burger? But more I think people want their money to support the businesses that are making the food. Restaurants are very difficult businesses, and people that like them want to support them vs the VC backed startups.
- matz1 6y ago
  I care, so I judge the quality according to the money I paid to obtain it, in this case I judge it as $10 quality burger.
  - mint2 6y ago
    With the extreme cost disparity in your example, it’s only Taking your example a tiny bit further to say if the restaurant was paid zero by the app but the app somehow got their food, you’d be be okay with it. It’s not much more extreme from what your comment said to say if you value a burger $10 it doesn’t matter if the $10 went to someone who involuntarily coerced the restaurant and $0 went to the restaurant. What is the name for workers who do work without pay? Most people have some sense of moral rightness in their supply chain when an injustice is visible. That is why the apps hide their exorbitant fees.
    - matz1 6y ago
      >if the restaurant was paid zero by the app but the app somehow got their food, you’d be be okay with it If I'm the customer: yes. If I'm the restaurant: no, I would not agree to give out food if I'm getting paid zero. > What is the name for workers who do work without pay? Same thing if I'm the worker, it doesn't matter if the pay is $10 - $9 deduction or $1 - $0 deduction, in both case it really is $1. I then decide whether it worth my effort to do it for $1.

tgb 6y ago

In a related business, AirBNB straight-up lies about its service fees. I got a refund but it was much less than expected and they informed it was their service fees, after pressing them that that didn't add up to the service fee in my receipt, they admitted that there is also a service fee hidden in the part that is labelled as going to the host. So they take a chunk out from what I send them and then they also take a chunk out from what they claim to send the host and this matters both to the host and also to me since it affects how much can be refunded. I can't imagine itemizing a customer's receipt incorrectly like this is truly above-board with the law but what am I going to do?

ticviking 6y ago
Charge back for not as described and incomplete refund.
jacquesm 6y ago
In Europe that's actually illegal. A middle man should represent the buyer or the seller but can not represent both and charge a commission to both. Interesting. This could easily be a point where they can be hurt.