7 ms·

This is brought up every time Microsoft and Github are discussed, and it seems like a very shallow thing to fixate on. Is it impossible that a company, with a n

by danso 6y ago

This is brought up every time Microsoft and Github are discussed, and it seems like a very shallow thing to fixate on. Is it impossible that a company, with a new CEO and leadership team, would discard a strategy from 25 years ago (more like 50 years ago by non-tech industry timescales)? Especially now that its market dominance is fundamentally different and reduced (likely permanently) compared to the 90s? What evidence is there that Nadella is a Manchurian candidate for Ballmer forces? Note that my issue with EXX being brought up is that it is superficial, to the point of being deceptive to the kind of threats Microsoft+Github are most likely to pose if Nadella et al do have their own malicious plans. But I think Microsoft's support for a healthy OSS ecosystem, via Github and things like VS Code, is genuine. Not necessarily out of altruism, but because it's one of the few ways they can have an edge into the future and not fall into stagnation like IBM.

nogabebop23 6y ago
They've always supported their developer ecosystem better than any other company as well. Nobody else has spent anything like the the time, effort and resources they have in helping devs thrive in their ecosystem. Not because "they're good people" but because it's effective.
alex_young 6y ago
As with most interesting arguments, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I don't doubt that MS would take advantage of market dominance again if it was achieved somehow, and I am sure they are making these plays with increasing their ecosystem in mind. One interesting acquisition to look at is LinkedIn which they have really tightened the screws on to the point where everyone looking for employees or trying to find a job is made to pay. This is especially vile for the unemployed IMHO. On the other hand, the eager monopolist of the day is really Amazon, and MS taking them on is a good thing for the ecosystem. If there is competition MS seems to be playing a fair game. I hope it stays that way.
- Taek 6y ago
  > If there is competition MS seems to be playing a fair game. I hope it stays that way. The structure of US corporations is such that they are fundamentally misaligned with playing a fair game. Corporations have two types of cycles: growth, and profit taking. Regardless of who is in charge of Microsoft today, when Microsoft reaches a position of dominance, the leadership will be shifted by the board and shareholders to focus on exploiting that dominance, rather than continuing to play fair. We are only seeing fair play because Microsoft's position in the open source world is not yet entrenched.
  - danso 6y ago
    Yeah, my most optimistic hope is that Microsoft and the other general software/services titans (Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook) keep each other in equilibrium and in non-dominance, like 1984's Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia. And hopefully there's room for smaller titans to provide specialized alternatives, e.g. Spotify, Dropbox, Gitlab, Zoom
nindalf 6y ago
I think you underestimate a few things - How great it feels to make dire predictions about the future. Only I can see how terrible M$'s latest move is going to be. The other sheeple can't. When I'm right I'll tell everyone I told them so. - How satisfying it is to educate these younguns with their JS frameworks. They don't have my wisdom and experience so I'm doing my duty to society and HN by sharing with them. I will paste links to wikipedia wherever necessary. Like so -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... - how smart I'll look by talking cynically. Every action that someone takes will be followed by a cynical analysis which assumes the worst intentions. Wide eyed optimists will look naive to any person lacking context.
- danso 6y ago
  Oh I definitely get that appeal. I just would rather see more hot takes like "Github is doomed to be the Skype/LinkedIn of open source".
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- runawaybottle 6y ago
  I also think you underestimate how much fun it is for people who see the people seeing and pointing out that you see what their doing. But we can keep seeing things in what has been seen, and never debate the merits in a circular semantics game. Do you see? I see what you did, but I guess you saw what someone else did, and boom we achieved faux transparency. And here is wiki article because I totally see what you did with that wiki thing, like so: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Silverlight https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Silverlight That’s the kind of stuff Microsoft tried to lock people into before. And we remember a world where the stranglehold by IE had to be ruthlessly shredded with open web standards just to get back to sanity.
- nal10 6y ago
  People were shouted down here 5-10 years ago for predicting that Google might turn evil, now it's almost a mainstream opinion here. You know, simple predictions are often correct. But ignore it (especially if your salary depends on it).
smichel17 6y ago
In my opinion, the current mores of the company are pretty irrelevant; power dynamics are what matter. Tides change. Whether or not Microsoft is benevolent today, they may not be in 5+ years. Any company large enough to screw me over without feeling the loss of my (and people like me's) business in their pocketbook, is not a company I want in a position of power over me. Adapted to this conversation: we should not tolerate "extend" from any company that could successfully pull off "extinguish".
- patcon 6y ago
  YES. It's about which realities are in the "adjacent possible", not about the personality of any entity in this "tick" of the timeline. We should avoid realities that make a "dystopic" reality more adjacent to us than we are willing to deal with.
- StrangeWill 6y ago
  Yeah, but that would honestly be an argument for any large company with leverage getting too much leverage, and this would apply to things like Google, Amazon, Apple, etc. and them using their leverage to control markets in similarly unethical ways. It feels tiring that any time Microsoft does something good, EEE comes up, but times where Amazon or Google are doing massive damage to our industry or standards for their own benefits it's crickets.
pritambaral 6y ago
> Is it impossible that a company, with a new CEO and leadership team, would discard a strategy from 25 years ago (more like 50 years ago by non-tech industry timescales)? Is it impossible that a company, with a new CEO and leadership team, would reanimate a strategy from 25 years ago (more like 50 years ago by non-tech industry timescales)? Especially one that the company itself used, and the new CEO witnessed first-hand being used, to great effect to acquire market dominance? > What evidence is there that Nadella is a Manchurian candidate for Ballmer forces? What evidence is there that Nadella is not trying to use the same tactics as Ballmer?
- type0 6y ago
  Now MS is saying they were wrong about Linux being cancer https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/18/21262103/microsoft-open-source-linux-history-wrong-statement https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/18/21262103/microsoft-open-s... They could certainly change their minds again if it suits them
guerrilla 6y ago
Emperical evidence says no. They just extinguished Wunderlist.
cargoshipit 6y ago
I knew something like this would be the top comment as soon as I saw the title.
sadfev 6y ago
Classic Microsoft apologist’s rant. Microsoft still does quite a few detrimental things towards open source movement and community in general. Microsoft is now a wolf in sheep’s clothing
- nogabebop23 6y ago
  So, taking into account they are one of the largest publicly traded companies in the world, what could they do to start earning your trust? If the answer is nothing, then logically they should disregard you and carry on.
  - anlk 6y ago
    This must be one of the strangest pro Microsoft opinions I've ever read here. Nadella IT cells...
  - runawaybottle 6y ago
    I’d say another 15 years of no bad behavior, minimum. The web in particular is still traumatized from years of IE use/development. You needed a virtual machine to test IE on linux/Mac, think about that for a second. It’s great that they realize ‘woah we didn’t give a flying fuck about developers before, huh?’ We’re still being super nice to Microsoft that we don’t give them a pure cold shoulder and accept and evaluate their contributions. Need time, can’t just go running back to the ex because they bought you something expensive.
  - SerLava 6y ago
    I don't think he's proposing that we politely ask microsoft to quit being exploitative.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
From my perspective, all of their actions with open source can be classified as embrace or extend. Their open source work has very little use unless paired with their proprietary software.
jayd16 6y ago
I like what MS is doing these days but I also think its fine to be incredulous, to keep a large corporation at arm's length, and to not forget what can be done if we stop paying attention.
nerdponx 6y ago
I think the most recent impetus is the DirectX+WSL thing that was posted earlier today https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040

by danso 6y ago

nogabebop23 6y ago

They've always supported their developer ecosystem better than any other company as well. Nobody else has spent anything like the the time, effort and resources they have in helping devs thrive in their ecosystem. Not because "they're good people" but because it's effective.

alex_young 6y ago

As with most interesting arguments, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I don't doubt that MS would take advantage of market dominance again if it was achieved somehow, and I am sure they are making these plays with increasing their ecosystem in mind. One interesting acquisition to look at is LinkedIn which they have really tightened the screws on to the point where everyone looking for employees or trying to find a job is made to pay. This is especially vile for the unemployed IMHO. On the other hand, the eager monopolist of the day is really Amazon, and MS taking them on is a good thing for the ecosystem. If there is competition MS seems to be playing a fair game. I hope it stays that way.

Taek 6y ago
> If there is competition MS seems to be playing a fair game. I hope it stays that way. The structure of US corporations is such that they are fundamentally misaligned with playing a fair game. Corporations have two types of cycles: growth, and profit taking. Regardless of who is in charge of Microsoft today, when Microsoft reaches a position of dominance, the leadership will be shifted by the board and shareholders to focus on exploiting that dominance, rather than continuing to play fair. We are only seeing fair play because Microsoft's position in the open source world is not yet entrenched.
- danso 6y ago
  Yeah, my most optimistic hope is that Microsoft and the other general software/services titans (Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook) keep each other in equilibrium and in non-dominance, like 1984's Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia. And hopefully there's room for smaller titans to provide specialized alternatives, e.g. Spotify, Dropbox, Gitlab, Zoom

nindalf 6y ago

I think you underestimate a few things - How great it feels to make dire predictions about the future. Only I can see how terrible M$'s latest move is going to be. The other sheeple can't. When I'm right I'll tell everyone I told them so. - How satisfying it is to educate these younguns with their JS frameworks. They don't have my wisdom and experience so I'm doing my duty to society and HN by sharing with them. I will paste links to wikipedia wherever necessary. Like so -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... - how smart I'll look by talking cynically. Every action that someone takes will be followed by a cynical analysis which assumes the worst intentions. Wide eyed optimists will look naive to any person lacking context.

danso 6y ago
Oh I definitely get that appeal. I just would rather see more hot takes like "Github is doomed to be the Skype/LinkedIn of open source".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
runawaybottle 6y ago
I also think you underestimate how much fun it is for people who see the people seeing and pointing out that you see what their doing. But we can keep seeing things in what has been seen, and never debate the merits in a circular semantics game. Do you see? I see what you did, but I guess you saw what someone else did, and boom we achieved faux transparency. And here is wiki article because I totally see what you did with that wiki thing, like so: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Silverlight https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Silverlight That’s the kind of stuff Microsoft tried to lock people into before. And we remember a world where the stranglehold by IE had to be ruthlessly shredded with open web standards just to get back to sanity.
nal10 6y ago
People were shouted down here 5-10 years ago for predicting that Google might turn evil, now it's almost a mainstream opinion here. You know, simple predictions are often correct. But ignore it (especially if your salary depends on it).

smichel17 6y ago

In my opinion, the current mores of the company are pretty irrelevant; power dynamics are what matter. Tides change. Whether or not Microsoft is benevolent today, they may not be in 5+ years. Any company large enough to screw me over without feeling the loss of my (and people like me's) business in their pocketbook, is not a company I want in a position of power over me. Adapted to this conversation: we should not tolerate "extend" from any company that could successfully pull off "extinguish".

patcon 6y ago
YES. It's about which realities are in the "adjacent possible", not about the personality of any entity in this "tick" of the timeline. We should avoid realities that make a "dystopic" reality more adjacent to us than we are willing to deal with.
StrangeWill 6y ago
Yeah, but that would honestly be an argument for any large company with leverage getting too much leverage, and this would apply to things like Google, Amazon, Apple, etc. and them using their leverage to control markets in similarly unethical ways. It feels tiring that any time Microsoft does something good, EEE comes up, but times where Amazon or Google are doing massive damage to our industry or standards for their own benefits it's crickets.

pritambaral 6y ago

> Is it impossible that a company, with a new CEO and leadership team, would discard a strategy from 25 years ago (more like 50 years ago by non-tech industry timescales)? Is it impossible that a company, with a new CEO and leadership team, would reanimate a strategy from 25 years ago (more like 50 years ago by non-tech industry timescales)? Especially one that the company itself used, and the new CEO witnessed first-hand being used, to great effect to acquire market dominance? > What evidence is there that Nadella is a Manchurian candidate for Ballmer forces? What evidence is there that Nadella is not trying to use the same tactics as Ballmer?

type0 6y ago
Now MS is saying they were wrong about Linux being cancer https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/18/21262103/microsoft-open-source-linux-history-wrong-statement https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/18/21262103/microsoft-open-s... They could certainly change their minds again if it suits them

guerrilla 6y ago

Emperical evidence says no. They just extinguished Wunderlist.

cargoshipit 6y ago

I knew something like this would be the top comment as soon as I saw the title.

sadfev 6y ago

Classic Microsoft apologist’s rant. Microsoft still does quite a few detrimental things towards open source movement and community in general. Microsoft is now a wolf in sheep’s clothing

nogabebop23 6y ago
So, taking into account they are one of the largest publicly traded companies in the world, what could they do to start earning your trust? If the answer is nothing, then logically they should disregard you and carry on.
- anlk 6y ago
  This must be one of the strangest pro Microsoft opinions I've ever read here. Nadella IT cells...
- runawaybottle 6y ago
  I’d say another 15 years of no bad behavior, minimum. The web in particular is still traumatized from years of IE use/development. You needed a virtual machine to test IE on linux/Mac, think about that for a second. It’s great that they realize ‘woah we didn’t give a flying fuck about developers before, huh?’ We’re still being super nice to Microsoft that we don’t give them a pure cold shoulder and accept and evaluate their contributions. Need time, can’t just go running back to the ex because they bought you something expensive.
- SerLava 6y ago
  I don't think he's proposing that we politely ask microsoft to quit being exploitative.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

From my perspective, all of their actions with open source can be classified as embrace or extend. Their open source work has very little use unless paired with their proprietary software.

jayd16 6y ago

I like what MS is doing these days but I also think its fine to be incredulous, to keep a large corporation at arm's length, and to not forget what can be done if we stop paying attention.

nerdponx 6y ago

I think the most recent impetus is the DirectX+WSL thing that was posted earlier today https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040