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The UK is weak (both in terms of their collective mentality and their influence on international politics), and they have an aggressive self-hate over their his

The UK is weak (both in terms of their collective mentality and their influence on international politics), and they have an aggressive self-hate over their history of successful colonization efforts. This is what they decided they wanted for Hong Kong - they knew what would happen when they voluntarily ceded control of HK to China.

ericmay 6y ago
> This is what they decided they wanted for Hong Kong Historical revisionism much? China was prepared to come and take Hong Kong, the only thing that preserved the current state was a deal that allowed China to save face. The U.K. had no ability to defend Hong Kong - they actually got a much better deal than could have been expected, with China worrying about its international reputation at the time. The Chinese could have walked right in to Hong Kong and taken it much, much more quickly.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  The fact that China might have come in shooting doesn't make it any less of a choice. If they had thought it was critically important to maintain democracy in Hong Kong, they wouldn't have agreed to a 50 year phase-out, they would have simply demanded democracy forever and set up a government in exile if the tanks rolled in.
  - ericmay 6y ago
    What good is a government in exile going to do? The 50 year phase out at least kept Hong Kong democratic for awhile so people could normalize it and expect and demand it, versus has China just rolled in many people would have died and they wouldn’t have enjoyed democracy at all.
  - mannykannot 6y ago
    As there was no realistic possibility of the course of action you advise preventing, as you put it, the tanks rolling in, you are suggesting there should have been a no-deal "brexit" from Hong Kong with the establishment of a government-in-exile. As it happens, there has been a Chinese government-in-exile in Taiwan since 1949. Its practical influence on the governance of China itself since then has been zero to two decimal places, and is unlikely to increase in the future. I am not at all sanguine about China's oligarchy, either for Hong Kong or the world, but geopolitical fantasies are just a way of avoiding facing the facts.
mannykannot 6y ago
Britain did not get what it wanted, either for itself or the people of Hong Kong. What it got was what it was able to negotiate, and, given its weak position, it wasn't just a sell-out.

ericmay 6y ago

> This is what they decided they wanted for Hong Kong Historical revisionism much? China was prepared to come and take Hong Kong, the only thing that preserved the current state was a deal that allowed China to save face. The U.K. had no ability to defend Hong Kong - they actually got a much better deal than could have been expected, with China worrying about its international reputation at the time. The Chinese could have walked right in to Hong Kong and taken it much, much more quickly.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
The fact that China might have come in shooting doesn't make it any less of a choice. If they had thought it was critically important to maintain democracy in Hong Kong, they wouldn't have agreed to a 50 year phase-out, they would have simply demanded democracy forever and set up a government in exile if the tanks rolled in.
- ericmay 6y ago
  What good is a government in exile going to do? The 50 year phase out at least kept Hong Kong democratic for awhile so people could normalize it and expect and demand it, versus has China just rolled in many people would have died and they wouldn’t have enjoyed democracy at all.
- mannykannot 6y ago
  As there was no realistic possibility of the course of action you advise preventing, as you put it, the tanks rolling in, you are suggesting there should have been a no-deal "brexit" from Hong Kong with the establishment of a government-in-exile. As it happens, there has been a Chinese government-in-exile in Taiwan since 1949. Its practical influence on the governance of China itself since then has been zero to two decimal places, and is unlikely to increase in the future. I am not at all sanguine about China's oligarchy, either for Hong Kong or the world, but geopolitical fantasies are just a way of avoiding facing the facts.

mannykannot 6y ago

Britain did not get what it wanted, either for itself or the people of Hong Kong. What it got was what it was able to negotiate, and, given its weak position, it wasn't just a sell-out.