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Yeah, I agree with this 100% - these students are going to be compared to each other somehow, and it's always going to be imperfect and favor those who are bett

Yeah, I agree with this 100% - these students are going to be compared to each other somehow, and it's always going to be imperfect and favor those who are better off. Still, these tests are at least relatively objective, and if you remove them the kids will be compared with less objective measures that allow for more bias to be introduced. The SAT/ACT are the worst form of college admission criteria very much in the same way that democracy is the worst form of government... except for all the others. A lot of people criticize them, but those critics haven't come up with anything better.

Shoue 6y ago
Finland, often touted as the best in education, does not use SAT. The same can be said for many other European countries with excellent education. Are you implying there is no correlation? Have you looked at their systems before making a claim such as "haven't come up with anything better"?
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Finland has its own national exam. Many European countries have something like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriculation_exam_(Finland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriculation_exam_(Finland)
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  Would you mind explaining the difference? From a perfunctory search online it looks like Finland also has a system of university entrance exams (although of course theirs aren't called the SAT)
- awillen 6y ago
  I'm obviously speaking about the SAT/ACT in the context of the US system. The entire Finnish education system is extremely different than the one in the US - to say that they don't use the SAT and have better educational outcomes while ignoring everything else is just not a valid comparison. It would be equally valid to say "Finland teaches school in Finnish and they have better outcomes, so we should be teaching school in Finnish!"
  - geomark 6y ago
    There some people who assert that it is in fact the Finnish language that gives them an advantage in early schooling, that the language is much more regular and easier to learn that it gives school children something like a 2 year advantage over English learners. Not disagreeing with you at all. Just wanted to point out another facet of the debate.
    - Mirioron 6y ago
      It's an interesting idea. The other major language similar to Finnish is Estonian. Recently Estonia has been above Finland in PISA results, but I am still extremely skeptical of this idea. From a grammar standpoint I'm not sure that Finnish is actually easier to learn than English.
      - larkost 6y ago
        The other similar language to Finnish is Hungarian (that and a language spoken in Mongolia). My wife is Hungarian, so I have some exposure and I think the grammar is probably simpler in some ways (no "perfect" tenses for example), it is the spelling that probably would push it over the line. Spelling in English is an atrocious amalgam of contributions from a number of languages. My son is learning that in school so I am getting a front-row seat to that (especially given me out of work and remote schooling). He is constantly running into places where the rule he just learned does not apply. Oddly, I have heard the argument before that Japanese and Chinese students are at an advantage due to the complexity of writing their languages. The argument being that their brans are being trained by that to work harder. I am not sure I buy either argument.
        geomark 6y ago
        There is a somewhat related argument that kids who grow up bilingual also get a harder brain workout that initially slows their language learning due to having to parse two languages but later gives them an advantage. I think maybe, but seems really hard to measure something like that. My kid is growing up bilingual, with English his stronger language. We both grouch about the "atrocious amalgam of contributions" that is the English language when he wants an explanation why the words 'rough', 'though', 'through', 'thought' and 'plough' all have different pronunciations.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  I have never heard of Finland being touted as the best in education, especially not at the college or post-graduate levels. What many countries do, unlike the US, is having life-defining entrance exams. Unlike the SAT/ACT which are just one factor of many, these tests determine whether a student gets in to a university or not. The SAT may not be a great test, but at least it's not the sole factor in determining admission. It's absolutely better than what most European systems use.
  - distances 6y ago
    > I have never heard of Finland being touted as the best in education, especially not at the college or post-graduate levels. Finland has been the poster child in pre-university education now for almost two decades due to the good PISA results. Maybe less so recently as Finland's results have been in a slight decline.
- anon102010 6y ago
  Most european countries use very comprehsensive exams that govern not only admission into top universities, but are tied into being able to get a job AT ALL in a certain profession. Basically - the countries have a number of slots for a profession they are looking to fill or that they expect demand for. They create that many university places that create eligibility for the position. Getting into these spots can be ridiculously difficult and the standardized exam is weighed MUCH MUCH more heavily than in the US (with it's "holistic" approach). Whether or not this merit based / tracking based approach (which actually starts earlier in high school and before for many countries) is what leads to excellent outcomes is a question. But the tradeoff with free education is that the really expensive education has lots of criteria before you get it for free.
- anon102010 6y ago
  False by the way - Finland uses SAT a fair bit (often a minimum SAT is needed to even apply, ie, 500/500) if you didn't sit their entrance exams. Spots are awarded very heavily based on points that anyone can calculate. "Admission to the LAB University of Applied Sciences is dependent on scores earned either in the entrance examination or in SAT-test. Eligibility in itself does not yet guarantee admission. Student selection will be a competitive process in which the best Finnish degree certificates or entrance examination results or SAT results produce a place of study. See the studyinfo.fi -page for more information about student selection. The applicant with the highest points score will be offered the first place, the second highest will be offered the second place, and so on until all places available have been offered. In cases of equal minimum admission scores applicants will be ranked on the following ground: all students with the same score will be selected."
- bananabreakfast 6y ago
  European entrance exams, including Finland's, are far, far worse than the SAT. They are much more serious and shape one's life far more and enforce systemic bias to much higher extreme.
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    I don't have direct experience but I think the whole system in Europe is designed to irrevocably pigeon hole students very early in the game. If I remember California State Colleges have a bunch of placement tests to gauge what level of classes to put beginning students in. I think I'd be happier with a system that throws a net wide and than deals with the result on an as needed basis. Than a hyper meritocratic system that excludes large segments of society.
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      > the whole system in Europe Pet peeve: There is no European system. At least every country has their own unique system.
      - Gibbon1 6y ago
        So whats your point here?
        njonesuk 6y ago
        That your statement about "the whole European system" is factually incorrect, because every single country takes their own approach, and there are huge variations between them. Trying to tar the whole of Europe with one brush would be like Europeans conflating the US education system with Paraguay and Ecuador because it's the "whole American system".
        Gibbon1 6y ago
        So whats your point here?
- pnako 6y ago
  In France, you have special schools (classes préparatoires) where you spend 2 years after high school just to prepare the entrance exam of the most competitive schools. The entrance exam can last for a week, with two 4-hour exams a day, and is marked anonymously. They don't care that you were the captain of the fencing team or can play harmonica.
jsanford9292 6y ago
Wow. I read this news on Twitter first and immediately thought what you so eloquently wrote above (even so far as comparing the imperfect measure to democracy or capitalism). Except I didn't find a single representation of this view on Twitter. When I come to HN I actually become more optimistic for the future of the world. Thank you.
zajio1am 6y ago
Here the common strategy for STEM degree programmes is to admit most people and then make first year hard enough that e.g. 2/3 of students are eliminated. In some sense it is more fair than strict admission criteria.
- rvp-x 6y ago
  I can see a future cynical me talking about how brutal it is to lure poor students and have them take loans to pay first year tuition only to kick them out a year later with nothing to show for it, if they're not the top 1/3 for some reason.
  - SiempreViernes 6y ago
    This is in the context of a free education system, the only thing the poor students loose is a bit of time.
    - ajsnigrutin 6y ago
      A year is A LOT of time, and you have to explain why you lost a year later on. Also, even in "free" education systems, some taxpayer is going to ask "why the hell am I paying for 2/3 of crappy students, can't you just raise the bar at the beginning, and only accept the top 1/3?"
      - zajio1am 6y ago
        It is not that they do not learn anything during that year. Also, many of them later got admitted to some 'easier' school and got their credits transferred.
      - newbie578 6y ago
        A year is a lot? Then what is 5 years, a lifetime? Let's not fool ourselves, a year is NOTHING, it passes as soon as it arrives. There is nothing bad with people "loosing" a year or two, or perhaps even more. In an ever more pacing world, we should readjust and look back, some might "sacrifice" a year, but they also learn valuable experience so not all is lost. Today, when people's work time can last 50 years easily, what is a year or more? Let people "search for themselves". Let them try out the hard things, let them explore and value experience, realize if something is for them or isn't. In the end, we learn most from our mistakes, not successes.
fma 6y ago
The devil you know is better than the devil you dont. SAT and ACT has been around for so long, I think college admissions can account for deviations to a certain extent.

Shoue 6y ago

Finland, often touted as the best in education, does not use SAT. The same can be said for many other European countries with excellent education. Are you implying there is no correlation? Have you looked at their systems before making a claim such as "haven't come up with anything better"?

MattGaiser 6y ago
Finland has its own national exam. Many European countries have something like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriculation_exam_(Finland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriculation_exam_(Finland)
Rebelgecko 6y ago
Would you mind explaining the difference? From a perfunctory search online it looks like Finland also has a system of university entrance exams (although of course theirs aren't called the SAT)
awillen 6y ago
I'm obviously speaking about the SAT/ACT in the context of the US system. The entire Finnish education system is extremely different than the one in the US - to say that they don't use the SAT and have better educational outcomes while ignoring everything else is just not a valid comparison. It would be equally valid to say "Finland teaches school in Finnish and they have better outcomes, so we should be teaching school in Finnish!"
- geomark 6y ago
  There some people who assert that it is in fact the Finnish language that gives them an advantage in early schooling, that the language is much more regular and easier to learn that it gives school children something like a 2 year advantage over English learners. Not disagreeing with you at all. Just wanted to point out another facet of the debate.
  - Mirioron 6y ago
    It's an interesting idea. The other major language similar to Finnish is Estonian. Recently Estonia has been above Finland in PISA results, but I am still extremely skeptical of this idea. From a grammar standpoint I'm not sure that Finnish is actually easier to learn than English.
    - larkost 6y ago
      The other similar language to Finnish is Hungarian (that and a language spoken in Mongolia). My wife is Hungarian, so I have some exposure and I think the grammar is probably simpler in some ways (no "perfect" tenses for example), it is the spelling that probably would push it over the line. Spelling in English is an atrocious amalgam of contributions from a number of languages. My son is learning that in school so I am getting a front-row seat to that (especially given me out of work and remote schooling). He is constantly running into places where the rule he just learned does not apply. Oddly, I have heard the argument before that Japanese and Chinese students are at an advantage due to the complexity of writing their languages. The argument being that their brans are being trained by that to work harder. I am not sure I buy either argument.
      - geomark 6y ago
        There is a somewhat related argument that kids who grow up bilingual also get a harder brain workout that initially slows their language learning due to having to parse two languages but later gives them an advantage. I think maybe, but seems really hard to measure something like that. My kid is growing up bilingual, with English his stronger language. We both grouch about the "atrocious amalgam of contributions" that is the English language when he wants an explanation why the words 'rough', 'though', 'through', 'thought' and 'plough' all have different pronunciations.
gamblor956 6y ago
I have never heard of Finland being touted as the best in education, especially not at the college or post-graduate levels. What many countries do, unlike the US, is having life-defining entrance exams. Unlike the SAT/ACT which are just one factor of many, these tests determine whether a student gets in to a university or not. The SAT may not be a great test, but at least it's not the sole factor in determining admission. It's absolutely better than what most European systems use.
- distances 6y ago
  > I have never heard of Finland being touted as the best in education, especially not at the college or post-graduate levels. Finland has been the poster child in pre-university education now for almost two decades due to the good PISA results. Maybe less so recently as Finland's results have been in a slight decline.
anon102010 6y ago
Most european countries use very comprehsensive exams that govern not only admission into top universities, but are tied into being able to get a job AT ALL in a certain profession. Basically - the countries have a number of slots for a profession they are looking to fill or that they expect demand for. They create that many university places that create eligibility for the position. Getting into these spots can be ridiculously difficult and the standardized exam is weighed MUCH MUCH more heavily than in the US (with it's "holistic" approach). Whether or not this merit based / tracking based approach (which actually starts earlier in high school and before for many countries) is what leads to excellent outcomes is a question. But the tradeoff with free education is that the really expensive education has lots of criteria before you get it for free.
anon102010 6y ago
False by the way - Finland uses SAT a fair bit (often a minimum SAT is needed to even apply, ie, 500/500) if you didn't sit their entrance exams. Spots are awarded very heavily based on points that anyone can calculate. "Admission to the LAB University of Applied Sciences is dependent on scores earned either in the entrance examination or in SAT-test. Eligibility in itself does not yet guarantee admission. Student selection will be a competitive process in which the best Finnish degree certificates or entrance examination results or SAT results produce a place of study. See the studyinfo.fi -page for more information about student selection. The applicant with the highest points score will be offered the first place, the second highest will be offered the second place, and so on until all places available have been offered. In cases of equal minimum admission scores applicants will be ranked on the following ground: all students with the same score will be selected."
bananabreakfast 6y ago
European entrance exams, including Finland's, are far, far worse than the SAT. They are much more serious and shape one's life far more and enforce systemic bias to much higher extreme.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  I don't have direct experience but I think the whole system in Europe is designed to irrevocably pigeon hole students very early in the game. If I remember California State Colleges have a bunch of placement tests to gauge what level of classes to put beginning students in. I think I'd be happier with a system that throws a net wide and than deals with the result on an as needed basis. Than a hyper meritocratic system that excludes large segments of society.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    > the whole system in Europe Pet peeve: There is no European system. At least every country has their own unique system.
    - Gibbon1 6y ago
      So whats your point here?
      - njonesuk 6y ago
        That your statement about "the whole European system" is factually incorrect, because every single country takes their own approach, and there are huge variations between them. Trying to tar the whole of Europe with one brush would be like Europeans conflating the US education system with Paraguay and Ecuador because it's the "whole American system".
        Gibbon1 6y ago
        So whats your point here?
pnako 6y ago
In France, you have special schools (classes préparatoires) where you spend 2 years after high school just to prepare the entrance exam of the most competitive schools. The entrance exam can last for a week, with two 4-hour exams a day, and is marked anonymously. They don't care that you were the captain of the fencing team or can play harmonica.

jsanford9292 6y ago

Wow. I read this news on Twitter first and immediately thought what you so eloquently wrote above (even so far as comparing the imperfect measure to democracy or capitalism). Except I didn't find a single representation of this view on Twitter. When I come to HN I actually become more optimistic for the future of the world. Thank you.

zajio1am 6y ago

Here the common strategy for STEM degree programmes is to admit most people and then make first year hard enough that e.g. 2/3 of students are eliminated. In some sense it is more fair than strict admission criteria.

rvp-x 6y ago
I can see a future cynical me talking about how brutal it is to lure poor students and have them take loans to pay first year tuition only to kick them out a year later with nothing to show for it, if they're not the top 1/3 for some reason.
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  This is in the context of a free education system, the only thing the poor students loose is a bit of time.
  - ajsnigrutin 6y ago
    A year is A LOT of time, and you have to explain why you lost a year later on. Also, even in "free" education systems, some taxpayer is going to ask "why the hell am I paying for 2/3 of crappy students, can't you just raise the bar at the beginning, and only accept the top 1/3?"
    - zajio1am 6y ago
      It is not that they do not learn anything during that year. Also, many of them later got admitted to some 'easier' school and got their credits transferred.
    - newbie578 6y ago
      A year is a lot? Then what is 5 years, a lifetime? Let's not fool ourselves, a year is NOTHING, it passes as soon as it arrives. There is nothing bad with people "loosing" a year or two, or perhaps even more. In an ever more pacing world, we should readjust and look back, some might "sacrifice" a year, but they also learn valuable experience so not all is lost. Today, when people's work time can last 50 years easily, what is a year or more? Let people "search for themselves". Let them try out the hard things, let them explore and value experience, realize if something is for them or isn't. In the end, we learn most from our mistakes, not successes.

fma 6y ago

The devil you know is better than the devil you dont. SAT and ACT has been around for so long, I think college admissions can account for deviations to a certain extent.