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There was nothing "unannounced" about it. Notarization was introduced at WWDC 2018 and announced as required at WWDC 2019. Every macOS developer should have bee

There was nothing "unannounced" about it. Notarization was introduced at WWDC 2018 and announced as required at WWDC 2019. Every macOS developer should have been aware of this requirement. It was a special project for my apps.

ghayes 6y ago
I believe the concern here is that this is affecting not just macOS developers, but all developers who use macOS. That's an important distinction.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Developers who use macOS as shiny GNU/Linux replacement are only getting what they deserve, they should have supported Linux OEMs to start with. Those that show up at FOSDEM, carrying their beloved macBooks and iPads while pretending to be into FOSS. I use Apple devices knowingly what they are for, not as replacement for something else.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    What if using macOS enables me to be a more effective FOSS contributor? What if I think that FOSDEM is actually has many participants who aren't really into free software?
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Then they are on the wrong spot to start with, and really didn't got the message what FOSDEM is all about. It is a bit hard to be an aspiring FOSS contributor given the foundations those contributions are built upon. Those same Apple loving users would be laugh upon at FOSDEM if they demoed any of their stuff on Windows instead. Yet, there is hardly any difference between those corporations going all the way back to their origins. Somehow after NeXTSTEP's adoption as OS X, NeXT and Apple's proprietary behaviour was forgotten and everything excused, because "hey they are shipping an UNIX clone"!
    - Yetanfou 6y ago
      > What if using macOS enables me to be a more effective FOSS contributor? How would that work? When you build a house on rented ground the house may seem to be yours but it can always be taken away from you.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        I’m familiar with macOS and contribute to a number of FOSS projects from it. I’m less productive on other platforms.
        Yetanfou 6y ago
        In that case you'd do both yourself and those who depend on you for your contributions a favour by taking some of that time to get acquainted with alternative platforms seeing as how Apple seems to be on a course which will make it harder and harder to use their platform for this purpose. Like the Boy Scouts (used to) say, "Be Prepared!". Install a (few) Linux/BSD distribution(s) in a VM and try using those for a while to get a feel of the platform and its strengths/weaknesses so you have somewhere to land when the time comes.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        I do use Linux for some of my work, especially when I’m working with ELF binaries. Just not a comfortable with it.
      - ecnahc515 6y ago
        Your analogy isn't the best. This is like someone renting construction equipment to build a house on land they own, and finding out that the construction equipment phones home to the owners about how it's being used.
  - fluffything 6y ago
    I've partially switched from MacOS X to Linux now that wayland pipewire is reaching a mostly functional state and am quite happy with it. It took me maybe 150 hours to do the switch though during quarantine, and I still haven't managed to be able to properly connect to SMB at work...
    - uep 6y ago
      I'm on Linux now, very interested in using Wayland+Pipewire, but still stuck on Xorg. What distro are you using? I was considering building a Wayland/Pipewire Desktop software stack from scratch since my distro doesn't support them yet. I have become partial to experimenting with new software this way because it allows me to switch back to my known-good distro software without rebooting (most things I care about preserving the state of exist in the console anyway). If it is relatively supported in a specific distro, I'm sort of interested in trying it.
      - fluffything 6y ago
        I use Arch with Sway.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      What problem do you have connecting to SMB? It's one of the things that work better for me on Linux than on MacOS (no problem with browsing shares, no disappearing shares, no problem with non-normalized unicode filenames).
      - fluffything 6y ago
        It just doesn't connect / mount at all. Last time I tried to debug it, this was caused due to a too old samba protocol version being used on the Windows side. On MacOSX, I just click on connect to server, and it works for me "as is".
        vetinari 6y ago
        On MacOS, I get randomly appearing and disappearing servers in the sidebar (they disappear usually when I need them) and "cannot be opened because the original item cannot be found" for already mounted shares. It also keeps permanently mounted "photos" share on my home NAS and bad things happen when I try force unmounting it (but if it disappears because I'm not connected to my home network, that's ok for some reason). This got especially bad in Mojave and Catalina; there was a period of time (10.15.0 - 10.15.2) when I had to restart Finder if I wanted to mount share that was previously unmounted. Never happened that with Linux. What did happen that there was a period of time on some distributions (circa Fedora 28-30?), when SMB1 discovery didn't work because entire SMB1 was disabled. This was security migitation (EternalBlue/WannaCry/NotPetya) and Microsoft is doing the same in Windows 2016/2019/10[1][2]. In general, using SMB2/3 is good idea anyway, Linux distributions/Samba eventually enabled SMB1 only for client-side discovery, and you can still enable entire SMB1 if you need it for some reason - do you still have Windows 2003 someplace? [1] https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/josebda/2015/04/21/the-deprecation-of-smb1-you-should-be-planning-to-get-rid-of-this-old-smb-dialect/ https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/josebda/2015/04/21/the-d... [2] https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/storage-at-microsoft/stop-using-smb1/ba-p/425858 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/storage-at-microsoft/...
  - nottorp 6y ago
    Sadly it's not the "shiny"... it's the fact that Mac OS has a GUI that works. Been using linux since the days you installed Slackware from floppies and recompiled your kernel to get drivers. Command line has always been a bliss, but no one has managed to come up with an usable and consistent GUI yet. Btw does sleep work on linux laptops these days? How's hi dpi support?
    - stilley2 6y ago
      When was the last time you gave KDE a try? I just switched from using a tiling window manager and was impressed by how much stuff "just works" and the degree of customizability.
      - konart 6y ago
        >the degree of customizability. That's part of the problem. Customizability is good, but in return you get inconsistency that you can't fix. And even if all system default apps looks the same (they still look horrible in my opinion), 90% of 3rd party apps look and feel different. You can hardly name a linux (qt or gtk) app that can be name elegant or at least thought through (UI wise). Almost all applications still look like they were build to be used on some factory terminal.
      - nottorp 6y ago
        Last time i used KDE for a significant amount of time, something was distracting. Then i realized what it was: the "system tray" icons were erasing themselves and then got redrawn one by one and readjusted their position with each redraw. Distracting as hell when you're trying to concentrate on the code in a nearby window. Mind, that was in 2013, and hopefully KDE has improved since then. Perhaps it has even reached the level KDE 3 was at? It's been downhill from there. Btw, I switched to Macs from running Linux with KDE as my desktop of choice full time.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      It is hard to improve things when everyone is on other platforms. I am mostly on Windows devices, and use a GNU/Linux aging netbook for travelling. In what concerns this Asus 1215B, everything works, with the exception that the open source AMD drivers were a downgrade from the binary blobs (OpenGL 4.1 => OpenGL 3.3 without video hardware decoding). However I still kept it around, because although I don't target GNU/Linux as part of my work, I wanted to give Asus the message that selling GNU/Linux laptops might be a relevant business. Eventually when it dies, I will be Windows/Android and occasionally macOS only user/developer, but I am not using any of these platforms to emulate GNU/Linux, I use them for their own value.
make3 6y ago
developer who uses MacOS != MacOS developer. I couldn't care less about what is announced at WWDC

ghayes 6y ago

I believe the concern here is that this is affecting not just macOS developers, but all developers who use macOS. That's an important distinction.

pjmlp 6y ago
Developers who use macOS as shiny GNU/Linux replacement are only getting what they deserve, they should have supported Linux OEMs to start with. Those that show up at FOSDEM, carrying their beloved macBooks and iPads while pretending to be into FOSS. I use Apple devices knowingly what they are for, not as replacement for something else.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  What if using macOS enables me to be a more effective FOSS contributor? What if I think that FOSDEM is actually has many participants who aren't really into free software?
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Then they are on the wrong spot to start with, and really didn't got the message what FOSDEM is all about. It is a bit hard to be an aspiring FOSS contributor given the foundations those contributions are built upon. Those same Apple loving users would be laugh upon at FOSDEM if they demoed any of their stuff on Windows instead. Yet, there is hardly any difference between those corporations going all the way back to their origins. Somehow after NeXTSTEP's adoption as OS X, NeXT and Apple's proprietary behaviour was forgotten and everything excused, because "hey they are shipping an UNIX clone"!
  - Yetanfou 6y ago
    > What if using macOS enables me to be a more effective FOSS contributor? How would that work? When you build a house on rented ground the house may seem to be yours but it can always be taken away from you.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      I’m familiar with macOS and contribute to a number of FOSS projects from it. I’m less productive on other platforms.
      - Yetanfou 6y ago
        In that case you'd do both yourself and those who depend on you for your contributions a favour by taking some of that time to get acquainted with alternative platforms seeing as how Apple seems to be on a course which will make it harder and harder to use their platform for this purpose. Like the Boy Scouts (used to) say, "Be Prepared!". Install a (few) Linux/BSD distribution(s) in a VM and try using those for a while to get a feel of the platform and its strengths/weaknesses so you have somewhere to land when the time comes.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        I do use Linux for some of my work, especially when I’m working with ELF binaries. Just not a comfortable with it.
    - ecnahc515 6y ago
      Your analogy isn't the best. This is like someone renting construction equipment to build a house on land they own, and finding out that the construction equipment phones home to the owners about how it's being used.
- fluffything 6y ago
  I've partially switched from MacOS X to Linux now that wayland pipewire is reaching a mostly functional state and am quite happy with it. It took me maybe 150 hours to do the switch though during quarantine, and I still haven't managed to be able to properly connect to SMB at work...
  - uep 6y ago
    I'm on Linux now, very interested in using Wayland+Pipewire, but still stuck on Xorg. What distro are you using? I was considering building a Wayland/Pipewire Desktop software stack from scratch since my distro doesn't support them yet. I have become partial to experimenting with new software this way because it allows me to switch back to my known-good distro software without rebooting (most things I care about preserving the state of exist in the console anyway). If it is relatively supported in a specific distro, I'm sort of interested in trying it.
    - fluffything 6y ago
      I use Arch with Sway.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    What problem do you have connecting to SMB? It's one of the things that work better for me on Linux than on MacOS (no problem with browsing shares, no disappearing shares, no problem with non-normalized unicode filenames).
    - fluffything 6y ago
      It just doesn't connect / mount at all. Last time I tried to debug it, this was caused due to a too old samba protocol version being used on the Windows side. On MacOSX, I just click on connect to server, and it works for me "as is".
      - vetinari 6y ago
        On MacOS, I get randomly appearing and disappearing servers in the sidebar (they disappear usually when I need them) and "cannot be opened because the original item cannot be found" for already mounted shares. It also keeps permanently mounted "photos" share on my home NAS and bad things happen when I try force unmounting it (but if it disappears because I'm not connected to my home network, that's ok for some reason). This got especially bad in Mojave and Catalina; there was a period of time (10.15.0 - 10.15.2) when I had to restart Finder if I wanted to mount share that was previously unmounted. Never happened that with Linux. What did happen that there was a period of time on some distributions (circa Fedora 28-30?), when SMB1 discovery didn't work because entire SMB1 was disabled. This was security migitation (EternalBlue/WannaCry/NotPetya) and Microsoft is doing the same in Windows 2016/2019/10[1][2]. In general, using SMB2/3 is good idea anyway, Linux distributions/Samba eventually enabled SMB1 only for client-side discovery, and you can still enable entire SMB1 if you need it for some reason - do you still have Windows 2003 someplace? [1] https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/josebda/2015/04/21/the-deprecation-of-smb1-you-should-be-planning-to-get-rid-of-this-old-smb-dialect/ https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/josebda/2015/04/21/the-d... [2] https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/storage-at-microsoft/stop-using-smb1/ba-p/425858 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/storage-at-microsoft/...
- nottorp 6y ago
  Sadly it's not the "shiny"... it's the fact that Mac OS has a GUI that works. Been using linux since the days you installed Slackware from floppies and recompiled your kernel to get drivers. Command line has always been a bliss, but no one has managed to come up with an usable and consistent GUI yet. Btw does sleep work on linux laptops these days? How's hi dpi support?
  - stilley2 6y ago
    When was the last time you gave KDE a try? I just switched from using a tiling window manager and was impressed by how much stuff "just works" and the degree of customizability.
    - konart 6y ago
      >the degree of customizability. That's part of the problem. Customizability is good, but in return you get inconsistency that you can't fix. And even if all system default apps looks the same (they still look horrible in my opinion), 90% of 3rd party apps look and feel different. You can hardly name a linux (qt or gtk) app that can be name elegant or at least thought through (UI wise). Almost all applications still look like they were build to be used on some factory terminal.
    - nottorp 6y ago
      Last time i used KDE for a significant amount of time, something was distracting. Then i realized what it was: the "system tray" icons were erasing themselves and then got redrawn one by one and readjusted their position with each redraw. Distracting as hell when you're trying to concentrate on the code in a nearby window. Mind, that was in 2013, and hopefully KDE has improved since then. Perhaps it has even reached the level KDE 3 was at? It's been downhill from there. Btw, I switched to Macs from running Linux with KDE as my desktop of choice full time.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    It is hard to improve things when everyone is on other platforms. I am mostly on Windows devices, and use a GNU/Linux aging netbook for travelling. In what concerns this Asus 1215B, everything works, with the exception that the open source AMD drivers were a downgrade from the binary blobs (OpenGL 4.1 => OpenGL 3.3 without video hardware decoding). However I still kept it around, because although I don't target GNU/Linux as part of my work, I wanted to give Asus the message that selling GNU/Linux laptops might be a relevant business. Eventually when it dies, I will be Windows/Android and occasionally macOS only user/developer, but I am not using any of these platforms to emulate GNU/Linux, I use them for their own value.

make3 6y ago

developer who uses MacOS != MacOS developer. I couldn't care less about what is announced at WWDC