5 ms·

America attracts top talent from all around the world. China has a lot of domestic talent but struggles to put it to good use, and does not really have a compel

by 4cao 6y ago

America attracts top talent from all around the world. China has a lot of domestic talent but struggles to put it to good use, and does not really have a compelling proposition for anybody coming from the outside. This I think is the biggest differentiator and unlikely to change for the time being. American tech dominance is also predicated upon having a huge domestic market that is relatively uniform in terms of the business environment and easy to navigate. Start here and you have access to 330M potential customers. This is something that the EU/EEA is only struggling to become: it's mostly still separate national markets there. China has the same advantage America had as well, and an even larger population to start with. America has well-oiled financial markets that are good at allocating capital. In China it's the government doing the allocation, and the results have often been abysmal, e.g. technology investment funds being used to further inflate the property bubble in disguise. However, historically, many of the biggest technological breakthroughs in the US were associated with government-funded military projects. No reason why China could not replicate this in principle. Not sure where the "American values" fit here, it depends what you mean by that. If you meant entrepreneurial spirit and individualism then the Chinese are entrepreneurial and individualist too. If you mean liberty/freedom then these aren't only American values but more broadly the values of the European Enlightenment, and this is indeed another differentiator between China and the cultural West. Would be interesting to know what values you had in mind.

klipt 6y ago
> America attracts top talent from all around the world. The current administration seems to be trying hard to change this via travel bans etc. The one actually good idea that Trump floated in his campaign was meritocratic points based immigration ala Canada, but it seems that topic got dropped in favor of more attention drawing stunts like the border wall. > technology investment funds being used to further inflate the property bubble in disguise Same thing in Silicon Valley, and to a lesser extent many other US cities with good tech jobs.
- malandrew 6y ago
  > meritocratic points based immigration this is one of the main ideas that Ted Cruz has promoted.
  - raducu 6y ago
    Like China's social credit system, but for immigrants?
    - klipt 6y ago
      No, like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Express_Entry#Economic_value_versus_"first-come_first-served" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Express_Entry#Economic_value_v...
- 0xFFC 6y ago
  I was applying for PhD in CS in 2017, I changed my destination from USA to Canada specifically because of Trump. Although job prospect is way better in USA, I will never ever come to a country where they don’t treat me right. (I am talking about government and policies. I don’t have any problem with Americans actually and gave quite a lot of American friends). By not treating me right I am talking about for example: 1) At that time they were talking about imposing tax for graduate students. That could have had devastating effect on grad student life. 2) Right now they are talking about removing OPT.
- dannyw 6y ago
  I think it’s unsubstantiated to claim that travel bans on select Middle eastern countries have reduced talented immigration to America. Employment based immigration has been up year on year for the past 5 years: https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/AnnualReports/FY2019AnnualReport/FY19AnnualReport-%20TableII.pdf https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/Annual...
  - klipt 6y ago
    Well the worst aspects of the travel ban were reversed by the courts, but the initial version that Trump tried to pass would have meant that eg Iranians with green cards who happened to be outside the US when the ban started couldn't return to the US, which obviously would have reduced (even reversed?) talented immigration. Also your link is meaningless because the most common way to get an employment green card is by adjusting status in the US (from eg H1-B status to green card), not by getting an immigrant visa, but that table only counts immigrant visas.
malandrew 6y ago
I'm very curious about collaboration in the equation. In the US we have things like github. You have open source via linux and organizations like Apache, etc. What about the role of standards bodies like the IETF or W3C and industry specific standards bodies. China has none of these. If one reads Anna Lee Saxenians "Cultural Advantage" and the "New Argonauts", you see a lot more missing pieces that are hard to replicate and cultural. Even in the US, Route 128 was usurped by the culture from the SF Bay Area, which has spread to Seattle, Austin and NYC, but at the end of the day these markets are all extensions of the SF Bay Area not challengers presenting a new model detached from SF Bay Area culture, money and networks. Even strong international markets like Taiwan and Israel are extensions of the SF Bay Area. I also would not discount the fact that all tech that matters globally ultimately is written by engineers communicating in English regardless of what country the engineer is from or resides in. That goes a LONG way to establishing tech dominance in the US. China would have to de facto move all its tech even within its borders to English first if they want to usurp that. Not that English guarantees success (see England and other English speaking countries), but it's absolutely a barrier for non-english speaking countries. Every programming language that matters has keywords in English and all the best learning materials are in English. Same for all other tech and science that matters outside of programming as well. All English.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  > China has none of these. This seems like FUD. Like it or not, China has made key contributions to industry standards including 5G.
  - malandrew 6y ago
    Which of those contributions are in Chinese and are controlled by China? I didn't say China wouldn't contribute. Chinese people have and they will. Just like people from many nations. And like people from many nations, they will contribute to things that extend the dominance of western institutions. After all the ITU is based in Geneva. I'm not even from the US or Europe yet all my engineering contributions are here in the US. None of my contributions do anything for the country I'm from.
- 6y ago
magicsmoke 6y ago
As for American values, I think the best way for me to illustrate it would be with a thought experiment. Suppose that due to an act of god America ceases to exist tomorrow. However, it can transfer all its wealth and knowledge to one other country in the world which would propel it to take America's place instead. I'm sure that as the soon to vanish Americans debate among themselves about who should be their successor, China would come very low on the list of proposed countries. Frankly, Americans do not want to see a world where China is the world leader and how China would then influence the world. That's the values gap I'm referring to. That nebulous set of characteristics that groups some countries in the world with America as "us" and pushes other countries outside as "them," and how "we" do not want to live in a world that "they" create.
- throwaway587654 6y ago
  Depends on the situation. If America vanished because of an alien invasion, and Americans debated among themselves about who could best take revenge against the aliens, China would be at the very top of the list of proposed countries.
  - ByteJockey 6y ago
    I feel like Russia would end up higher up on that list. Their active military engagements and large nuclear arsenal make them perfect for that.
- mikekchar 6y ago
  This may be a bit challenging -- especially I can appreciate how most Americans would fear a world where China is the world that "they" create. However, for a lot of people in the world, there is actually a gap of values where America is the "they" in this picture. I still remember the celebrations in Japan when Obama was elected as president (which I thought was being a bit optimistic, personally -- only so much a president can do, no matter how much they wish to do good (or not)). But the thing for me was, why are all the people in my office so invested in an election, half way around the world, where they have absolutely no say? Of course it is obvious. What the US does affects everybody and it doesn't always affect non-Americans in a good way. In some ways, I think it is good that Americans get some inkling that you don't really want a single country imposing their set of values on the rest of the world. Of course, I have no idea what the best alternative is, but I think it's food for thought.
xster 6y ago
> China has a lot of domestic talent but struggles to put it to good use Is there something quantifiable you're referring to?
- innagadadavida 6y ago
  More Chinese people come here to America looking for opportunities than the other way around.
  - xster 6y ago
    That's quite a leap being stated matter-of-factly Your argument is true with most countries in general https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese. Are you saying Myanmar does a better job of putting talents to use than China?
9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
America has currently slammed the doors shut on top talent from anywhere, even its allies. I think the most interesting market and the best predictor for eventual dominance may be neither China nor the US, but the rest of the world. Chinese companies like Alibaba are investing heavily in the South-East Asian tech scene, and this market alone has twice the population of the US. However, to date the market has largely been the domain of homegrown players (Grab, Gojek, Tokopedia, Lazada, Shopee etc) that remain basically unknown in the region.
- Supermancho 6y ago
  Top companies in the US still hire developers from abroad. I've personally interviewed and onboarded from China and India in the last 3 years. I'm not sure "doors shut" is the right metaphor.
- dannyw 6y ago
  AFAIK, H1B, E3, etc visas are still going through and maybe a bit stricter but relatively unchanged.
LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
Err. LOL? Uniform business environment? Different sales tax everywhere? Different environmental and recycling laws? Some things not allowed to cross state lines? Other things maybe some state lines? R U serious? edit: I mean in the U.S. of A.

by 4cao 6y ago

klipt 6y ago

> America attracts top talent from all around the world. The current administration seems to be trying hard to change this via travel bans etc. The one actually good idea that Trump floated in his campaign was meritocratic points based immigration ala Canada, but it seems that topic got dropped in favor of more attention drawing stunts like the border wall. > technology investment funds being used to further inflate the property bubble in disguise Same thing in Silicon Valley, and to a lesser extent many other US cities with good tech jobs.

malandrew 6y ago
> meritocratic points based immigration this is one of the main ideas that Ted Cruz has promoted.
- raducu 6y ago
  Like China's social credit system, but for immigrants?
  - klipt 6y ago
    No, like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Express_Entry#Economic_value_versus_"first-come_first-served" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Express_Entry#Economic_value_v...
0xFFC 6y ago
I was applying for PhD in CS in 2017, I changed my destination from USA to Canada specifically because of Trump. Although job prospect is way better in USA, I will never ever come to a country where they don’t treat me right. (I am talking about government and policies. I don’t have any problem with Americans actually and gave quite a lot of American friends). By not treating me right I am talking about for example: 1) At that time they were talking about imposing tax for graduate students. That could have had devastating effect on grad student life. 2) Right now they are talking about removing OPT.
dannyw 6y ago
I think it’s unsubstantiated to claim that travel bans on select Middle eastern countries have reduced talented immigration to America. Employment based immigration has been up year on year for the past 5 years: https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/AnnualReports/FY2019AnnualReport/FY19AnnualReport-%20TableII.pdf https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/Annual...
- klipt 6y ago
  Well the worst aspects of the travel ban were reversed by the courts, but the initial version that Trump tried to pass would have meant that eg Iranians with green cards who happened to be outside the US when the ban started couldn't return to the US, which obviously would have reduced (even reversed?) talented immigration. Also your link is meaningless because the most common way to get an employment green card is by adjusting status in the US (from eg H1-B status to green card), not by getting an immigrant visa, but that table only counts immigrant visas.

malandrew 6y ago

I'm very curious about collaboration in the equation. In the US we have things like github. You have open source via linux and organizations like Apache, etc. What about the role of standards bodies like the IETF or W3C and industry specific standards bodies. China has none of these. If one reads Anna Lee Saxenians "Cultural Advantage" and the "New Argonauts", you see a lot more missing pieces that are hard to replicate and cultural. Even in the US, Route 128 was usurped by the culture from the SF Bay Area, which has spread to Seattle, Austin and NYC, but at the end of the day these markets are all extensions of the SF Bay Area not challengers presenting a new model detached from SF Bay Area culture, money and networks. Even strong international markets like Taiwan and Israel are extensions of the SF Bay Area. I also would not discount the fact that all tech that matters globally ultimately is written by engineers communicating in English regardless of what country the engineer is from or resides in. That goes a LONG way to establishing tech dominance in the US. China would have to de facto move all its tech even within its borders to English first if they want to usurp that. Not that English guarantees success (see England and other English speaking countries), but it's absolutely a barrier for non-english speaking countries. Every programming language that matters has keywords in English and all the best learning materials are in English. Same for all other tech and science that matters outside of programming as well. All English.

zozbot234 6y ago
> China has none of these. This seems like FUD. Like it or not, China has made key contributions to industry standards including 5G.
- malandrew 6y ago
  Which of those contributions are in Chinese and are controlled by China? I didn't say China wouldn't contribute. Chinese people have and they will. Just like people from many nations. And like people from many nations, they will contribute to things that extend the dominance of western institutions. After all the ITU is based in Geneva. I'm not even from the US or Europe yet all my engineering contributions are here in the US. None of my contributions do anything for the country I'm from.
6y ago

magicsmoke 6y ago

As for American values, I think the best way for me to illustrate it would be with a thought experiment. Suppose that due to an act of god America ceases to exist tomorrow. However, it can transfer all its wealth and knowledge to one other country in the world which would propel it to take America's place instead. I'm sure that as the soon to vanish Americans debate among themselves about who should be their successor, China would come very low on the list of proposed countries. Frankly, Americans do not want to see a world where China is the world leader and how China would then influence the world. That's the values gap I'm referring to. That nebulous set of characteristics that groups some countries in the world with America as "us" and pushes other countries outside as "them," and how "we" do not want to live in a world that "they" create.

throwaway587654 6y ago
Depends on the situation. If America vanished because of an alien invasion, and Americans debated among themselves about who could best take revenge against the aliens, China would be at the very top of the list of proposed countries.
- ByteJockey 6y ago
  I feel like Russia would end up higher up on that list. Their active military engagements and large nuclear arsenal make them perfect for that.
mikekchar 6y ago
This may be a bit challenging -- especially I can appreciate how most Americans would fear a world where China is the world that "they" create. However, for a lot of people in the world, there is actually a gap of values where America is the "they" in this picture. I still remember the celebrations in Japan when Obama was elected as president (which I thought was being a bit optimistic, personally -- only so much a president can do, no matter how much they wish to do good (or not)). But the thing for me was, why are all the people in my office so invested in an election, half way around the world, where they have absolutely no say? Of course it is obvious. What the US does affects everybody and it doesn't always affect non-Americans in a good way. In some ways, I think it is good that Americans get some inkling that you don't really want a single country imposing their set of values on the rest of the world. Of course, I have no idea what the best alternative is, but I think it's food for thought.

xster 6y ago

> China has a lot of domestic talent but struggles to put it to good use Is there something quantifiable you're referring to?

innagadadavida 6y ago
More Chinese people come here to America looking for opportunities than the other way around.
- xster 6y ago
  That's quite a leap being stated matter-of-factly Your argument is true with most countries in general https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese. Are you saying Myanmar does a better job of putting talents to use than China?

9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago

America has currently slammed the doors shut on top talent from anywhere, even its allies. I think the most interesting market and the best predictor for eventual dominance may be neither China nor the US, but the rest of the world. Chinese companies like Alibaba are investing heavily in the South-East Asian tech scene, and this market alone has twice the population of the US. However, to date the market has largely been the domain of homegrown players (Grab, Gojek, Tokopedia, Lazada, Shopee etc) that remain basically unknown in the region.

Supermancho 6y ago
Top companies in the US still hire developers from abroad. I've personally interviewed and onboarded from China and India in the last 3 years. I'm not sure "doors shut" is the right metaphor.
dannyw 6y ago
AFAIK, H1B, E3, etc visas are still going through and maybe a bit stricter but relatively unchanged.

LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago

Err. LOL? Uniform business environment? Different sales tax everywhere? Different environmental and recycling laws? Some things not allowed to cross state lines? Other things maybe some state lines? R U serious? edit: I mean in the U.S. of A.