4 ms·

What happens if Chinese big tech starts dominating the world? Since the US no longer dominates manufacturing, if the US starts losing in services too, what adva

What happens if Chinese big tech starts dominating the world? Since the US no longer dominates manufacturing, if the US starts losing in services too, what advantage will the US ever have on China?

Avicebron 6y ago
That's where we are at. Thankfully modern economic theory has the best interest of the US at heart. I'm sure the more we offshore the better it will get for all of us here, I mean it just makes sense.
jariel 6y ago
This is an excellent question, but more pertinent is the fact that these companies are state-sponsored, state-backed. The CCP/China views these apps as a serious tool of foreign policy and economic expansion, influence and control. Imagine if Trump had meetings with Apple CEO and was subsidizing their product, creating worker legislation for them, directing/requiring banks to fund them, using the foreign service to help cut deals and suppress competitors etc., controlling/censoring everything in the AppStore. This happens everywhere to some extent but it's very real for China. It would be fine if some 'large, great Chinese companies' started doing some great things but that isn't really the case, this will be a form of economic dumping, state collusion and strategy. It's a serious issue that 'old economy' Trump is nowhere close to understanding. We don't want to get hyper-nationalist on the other hand, we can't afford to ignore the real systematic issues either, and only a very firm hand will be able to make a difference. This is in a way the paradox of Trump - he's the only US leader, arguably through bluster and arrogance - to be able to actually stand up to some systematic Chinese intransigence.
- throwaway122378 6y ago
  > It's a serious issue that 'old economy' Trump is nowhere close to understanding. Politics aside Trump is the first US President to stand up to China. The question is will US corporations do the same?
  - jariel 6y ago
    US Corporations do not have the power to 'stand up to China'. People need to start to understand that when it comes to major international players, over $50B, that are related to state actors - then it's a geopolitical question as much as an economic one. TikTok is not just a company, it's a strategic arm of the Chinese government. China 'divides and conquers' and pushes ruthlessly on any and all entities in pursuit of its goals. They coordinate student groups on Western Uni campuses to oversee Chinese students, suppress any ideas or policies in their way. They threaten any politician, and the press from publishing or making statements they're not happy with. They use the 'carrot' of access to their huge market, but often this is a ruse - as they require foreign companies to hand over IP to local companies, this IP filters into the hands of state-backed competitors and the entrant never has an opportunity. All of this is in blatant contradiction to WTO terms. The Western companies that have made inroads are ones that have a lot of brand value, think McDonald's or Disney, but even then, China can have leverage: Big Hollywood films are made for global audiences, and China is a big market over which the government censors and controls content. China dictate terms to major Hollywood studios - and said studios comply - or are banned. It's that simple. "If you do not promote our policies, and portray China a certain way, you do not get access to our market. So here is how you are going to portray us: ..." Only the US President or the leader of the EU with the backing of the German Chancellor has the hope of applying pressure on China in any serious way. The Europeans won't so it's down to the US president. Trump is blustering, nationalist, and not quite focused on the right things in 'standing up to China' and I think he might be doing it for some of the wrong reasons, nevertheless, he is doing it, and actually it is working. He has mostly a competent team doing it. China's tactics have made a lot of talk behind closed doors around the world and even Dems, Europeans - everyone - is actually happy about this. Sadly, it may be that the next administration may not have the wherewithal to continue to push for better terms because it does require a fairly steadfast and aggressive approach inconsistent with the personal manner of say, a guy like Obama, whom I admire quite a lot, but who I don't think will do what is needed. Assume that anything you say on Zoom or TikTok could be made available fairly readily to the Chinese government and that they will leverage control of TikTok for whatever reason they want, consistent with their overall geopolitical strategy.
    - 6y ago
michaelyoshika 6y ago
Soon Tiktok will be banned in the US by an act proposed by FB lobbyists. Smart for them to hire an American CEO, though. But I still believe FB has more lobbyists. Another possible outcome is they will be forced to sell TikTok to some holding companies in the US.
- majormajor 6y ago
  What's the worst that can happen? China banning US services seems to have worked out just fine for their tech industry, so maybe more countries should do that, not fewer.
  - ngokevin 6y ago
    Yeah, I don't really blame them for taking control of their citizens' data and keeping the revenue within borders versus shipping it out to American corporations.
  - dntbnmpls 6y ago
    I've been saying this myself for a while now. Take the EU for example. Why doesn't the EU have a silicon valley rivaling our silicon valley? They have a larger population and a larger economy. Not only can they afford to invest in their silicon valley, they have a market to sustain it. Where is their facebook, google, apple, youtube, etc? Even more baffling is india. The US has a lot of indian tech workers. Why doesn't india bring some home and build their own tech giants. Instead their major "tech" companies are outsourcing companies which essentially "sells" indian workers all over the world. Why not use those workers to build indian tech companies? Why isn't there an indian whatsapp? Why did india hand that market over to facebook? None of this makes any sense. If they don't want to follow the "chinese model" because of any perceived stigma attached to it, then follow our model. The US became an economic powerhouse due to protectionism. Every major economy in the world developed under protectionism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_St... I used to think it was because politicians are old and think tech is magic, but I'm just starting to believe most of them are outright lazy and incompetent.
magicsmoke 6y ago
World's largest navy and control of global oil shipping. That and some pretty advanced and battle tested military technology and the world's largest arms industry.
baby 6y ago
The US can easily block these apps. Why not? Western apps are blocked in China.

What happens if Chinese big tech starts dominating the world? Since the US no longer dominates manufacturing, if the US starts losing in services too, what advantage will the US ever have on China?

Avicebron 6y ago

That's where we are at. Thankfully modern economic theory has the best interest of the US at heart. I'm sure the more we offshore the better it will get for all of us here, I mean it just makes sense.

jariel 6y ago

This is an excellent question, but more pertinent is the fact that these companies are state-sponsored, state-backed. The CCP/China views these apps as a serious tool of foreign policy and economic expansion, influence and control. Imagine if Trump had meetings with Apple CEO and was subsidizing their product, creating worker legislation for them, directing/requiring banks to fund them, using the foreign service to help cut deals and suppress competitors etc., controlling/censoring everything in the AppStore. This happens everywhere to some extent but it's very real for China. It would be fine if some 'large, great Chinese companies' started doing some great things but that isn't really the case, this will be a form of economic dumping, state collusion and strategy. It's a serious issue that 'old economy' Trump is nowhere close to understanding. We don't want to get hyper-nationalist on the other hand, we can't afford to ignore the real systematic issues either, and only a very firm hand will be able to make a difference. This is in a way the paradox of Trump - he's the only US leader, arguably through bluster and arrogance - to be able to actually stand up to some systematic Chinese intransigence.

throwaway122378 6y ago
> It's a serious issue that 'old economy' Trump is nowhere close to understanding. Politics aside Trump is the first US President to stand up to China. The question is will US corporations do the same?
- jariel 6y ago
  US Corporations do not have the power to 'stand up to China'. People need to start to understand that when it comes to major international players, over $50B, that are related to state actors - then it's a geopolitical question as much as an economic one. TikTok is not just a company, it's a strategic arm of the Chinese government. China 'divides and conquers' and pushes ruthlessly on any and all entities in pursuit of its goals. They coordinate student groups on Western Uni campuses to oversee Chinese students, suppress any ideas or policies in their way. They threaten any politician, and the press from publishing or making statements they're not happy with. They use the 'carrot' of access to their huge market, but often this is a ruse - as they require foreign companies to hand over IP to local companies, this IP filters into the hands of state-backed competitors and the entrant never has an opportunity. All of this is in blatant contradiction to WTO terms. The Western companies that have made inroads are ones that have a lot of brand value, think McDonald's or Disney, but even then, China can have leverage: Big Hollywood films are made for global audiences, and China is a big market over which the government censors and controls content. China dictate terms to major Hollywood studios - and said studios comply - or are banned. It's that simple. "If you do not promote our policies, and portray China a certain way, you do not get access to our market. So here is how you are going to portray us: ..." Only the US President or the leader of the EU with the backing of the German Chancellor has the hope of applying pressure on China in any serious way. The Europeans won't so it's down to the US president. Trump is blustering, nationalist, and not quite focused on the right things in 'standing up to China' and I think he might be doing it for some of the wrong reasons, nevertheless, he is doing it, and actually it is working. He has mostly a competent team doing it. China's tactics have made a lot of talk behind closed doors around the world and even Dems, Europeans - everyone - is actually happy about this. Sadly, it may be that the next administration may not have the wherewithal to continue to push for better terms because it does require a fairly steadfast and aggressive approach inconsistent with the personal manner of say, a guy like Obama, whom I admire quite a lot, but who I don't think will do what is needed. Assume that anything you say on Zoom or TikTok could be made available fairly readily to the Chinese government and that they will leverage control of TikTok for whatever reason they want, consistent with their overall geopolitical strategy.
  - 6y ago

michaelyoshika 6y ago

Soon Tiktok will be banned in the US by an act proposed by FB lobbyists. Smart for them to hire an American CEO, though. But I still believe FB has more lobbyists. Another possible outcome is they will be forced to sell TikTok to some holding companies in the US.

majormajor 6y ago
What's the worst that can happen? China banning US services seems to have worked out just fine for their tech industry, so maybe more countries should do that, not fewer.
- ngokevin 6y ago
  Yeah, I don't really blame them for taking control of their citizens' data and keeping the revenue within borders versus shipping it out to American corporations.
- dntbnmpls 6y ago
  I've been saying this myself for a while now. Take the EU for example. Why doesn't the EU have a silicon valley rivaling our silicon valley? They have a larger population and a larger economy. Not only can they afford to invest in their silicon valley, they have a market to sustain it. Where is their facebook, google, apple, youtube, etc? Even more baffling is india. The US has a lot of indian tech workers. Why doesn't india bring some home and build their own tech giants. Instead their major "tech" companies are outsourcing companies which essentially "sells" indian workers all over the world. Why not use those workers to build indian tech companies? Why isn't there an indian whatsapp? Why did india hand that market over to facebook? None of this makes any sense. If they don't want to follow the "chinese model" because of any perceived stigma attached to it, then follow our model. The US became an economic powerhouse due to protectionism. Every major economy in the world developed under protectionism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_St... I used to think it was because politicians are old and think tech is magic, but I'm just starting to believe most of them are outright lazy and incompetent.

magicsmoke 6y ago

World's largest navy and control of global oil shipping. That and some pretty advanced and battle tested military technology and the world's largest arms industry.

baby 6y ago

The US can easily block these apps. Why not? Western apps are blocked in China.