11 ms·

Another way to look at it is that Apple is making it harder to run the system in an insecure fashion. You may not agree with that decision, but I certainly appr

Another way to look at it is that Apple is making it harder to run the system in an insecure fashion. You may not agree with that decision, but I certainly appreciate how Apple is looking out for the safety and security of the user. Tangent: as much as some developers hate that the only way to distribute apps for the iPhone is through the App Store, as a user I consider that walled garden of apps to be a real security benefit. When John Gruber says “If you must use Zoom or simply want to use it, I highly recommend using it on your iPad and iPhone only. The iOS version is sandboxed and reviewed by the App Store.” There’s a reason why he can say things like that and it’s because Apple draws a hard line in the sand that not everyone will be happy with.

43920 6y ago
Wouldn't a sandboxed Zoom downloaded directly from them be equally secure?
- Retric 6y ago
  Apple’s rejected a huge number of App updates for security reasons. It’s not a huge benefit, but it does exist.
  - cliffsteele 6y ago
    And also allowed a jailbreak app in the iOS App Store. Yes, it only happened once (that I know of), but it still shows you can't really be oblivious to their practices.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      So out of the millions of apps on the App Store, they slipped up once? Sounds like a really good success rate.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        That's just the one jailbreak that ended up in the news. There's been many other of bad things that have been pulled.
        cmdshiftf4 6y ago
        >been many other of bad things that have been pulled A jailbreak app making it to the app store being bad, and "apple's walled gardens are bad", are fundamentally incompatible.
        jasonlotito 6y ago
        Jailbreak apps are bad for Apple. Walled gardens are bad for users. It's not complicated.
        neotek 6y ago
        I, a user, am extremely appreciative of Apple's walled garden. I've never once had to worry that the app I'm downloading is crammed full of malware because I trust that Apple's processes are robust and will work well in 99.999% of all circumstances.
        davrosthedalek 6y ago
        A walled garden is not the same as a curated app store. You could have the same benefit if apple would allow non-app-store apps to be installed after flipping a switch, tethering with a Mac or some other voodoo.
        neotek 6y ago
        Apple does give you the ability to install non-app-store apps (some without tethering), e.g. sideloading or enterprise certificates, although I agree it's not as easy as flipping a switch. They should also provide a way to downgrade iOS via Xcode for those with a dev account, but that's another story.
- throwaway851 6y ago
  Yes, but would a typical user know or care if the app they downloaded from a web site was sandboxed and would otherwise have been approved by the App Store if it was submitted there? And if not, how could someone like John Gruber make that claim of safety on anything other than iPhone and iPad? Taking the Zoom example on a parent thread above, look at what happens when you’re installing a Zoom client on the Mac without the strict enforcements of the iOS App Store: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22736608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22736608
  - ken 6y ago
    This just doesn't seem like a terribly difficult problem. Web browsers have figured it out. Any webpage that isn't served over SSL says "Not Secure" right at the top. I can think of a dozen ways which the OS could prominently display "Not Secure" for non-sandboxed applications, in a way that wouldn't preclude or hinder users from using such applications if they really wanted to.
    - ithkuil 6y ago
      I wonder what's a decent way to do this with a CLI app
- zrm 6y ago
  > Wouldn't a sandboxed Zoom downloaded directly from them be equally secure? More relevantly, wouldn't a sandboxed Zoom downloaded from Apple's store be equally secure even if you could install different apps from developers you trust more outside of the store?
userbinator 6y ago
Another way to look at it is that Apple is making it harder to run the system in an insecure fashion. You may not agree with that decision, but I certainly appreciate how Apple is looking out for the safety and security of the user. "Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither." (Yes, I know the original intent was slightly different, but that old saying has gotten a lot more vivid recently, as companies are increasingly using the excuse of security to further their own interests and control over their users.) The ability to control exactly what millions of people can or cannot run on "their" computers is an authoritarian wet dream. People may think Apple's interests aligns with theirs --- but that is not a certainty. How many times have you been stopped from doing what you wanted to because of Apple? It might not be a lot so far, but can you break free from that relationship when/if it does turn against you?
- gowld 6y ago
  That’s not close to the original quote. And it was just Ben Franklin politicking, not the word of god.
  - deathgrips 6y ago
    No one cares, it's the concept that matters. This is on the same tier as saying "haha hey buddy looks like you typed 'there' instead of 'their' haha #rekt".
    - mikeyjk 6y ago
      > No one cares, it's the concept that matters. This is on the same tier as saying "haha hey buddy looks like you typed 'there' instead of 'their' haha #rekt". While the content / concept is the main point, facts matter. Even if it is ancillary to the intended message. Why suffer misinformation no matter how small?
- roenxi 6y ago
  The quote isn't at all relevant to technical decisions though. Eg, there is enforcement that a program can't arbitrarily access any RAM it likes on the same machine. That is trading freedom for security and it is a good trade. And there isn't really an argument against gatekeeping software - users as a body don't have time to verify that the software they use is secure. I'd be shocked if the median web developer even reads up on all the CVEs for their preferred libraries. Gatekeepers are an overwhelmingly good idea for typical don't-care everyday users. The issue is if it becomes practically impossible to move away from Apple to an alternative. Given that they have a pretty typical market share in absolute terms that doesn't seem like a risk right now. They don't even hold an absolute majority in what I assume is their strongest market, the US, let alone globally.
zanethomas 6y ago
Another way to look at it is that Apple is moving towards a future where all software for the mac must be purchased from the app store. Bubye Apple, my next machine will likely be a Dell Ubuntu.
- amatecha 6y ago
  Yeah, this is the future I've been foreseeing for years. Every new OS update just ever so slightly decreases your ability to control what software is on your device, and how you can use it. For example, you used to be able to back up your purchased iOS apps to your computer, and restore them from your computer. In one iOS update (9 IIRC?), they removed the ability to back up the apps from your phone. In a later iOS/iTunes update, they removed the ability to restore backed up apps from your computer, making your existing backed-up apps useless, if you still had them. Now, the only way to keep your software on your iPhone indefinitely is to never delete it, and never reformat your phone. Ohh and never update iOS because they will break backwards compatibility with apps you already have. For any app that is no longer supported by the developer, you're just out of luck (and I have purchased MANY such apps, being an iPhone user since 2009).
  - pietrovismara 6y ago
    If I may ask, why do you still persist with apple products then? Sounds like masochism from here...
    - amatecha 6y ago
      I have no intention of buying more at this point. The last was the iPhone 8 in 2017. No clue yet what I'll do in the future for a smartphone, because I don't see Android as an option at all. Hopefully this iPhone 8 lasts forever :)
      - pietrovismara 6y ago
        Personally I find smartphones less and less useful. I use them mostly to stay in touch with people or to read articles online, and I do all my work from a laptop anyway. I used to buy flagship Android phones but I realized that it's wasted money. Now I have a 200€ Samsung phone, it works fine, yesterday it fell and the screen glass broke a bit, I couldn't care less. If I keep going at this rate, I think I will quit smartphones within a few years.
api 6y ago
The problem is that there is more than one market here. There is a general market where people love the vendor looking after their security and doing things for them, and there is a pro/hacker market where people want to control things themselves and dont want a lot of this stuff.
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  This. Yes the option of a walled garden is a great thing and I wouldn't recommend anything but an Apple device to my non-technical relatives. But if Apple also wants to make the $$ that comes from selling "pro" gear, they need to stop relentlessly consumerizing and turning OS X into iOS. I don't think they realize the level of ill will they are engendering in the developer/pro market. Perhaps it's time for a "Pro" and "Home" Mac OS.
  - warrenm 6y ago
    Methinks you don't grok how Apple uses the term ”Pro”
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      It comes in Space Gray?
      - warrenm 6y ago
        Sigh No - it's for people who want to Get Stuff Done™ and not worry about all the crap under the hood.
  - saila 6y ago
    I've been doing software development on macOS/OS X for quite some time now and the consumerization aspects don't bother me. I install almost everything I need via Homebrew, from software libraries to desktops apps, and the fact that there's an App Store isn't particularly relevant (although I do use it for consumer apps now and then). I'm trying to think of how macOS is so different from 10/20 years ago. What's missing? What can I not do now? Maybe my brain has just been consumerized and I forgot something important. I was going to switch to Linux 10 years ago when people were talking about the iOSification of OS X back then, but that never happened.
ibeckermayer 6y ago
Why can’t they have their walled garden App Store and also allow me to install other app stores? It’s an authoritarian usurpation of the spirit of property rights. I should be able to decide for myself what software to run on my hardware, Apple HQ’s opinion should be irrelevant.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  On macOS, they do. On a phone, if you want to side load, there’s the option of Android.
- jerryzh 6y ago
  Why would any developer even want to release their app in walled garden when they can do whatever they want by releasing elsewhere?
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Usually on the walled garden they get paid.
  - pinopinopino 6y ago
    Analogue question in the linux world: Why would anyone get something in the debian package repository, when they can just release their package on their website? Because it gets added support, a bigger reach and a safer and easier installation for users?
    - vbezhenar 6y ago
      There are special people: maintainers. They collect software from the world and package them for Debian. They often are different from original developers. Original developers might not even know that their software was repackaged. It's possible because of free software licenses. Apple can't do that even if they would want: proprietary software typically does not allow redistribution.
      - 6y ago
markdown 6y ago
Who is this Gruber person you quote and why is he relevant here?
- AlchemistCamp 6y ago
  He's the person who made the markdown format, which you've used as your username. Other than that, he's mostly known for writing and talking about Apple.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - markdown 6y ago
    > He's the person who made the markdown format, which you've used as your username. That's news to me. My username is my name plus down (I use up for work-related accounts, and down for leisure). > Other than that, he's mostly known for writing and talking about Apple. Ahh, ok thanks.
gameswithgo 6y ago
if gruber wants to dictate what i run on my computer maybe he can pay for my computer instead of me.
beowulfey 6y ago
I don’t really understand this argument. Apple has long been heralded for its safety and security. It’s why in three decades of owning macs we’ve never installed antivirus software. What is the point of all this security these days? What are they protecting us from?

43920 6y ago

Wouldn't a sandboxed Zoom downloaded directly from them be equally secure?

Retric 6y ago
Apple’s rejected a huge number of App updates for security reasons. It’s not a huge benefit, but it does exist.
- cliffsteele 6y ago
  And also allowed a jailbreak app in the iOS App Store. Yes, it only happened once (that I know of), but it still shows you can't really be oblivious to their practices.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    So out of the millions of apps on the App Store, they slipped up once? Sounds like a really good success rate.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      That's just the one jailbreak that ended up in the news. There's been many other of bad things that have been pulled.
      - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
        >been many other of bad things that have been pulled A jailbreak app making it to the app store being bad, and "apple's walled gardens are bad", are fundamentally incompatible.
        jasonlotito 6y ago
        Jailbreak apps are bad for Apple. Walled gardens are bad for users. It's not complicated.
        neotek 6y ago
        I, a user, am extremely appreciative of Apple's walled garden. I've never once had to worry that the app I'm downloading is crammed full of malware because I trust that Apple's processes are robust and will work well in 99.999% of all circumstances.
        davrosthedalek 6y ago
        A walled garden is not the same as a curated app store. You could have the same benefit if apple would allow non-app-store apps to be installed after flipping a switch, tethering with a Mac or some other voodoo.
        neotek 6y ago
        Apple does give you the ability to install non-app-store apps (some without tethering), e.g. sideloading or enterprise certificates, although I agree it's not as easy as flipping a switch. They should also provide a way to downgrade iOS via Xcode for those with a dev account, but that's another story.
throwaway851 6y ago
Yes, but would a typical user know or care if the app they downloaded from a web site was sandboxed and would otherwise have been approved by the App Store if it was submitted there? And if not, how could someone like John Gruber make that claim of safety on anything other than iPhone and iPad? Taking the Zoom example on a parent thread above, look at what happens when you’re installing a Zoom client on the Mac without the strict enforcements of the iOS App Store: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22736608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22736608
- ken 6y ago
  This just doesn't seem like a terribly difficult problem. Web browsers have figured it out. Any webpage that isn't served over SSL says "Not Secure" right at the top. I can think of a dozen ways which the OS could prominently display "Not Secure" for non-sandboxed applications, in a way that wouldn't preclude or hinder users from using such applications if they really wanted to.
  - ithkuil 6y ago
    I wonder what's a decent way to do this with a CLI app
zrm 6y ago
> Wouldn't a sandboxed Zoom downloaded directly from them be equally secure? More relevantly, wouldn't a sandboxed Zoom downloaded from Apple's store be equally secure even if you could install different apps from developers you trust more outside of the store?

userbinator 6y ago

Another way to look at it is that Apple is making it harder to run the system in an insecure fashion. You may not agree with that decision, but I certainly appreciate how Apple is looking out for the safety and security of the user. "Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither." (Yes, I know the original intent was slightly different, but that old saying has gotten a lot more vivid recently, as companies are increasingly using the excuse of security to further their own interests and control over their users.) The ability to control exactly what millions of people can or cannot run on "their" computers is an authoritarian wet dream. People may think Apple's interests aligns with theirs --- but that is not a certainty. How many times have you been stopped from doing what you wanted to because of Apple? It might not be a lot so far, but can you break free from that relationship when/if it does turn against you?

gowld 6y ago
That’s not close to the original quote. And it was just Ben Franklin politicking, not the word of god.
- deathgrips 6y ago
  No one cares, it's the concept that matters. This is on the same tier as saying "haha hey buddy looks like you typed 'there' instead of 'their' haha #rekt".
  - mikeyjk 6y ago
    > No one cares, it's the concept that matters. This is on the same tier as saying "haha hey buddy looks like you typed 'there' instead of 'their' haha #rekt". While the content / concept is the main point, facts matter. Even if it is ancillary to the intended message. Why suffer misinformation no matter how small?
roenxi 6y ago
The quote isn't at all relevant to technical decisions though. Eg, there is enforcement that a program can't arbitrarily access any RAM it likes on the same machine. That is trading freedom for security and it is a good trade. And there isn't really an argument against gatekeeping software - users as a body don't have time to verify that the software they use is secure. I'd be shocked if the median web developer even reads up on all the CVEs for their preferred libraries. Gatekeepers are an overwhelmingly good idea for typical don't-care everyday users. The issue is if it becomes practically impossible to move away from Apple to an alternative. Given that they have a pretty typical market share in absolute terms that doesn't seem like a risk right now. They don't even hold an absolute majority in what I assume is their strongest market, the US, let alone globally.

zanethomas 6y ago

Another way to look at it is that Apple is moving towards a future where all software for the mac must be purchased from the app store. Bubye Apple, my next machine will likely be a Dell Ubuntu.

amatecha 6y ago
Yeah, this is the future I've been foreseeing for years. Every new OS update just ever so slightly decreases your ability to control what software is on your device, and how you can use it. For example, you used to be able to back up your purchased iOS apps to your computer, and restore them from your computer. In one iOS update (9 IIRC?), they removed the ability to back up the apps from your phone. In a later iOS/iTunes update, they removed the ability to restore backed up apps from your computer, making your existing backed-up apps useless, if you still had them. Now, the only way to keep your software on your iPhone indefinitely is to never delete it, and never reformat your phone. Ohh and never update iOS because they will break backwards compatibility with apps you already have. For any app that is no longer supported by the developer, you're just out of luck (and I have purchased MANY such apps, being an iPhone user since 2009).
- pietrovismara 6y ago
  If I may ask, why do you still persist with apple products then? Sounds like masochism from here...
  - amatecha 6y ago
    I have no intention of buying more at this point. The last was the iPhone 8 in 2017. No clue yet what I'll do in the future for a smartphone, because I don't see Android as an option at all. Hopefully this iPhone 8 lasts forever :)
    - pietrovismara 6y ago
      Personally I find smartphones less and less useful. I use them mostly to stay in touch with people or to read articles online, and I do all my work from a laptop anyway. I used to buy flagship Android phones but I realized that it's wasted money. Now I have a 200€ Samsung phone, it works fine, yesterday it fell and the screen glass broke a bit, I couldn't care less. If I keep going at this rate, I think I will quit smartphones within a few years.

api 6y ago

The problem is that there is more than one market here. There is a general market where people love the vendor looking after their security and doing things for them, and there is a pro/hacker market where people want to control things themselves and dont want a lot of this stuff.

rsj_hn 6y ago
This. Yes the option of a walled garden is a great thing and I wouldn't recommend anything but an Apple device to my non-technical relatives. But if Apple also wants to make the $$ that comes from selling "pro" gear, they need to stop relentlessly consumerizing and turning OS X into iOS. I don't think they realize the level of ill will they are engendering in the developer/pro market. Perhaps it's time for a "Pro" and "Home" Mac OS.
- warrenm 6y ago
  Methinks you don't grok how Apple uses the term ”Pro”
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    It comes in Space Gray?
    - warrenm 6y ago
      Sigh No - it's for people who want to Get Stuff Done™ and not worry about all the crap under the hood.
- saila 6y ago
  I've been doing software development on macOS/OS X for quite some time now and the consumerization aspects don't bother me. I install almost everything I need via Homebrew, from software libraries to desktops apps, and the fact that there's an App Store isn't particularly relevant (although I do use it for consumer apps now and then). I'm trying to think of how macOS is so different from 10/20 years ago. What's missing? What can I not do now? Maybe my brain has just been consumerized and I forgot something important. I was going to switch to Linux 10 years ago when people were talking about the iOSification of OS X back then, but that never happened.

ibeckermayer 6y ago

Why can’t they have their walled garden App Store and also allow me to install other app stores? It’s an authoritarian usurpation of the spirit of property rights. I should be able to decide for myself what software to run on my hardware, Apple HQ’s opinion should be irrelevant.

colejohnson66 6y ago
On macOS, they do. On a phone, if you want to side load, there’s the option of Android.
jerryzh 6y ago
Why would any developer even want to release their app in walled garden when they can do whatever they want by releasing elsewhere?
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Usually on the walled garden they get paid.
- pinopinopino 6y ago
  Analogue question in the linux world: Why would anyone get something in the debian package repository, when they can just release their package on their website? Because it gets added support, a bigger reach and a safer and easier installation for users?
  - vbezhenar 6y ago
    There are special people: maintainers. They collect software from the world and package them for Debian. They often are different from original developers. Original developers might not even know that their software was repackaged. It's possible because of free software licenses. Apple can't do that even if they would want: proprietary software typically does not allow redistribution.
    - 6y ago

markdown 6y ago

Who is this Gruber person you quote and why is he relevant here?

AlchemistCamp 6y ago
He's the person who made the markdown format, which you've used as your username. Other than that, he's mostly known for writing and talking about Apple.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- markdown 6y ago
  > He's the person who made the markdown format, which you've used as your username. That's news to me. My username is my name plus down (I use up for work-related accounts, and down for leisure). > Other than that, he's mostly known for writing and talking about Apple. Ahh, ok thanks.

gameswithgo 6y ago

if gruber wants to dictate what i run on my computer maybe he can pay for my computer instead of me.

beowulfey 6y ago

I don’t really understand this argument. Apple has long been heralded for its safety and security. It’s why in three decades of owning macs we’ve never installed antivirus software. What is the point of all this security these days? What are they protecting us from?