5 ms·

Anyone else think these companies will pull a Yahoo and undo this policy after the pandemic?

tachyonbeam 6y ago
It's possible. Lots of people don't like working remotely. They might lose a lot of valuable employees. I suppose over time they might also attract people who prefer working from home exclusively, but they would be losing many older employees with valuable knowledge. One way or another, there's going to be some kind of pushback. Many people threatening to quit, many actually quitting. The cynical part of me thinks this is a way of trying to save costs (of renting offices) and pass this as some kind of politically correct virtue signalling. We so care about your well-being and we're so forward looking!
- quaffapint 6y ago
  Will they? In my little view of the world I see younger workers who use the office for a social atmosphere as the ones who want to go back. Those of us that are older with older kids/wives seem more content at home. At least that's what I'm seeing in my current company.
  - tachyonbeam 6y ago
    I meant older as in more seniority.
  - enobrev 6y ago
    Long before I ever even considered starting a family, I've always preferred working from home. I very much prefer keeping my social life and my work life separate. I'm close with a few people in my industry, but only the ones I really enjoy spending time with, personally. I also have a great deal of respect for my teammates, some of whom I've worked with on multiple projects and companies over the past decade. But I'm especially glad not to complicate our relationships beyond our work together.
- cryptoz 6y ago
  Is any of this forced? I can't read the article (paywall) but it sounds like work-from-home at Shopify will be optional right? The employer is 'letting' it happen, not forcing it, correct? Why would this make so many people so angry that they would leave? Or am I misunderstanding?
  - Grimm1 6y ago
    No they said the office is dead, full remote
    - cryptoz 6y ago
      It sounds to me like the office is simply closed for remodelling and cleaning and will reopen at partial capacity in a few months. This is the vibe I get from the intro, can't read the whole article (paywall)
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - Grimm1 6y ago
        “As of today, Shopify is a digital by default company” he said.
- anarbadalov 6y ago
  The cynical part of me thinks this is a way of trying to save costs (of renting offices) and pass this as some kind of politically correct virtue signalling. 100% this. Will be interesting to see what employers do when workers start requesting part-time coworking space.
- bjt 6y ago
  In my experience, team effectiveness in different remote vs in-office scenarios plays out like this: Most effective - All of the team physically together in the same space. 2nd most effective - All of the team remote. Least effective - A mix of in-office and remote team members. Most companies that try out remote work start with the least effective option (the mix). I don't know enough details of Yahoo's attempt to say if that's what they did, but I expect so. The 100% remote option can save some office space cost, but some of that gets eaten up by increased travel. Even 100% remote teams can greatly benefit from getting together sometimes. But one less-appreciated possibility opened up by 100% remote is the ability to draw talent from a much larger geographic area. We had engineers from all over North and South America. On balance, I think that makes it easier to retain older employees with valuable knowledge, who might want to have a house in the suburbs in a non-coastal state, instead of limiting your hiring pool to people willing to tolerate the congestion and cost of living in a big city.
  - cryptoz 6y ago
    > Even 100% remote teams can greatly benefit from getting together sometimes. I guess my take is the hot one, but if a remote team is routinely travelling to meet, I do not think that is 100% remote! It's just mostly remote. I recently had a 'remote job' that required 6-8 cross-country airline flights per year. The stress from those trips dramatically decreased my productivity in the weeks leading up to the trip (via increased personal costs not covered by the company, via harassment at airport security, etc). When hired, I was told it was 2 trips per year. This was okay with me, but the increase was not. Perhaps some teams who work remotely can and do benefit from frequently meeting in person, but I honestly do not count that as 100% remote. It just...isn't 100%.
- johnrob 6y ago
  For those seeking the office experience, it will feel a lot different when everyone is maintaining 6 feet of distance. Not going to be the same experience people were fond of, IMO.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    6 feet of distance isn't going to be a permanent thing, though, and it sounds like Shopify is looking further ahead than just the next year.
  - qwerty123457 6y ago
    FYI, 6 feet distance indoors does nothing if you're sitting in the same recycled air in the same enclosed space 8 hours a day. That rule is to prevent spread from strangers in grocery stores etc during brief contacts
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
weston 6y ago
Only if they want to end up like Yahoo. Taking away a benefit, be it free cokes or working from home, likely would cause a huge exodus of engineers.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  I don't think of it as a benefit... It kind of sounds like WFH is going to be mandatory from now on?
  - cryptoz 6y ago
    Where did you read that this is mandatory? It sounds optional to me from the opening sentence of the article.
    - tachyonbeam 6y ago
      https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1263483496087064579 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1263483496087064579
      - cryptoz 6y ago
        I can't find anything about mandatory no-office-work in that tweet thread anywhere. I see that the offices are reopening in a few months, with reduced capacity and an expectation that most employees will want to work from home. I don't see anything stating that you will not be allowed back in the office. Maybe I misunderstand. I don't know.
smnrchrds 6y ago
I am not familiar with the history of Yahoo. What event are you referring to?
- pridkett 6y ago
  Shortly after Marissa Mayer became the CEO of Yahoo she made it so, in almost all cases, remote working or working from home, was not an option. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2013/02/25/back-to-the-stone-age-new-yahoo-ceo-marissa-mayer-bans-working-from-home/#3f515fe01667 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2013/02/25/back-t...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
alexbanks 6y ago
Revenue is king. Yahoo pulled it as a last ditch "I don't know, maybe this is the problem" attempt. If companies going full time remote find that they're struggling to perform they'll probably switch back. I think if they just continue the same or improve, definitely not.
- look_lookatme 6y ago
  It was also a personality-driven decision (Mayer).
  - alexbanks 6y ago
    I don't now much about her other than most of the people that I know that worked at Yahoo during her time did not like her.
  - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    I disagree with this. I think anyone who came in to the Yahoo CEO position when Mayer did would have been absolutely insane to allow the work from home policy to continue: 1. It was obvious from the data that tons of people were taking advantage of WFH at Yahoo (e.g. never logging into the corporate network) 2. Easy to make the argument that the problem was Yahoo management didn't manage WFH well, but even if one takes that as a truism (I'd say especially if one takes that as a truism) seems like the fastest way to fix that would have been to at least get everyone in the office. WFH can work great, or it can be a total failure, but the worst in any case would be to come into a specific situation and not make decisions based on the data for that company at hand and instead base them off some broad "industry trends" standards.
  - atarian 6y ago
    Actually, it was data-driven. She reportedly looked at how many people who were WFH were actively using the company VPN.
tensor 6y ago
I doubt it. I'm betting that the unstated parts of this is that the office isn't going away completely, it's just going to be downsized and shifted to something like hoteling.
fourmyle 6y ago
Yep, most people can’t be as productive remote despite believing they can and bosses want to see their people in the office.
bb2018 6y ago
I don't know if they will, and don't even know if they know, but I think you are 100% right that they are leaving that on the table privately. There is really nothing to stop them from undoing the policy or altering so that particular teams (which end up being a large portion of the workforce) need to come in. For now, it saves tremendous costs as it could be over a year before their typical engineer wants to come into an office.
fullshark 6y ago
If I were to bet, it'd be that this is a knee jerk reaction to feeling helpless currently with everyone forced to WFH / lack of clarity on timeline and won't become the norm.

It's possible. Lots of people don't like working remotely. They might lose a lot of valuable employees. I suppose over time they might also attract people who prefer working from home exclusively, but they would be losing many older employees with valuable knowledge. One way or another, there's going to be some kind of pushback. Many people threatening to quit, many actually quitting. The cynical part of me thinks this is a way of trying to save costs (of renting offices) and pass this as some kind of politically correct virtue signalling. We so care about your well-being and we're so forward looking!

quaffapint 6y ago
Will they? In my little view of the world I see younger workers who use the office for a social atmosphere as the ones who want to go back. Those of us that are older with older kids/wives seem more content at home. At least that's what I'm seeing in my current company.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  I meant older as in more seniority.
- enobrev 6y ago
  Long before I ever even considered starting a family, I've always preferred working from home. I very much prefer keeping my social life and my work life separate. I'm close with a few people in my industry, but only the ones I really enjoy spending time with, personally. I also have a great deal of respect for my teammates, some of whom I've worked with on multiple projects and companies over the past decade. But I'm especially glad not to complicate our relationships beyond our work together.
cryptoz 6y ago
Is any of this forced? I can't read the article (paywall) but it sounds like work-from-home at Shopify will be optional right? The employer is 'letting' it happen, not forcing it, correct? Why would this make so many people so angry that they would leave? Or am I misunderstanding?
- Grimm1 6y ago
  No they said the office is dead, full remote
  - cryptoz 6y ago
    It sounds to me like the office is simply closed for remodelling and cleaning and will reopen at partial capacity in a few months. This is the vibe I get from the intro, can't read the whole article (paywall)
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Grimm1 6y ago
      “As of today, Shopify is a digital by default company” he said.
anarbadalov 6y ago
The cynical part of me thinks this is a way of trying to save costs (of renting offices) and pass this as some kind of politically correct virtue signalling. 100% this. Will be interesting to see what employers do when workers start requesting part-time coworking space.
bjt 6y ago
In my experience, team effectiveness in different remote vs in-office scenarios plays out like this: Most effective - All of the team physically together in the same space. 2nd most effective - All of the team remote. Least effective - A mix of in-office and remote team members. Most companies that try out remote work start with the least effective option (the mix). I don't know enough details of Yahoo's attempt to say if that's what they did, but I expect so. The 100% remote option can save some office space cost, but some of that gets eaten up by increased travel. Even 100% remote teams can greatly benefit from getting together sometimes. But one less-appreciated possibility opened up by 100% remote is the ability to draw talent from a much larger geographic area. We had engineers from all over North and South America. On balance, I think that makes it easier to retain older employees with valuable knowledge, who might want to have a house in the suburbs in a non-coastal state, instead of limiting your hiring pool to people willing to tolerate the congestion and cost of living in a big city.
- cryptoz 6y ago
  > Even 100% remote teams can greatly benefit from getting together sometimes. I guess my take is the hot one, but if a remote team is routinely travelling to meet, I do not think that is 100% remote! It's just mostly remote. I recently had a 'remote job' that required 6-8 cross-country airline flights per year. The stress from those trips dramatically decreased my productivity in the weeks leading up to the trip (via increased personal costs not covered by the company, via harassment at airport security, etc). When hired, I was told it was 2 trips per year. This was okay with me, but the increase was not. Perhaps some teams who work remotely can and do benefit from frequently meeting in person, but I honestly do not count that as 100% remote. It just...isn't 100%.
johnrob 6y ago
For those seeking the office experience, it will feel a lot different when everyone is maintaining 6 feet of distance. Not going to be the same experience people were fond of, IMO.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  6 feet of distance isn't going to be a permanent thing, though, and it sounds like Shopify is looking further ahead than just the next year.
- qwerty123457 6y ago
  FYI, 6 feet distance indoors does nothing if you're sitting in the same recycled air in the same enclosed space 8 hours a day. That rule is to prevent spread from strangers in grocery stores etc during brief contacts
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

weston 6y ago

Only if they want to end up like Yahoo. Taking away a benefit, be it free cokes or working from home, likely would cause a huge exodus of engineers.

tachyonbeam 6y ago
I don't think of it as a benefit... It kind of sounds like WFH is going to be mandatory from now on?
- cryptoz 6y ago
  Where did you read that this is mandatory? It sounds optional to me from the opening sentence of the article.
  - tachyonbeam 6y ago
    https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1263483496087064579 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1263483496087064579
    - cryptoz 6y ago
      I can't find anything about mandatory no-office-work in that tweet thread anywhere. I see that the offices are reopening in a few months, with reduced capacity and an expectation that most employees will want to work from home. I don't see anything stating that you will not be allowed back in the office. Maybe I misunderstand. I don't know.

smnrchrds 6y ago

I am not familiar with the history of Yahoo. What event are you referring to?

pridkett 6y ago
Shortly after Marissa Mayer became the CEO of Yahoo she made it so, in almost all cases, remote working or working from home, was not an option. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2013/02/25/back-to-the-stone-age-new-yahoo-ceo-marissa-mayer-bans-working-from-home/#3f515fe01667 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2013/02/25/back-t...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

alexbanks 6y ago

Revenue is king. Yahoo pulled it as a last ditch "I don't know, maybe this is the problem" attempt. If companies going full time remote find that they're struggling to perform they'll probably switch back. I think if they just continue the same or improve, definitely not.

look_lookatme 6y ago
It was also a personality-driven decision (Mayer).
- alexbanks 6y ago
  I don't now much about her other than most of the people that I know that worked at Yahoo during her time did not like her.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  I disagree with this. I think anyone who came in to the Yahoo CEO position when Mayer did would have been absolutely insane to allow the work from home policy to continue: 1. It was obvious from the data that tons of people were taking advantage of WFH at Yahoo (e.g. never logging into the corporate network) 2. Easy to make the argument that the problem was Yahoo management didn't manage WFH well, but even if one takes that as a truism (I'd say especially if one takes that as a truism) seems like the fastest way to fix that would have been to at least get everyone in the office. WFH can work great, or it can be a total failure, but the worst in any case would be to come into a specific situation and not make decisions based on the data for that company at hand and instead base them off some broad "industry trends" standards.
- atarian 6y ago
  Actually, it was data-driven. She reportedly looked at how many people who were WFH were actively using the company VPN.

tensor 6y ago

I doubt it. I'm betting that the unstated parts of this is that the office isn't going away completely, it's just going to be downsized and shifted to something like hoteling.

fourmyle 6y ago

Yep, most people can’t be as productive remote despite believing they can and bosses want to see their people in the office.

bb2018 6y ago

I don't know if they will, and don't even know if they know, but I think you are 100% right that they are leaving that on the table privately. There is really nothing to stop them from undoing the policy or altering so that particular teams (which end up being a large portion of the workforce) need to come in. For now, it saves tremendous costs as it could be over a year before their typical engineer wants to come into an office.

fullshark 6y ago

If I were to bet, it'd be that this is a knee jerk reaction to feeling helpless currently with everyone forced to WFH / lack of clarity on timeline and won't become the norm.