5 ms·

> Lagos or Jakarta salary This is fear mongering to say the least. Nobody is stopping those companies hiring from the said regions today. And it is super unlik

> Lagos or Jakarta salary This is fear mongering to say the least. Nobody is stopping those companies hiring from the said regions today. And it is super unlikely western engineers would want to relocate to the said regions given the choice. Let's all admit outsourcing is a thing and it has been for more than 20 years. The reason outsourcing is dialed back is much more interesting to understand, and offers insight from perspective other than costs. The high CoL in Bay Area is not sustainable. Software engineering is already democratized in a way, Bay Area no longer holds monopoly. The high salary here is a reflection of prosperity of past decade of internet bloom, but there is no momentum to keep it that way as the party will end never-the-less eventually. If anything, I see those remote working as a welcoming trend, to redistribute tech talents and money across US/Canada. Yes, the salary will go down, but it probably reflect better the reality we are already living.

fnord77 6y ago
The bay area is unique in that it has two major research universities where a lot of computer science was developed. Berkeley and Stanford will continue to drive innovation.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  And yet the collegiate programming contests includes high performing computer science schools from every region. You can raise an incredible programmer from Wisconsin, Colorado, Texas, Virginia, and Ohio just fine.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Innovation is not generally about hiring people who are really good at programming contests.
    - t-writescode 6y ago
      Does it have to come from schools that are known for what they did 40 years ago?
  - sshwhisper 6y ago
    Ohio and vietnam and russia and bulgaria. Let's add to the list. People who have moved to costlier cities have done it at a significant cost and sacrificies. Making it all decentralized can potentially cause large harm to those individuals. It'll boil down to completing with countries that have large human capital. Clearly USA is not a winner there. Talk about jobs being taken by people living in Bangladesh/pakistan/Indonesia and other highly populated countries.
    - t-writescode 6y ago
      Well, I have had Russian coworkers and coworkers from South East Asia, so it would seem I already have competed with them. edit: I see you've modified your post, I'll update mine, too: > People who have moved to costlier cities have done it at a significant cost and sacrificies They're all welcome to return to the places they want to be. We often encourage people in dying towns to move elsewhere to find work or sustainable living. The people that have made 250k+ a year can do that, too. > Talk about jobs being taken by people living in Bangladesh/pakistan/Indonesia and other highly populated countries. I see the argument here; but, I don't expect it will be nearly as bad as is said. The platform may certainly change; but, there are still reasonably-sized development teams in countries that do their own thing. Further, a deep understanding of a given culture is very useful when developing software for them, or working with them as a team. We will become more global, certainly; but, there will still be advantages for US companies to pay for US developers: culture. Also, working hours. I had enough struggle on a team with a 3 hour difference in working hours. Having a team with members in Europe (7-8 hour difference from Pacific Time Zone) or India (13 hour difference) has a real impact on productivity that shouldn't be overlooked, unless the whole operation is moved elsewhere But if the whole operation is moved elsewhere, what are all the developers in the United States and similar going to do? They'll probably start their own companies (yes, probably at diminished wages) and produce their own products; and, recognizing the job losses they've seen to skilled, overseas competitors, they may choose to prefer to hire relatively local employees, and the whole cycle may start again. I believe the assumption that it will fully swing to 100% of development being out of the country is misguided. Microsoft might not hire Silicon Valley or other US engineers; and, Facebook might not; but Stellar Games Interactive and the next "YNAB" or FreshBooks might.

fnord77 6y ago

The bay area is unique in that it has two major research universities where a lot of computer science was developed. Berkeley and Stanford will continue to drive innovation.

t-writescode 6y ago
And yet the collegiate programming contests includes high performing computer science schools from every region. You can raise an incredible programmer from Wisconsin, Colorado, Texas, Virginia, and Ohio just fine.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Innovation is not generally about hiring people who are really good at programming contests.
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    Does it have to come from schools that are known for what they did 40 years ago?
- sshwhisper 6y ago
  Ohio and vietnam and russia and bulgaria. Let's add to the list. People who have moved to costlier cities have done it at a significant cost and sacrificies. Making it all decentralized can potentially cause large harm to those individuals. It'll boil down to completing with countries that have large human capital. Clearly USA is not a winner there. Talk about jobs being taken by people living in Bangladesh/pakistan/Indonesia and other highly populated countries.
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    Well, I have had Russian coworkers and coworkers from South East Asia, so it would seem I already have competed with them. edit: I see you've modified your post, I'll update mine, too: > People who have moved to costlier cities have done it at a significant cost and sacrificies They're all welcome to return to the places they want to be. We often encourage people in dying towns to move elsewhere to find work or sustainable living. The people that have made 250k+ a year can do that, too. > Talk about jobs being taken by people living in Bangladesh/pakistan/Indonesia and other highly populated countries. I see the argument here; but, I don't expect it will be nearly as bad as is said. The platform may certainly change; but, there are still reasonably-sized development teams in countries that do their own thing. Further, a deep understanding of a given culture is very useful when developing software for them, or working with them as a team. We will become more global, certainly; but, there will still be advantages for US companies to pay for US developers: culture. Also, working hours. I had enough struggle on a team with a 3 hour difference in working hours. Having a team with members in Europe (7-8 hour difference from Pacific Time Zone) or India (13 hour difference) has a real impact on productivity that shouldn't be overlooked, unless the whole operation is moved elsewhere But if the whole operation is moved elsewhere, what are all the developers in the United States and similar going to do? They'll probably start their own companies (yes, probably at diminished wages) and produce their own products; and, recognizing the job losses they've seen to skilled, overseas competitors, they may choose to prefer to hire relatively local employees, and the whole cycle may start again. I believe the assumption that it will fully swing to 100% of development being out of the country is misguided. Microsoft might not hire Silicon Valley or other US engineers; and, Facebook might not; but Stellar Games Interactive and the next "YNAB" or FreshBooks might.