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Anecdotal: Many folks in my social circles are just less willing to accept the real responsibility of raising a child. We're all late-20-somethings/early 30-som

Anecdotal: Many folks in my social circles are just less willing to accept the real responsibility of raising a child. We're all late-20-somethings/early 30-somethings and I have the conversation all the time with people who want to wait until things like careers are established, until they have a chance to seriously travel a bit, and most commonly they just want to enjoy a relationship without the stress of kids. Kids are an insanely huge responsibility, and to parent right all of your life priorities change completely. Also, with religious stresses being almost non-existent in the groups I run in I feel like people aren't jumping into legally-binding marriages which causes the baby thing to be pushed down the road until they find someone they want to forge a lifelong relationship with. I think it's a super good thing when people take their time to find the right relationship for them! All-in-all I've noticed a big generational gap in thinking on this one because all I hear from tons of older relatives is "sooo when you guys getting married?" ...or even pushing for children before the fact. It feels unnatural and downright weird to field those questions and it's neigh impossible to explain "we're just taking our time to enjoy this thing and not rushing into huge commitments with marriage or kids..." We're just taking our time trying to do the right thing for us really... I just wish people would stop calling us selfish for that.

Press2forEN 6y ago
For two months, lockdown protesters have been called selfish for the perception that they stand in opposition to what their detractors believe is a more important obligation to wider society over their personal concerns. By the same token, having children is essential to maintain the social welfare state, and those that choose to travel or maintain a career instead are currently benefiting from that state while not contributing future workers back to it. I don't know what the solution is, but short of dismantling the welfare state, there needs to be a concern on the part of today's young people for the perpetuation of the system from which they benefited so greatly.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  > having children is essential to maintain the social welfare state That's not actually true though - immigration happily supports the required population growth. When the whole world stops reproducing we may need a plan B, but that's not a problem right now.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jlawson 6y ago
    It is a problem right now. Look at the map [0]. Aside from some minor exceptions, the whole world is at or below replacement rates, except sub-Saharan Africa. Look at the other map [1]. Those are the places with the lowest IQ in the world. Some exceptional individuals aside, Africa isn't going to replace China or India as a source of mass high-quality immigrants. So as soon as China and India develop a bit, and as their low birth rates set in, their people will stop leaving and that'll be it. There will still be poaching of the best but there won't be mass pools of capable people willing to move in to fill the bottom of your social pyramid. What can't go on forever won't. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_birth_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nations_and_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nations_and_intelligence
    - 411111111111111 6y ago
      The world population increased from 2.5 billion in 1950 to almost 8billion today and you're worried about birth date? Really? Let it decrease and hopefully we'll get back into a more sustainable population size.
      - cmurf 6y ago
        How do you grow an economy with negative birth rates?
        ryanwaggoner 6y ago
        Productivity gains. Global GDP per capita has exploded since 1950.
    - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
      You don't think the same socioeconomic forces will come into play on other developing nations as they follow the same sort of progression as China and India? Are you arguing that Africa is just inherently less intelligent?
- folkhack 6y ago
  > there needs to be a concern on the part of today's young people for the perpetuation of the system from which they benefited so greatly It also seems like the system that will throw me overboard and tell me to "pull myself up by the bootstraps" the moment I hit turbulent times.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    Given current events, the argument could be made that it'll also throw you overboard the minute it hits turbulent times as well. Rough seas ahead, somebody is going in the water.
    - folkhack 6y ago
      Right now I feel for the folks that physically have to be on the front-line of all of this to the point I'll say we did throw a lot of them overboard. I'm afraid someone will go off on me for saying this, in regards to unemployment - I do not believe many of these jobs are ever coming back... and I think we've got a recession on our hands that's about to make 2008 look like a stroll through the tulips. We're just in the quiet before the storm =( I don't think enough people here get how lucky most HNers are to be on the right side of the class divide, especially now.
      - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
        Given that this recession was largely artificial - in the sense it's not the market pausing itself, I have no idea if this will prove to be a bad one or not - I don't think we've ever seen anything like this before. But I do share the same fear you have, that the jobs aren't coming back. I think for a lot of companies the skeleton crew will become the normal crew, and as always more will be done with less to the detriment of everyone who isn't still employed.
  - RestlessMind 6y ago
    > It also seems like the system that will throw me overboard ... the moment I hit turbulent times. Which is why having a set of people who are close to you is so priceless. Ultimately, your family and your best friends are more likely to be there for you than any government run program.
- gowld 6y ago
  That's what robots are for.
nathanaldensr 6y ago
It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness has apparently taken over that generation of young people. Our society and culture are doomed if this doesn't change.
- devin 6y ago
  OK, boomer. (Couldn't resist. I'll take the downvotes.)
  - spicyramen 6y ago
    It is always funny how people without kids tell you how life is with kids...and try to teach the world about it...
    - CogitoCogito 6y ago
      > It is always funny how people without kids tell you how life is with kids...and try to teach the world about it... In my experience I mainly hear about those who've had kids telling people about how life is without kids. Of course they've all been in that position before they had kids, but they certainly have no experience of a lifetime without children. People always seem to believe their wisdom is much greater than the sum of their experience.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - detaro 6y ago
      Wrong thread?
    - josefresco 6y ago
      As a nearly 40-something I find I most funny when 20-somethings tell me how the world should be.
- kingkawn 6y ago
  It is easily arguable that given the overpopulation of the planet and looming risks of climate change that the people delaying or choosing against having kids are saving the future for humanity.
3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
> Also, with religious stresses being almost non-existent in the groups I run in I feel like people aren't jumping into legally-binding marriages I’ve made the same observation, I think “common law” marriage is becoming a big thing. I also notice it’s not a mutually-appreciated situation for many couples long term, usually with one partner wanting to enter into a legal marriage but not the other for various reasons.
Spooky23 6y ago
I'm a little older, and while I wouldn't be worried about what strangers think about your choices, you may find your own perspective change if you have kids. I know in my circle of friends and favily, we waited longer than we wanted do due to things out of our control, but ended up being about "average" age for having a first child in our circle. Many of our circle who waited until late 30s/early 40s are very torn up with having waited, as the reality that they are going to miss certain things sets in. Life moves fast, and our modern world tends to make you prioritize things that don't really matter. Your relatives may be annoying, but in most cases, they are probably trying to express how they grew to feel. From my personal pov, watching or working with my 8 year old isn't some obligation that I have to do, it's incredible and more relevant to me that some stupid IT project that I'll barely remember in 10 years. If I come off as preachy, I don't intend it and apologize. I just found that the "eyeroll factor" for how 39 year old me sees 29 year old me was much higher than how 29 year old me looked back at 19 year old me!
- caseysoftware 6y ago
  And it's multi-generational. I'm 40 and my youngest is 3. By the time he's an adult, I'll be 55. If he has kids at 40, I'll be 77 and will never really know his kids, let alone see them grow up. I'd never recommend having kids at 18 but looking more and more like 25-30 is the "right" age.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    no matter what, there will be an n+1 generation of your offspring that you will never meet. my dad was a few years older than you when I (the first child) was born. he'll probably never know my children as adults or meet his great-grandchildren. on the other hand, having a well-established career at the time, he was able to provide much more for my brother and me than he could have if he were 25-30. maybe the material stuff doesn't matter so much, but he had also attained a lot of flexibility in his work schedule by that age. despite being a very busy person, he was able to walk us to school every day and roll into the office around 11am ("flexible hours" generally did not exist in his line of work at the time). he was also able to retire before my brother finished middle school, so he was around for much more of our late childhood than other dads. now I'm in the early phase of my own career and I can get advice from someone who's already lived through a full cycle.
josefresco 6y ago
I'm genuinely curious, who in your life is calling you selfish? Are they specific people, or are you asserting that "society" is making this claim?
- folkhack 6y ago
  Both - even in this thread someone is getting downvoted into oblivion for calling me selfish: > It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness has apparently taken over that generation of young people. It's a very common sentiment and it's usually older family/coworkers. EDIT: now there's even more and weird "you're gonna die alone" comments in there too (which are common as a counter argument for waiting)... just look at this thread and you'll see exactly what I was trying to describe.
  - josefresco 6y ago
    A couple separate issues but first and foremost I'm sorry you are being treated this way. 1. HNers (myself included) are argumentative and treat HN like a debate platform. I wouldn't assign any weight to comments here about issues such as this (or anything for that matter) 2. The people in your real world sound pretty terrible. I can't think of one person who would DARE tell me I'm being selfish for choosing to have kids or not. Maybe it's because I'm a man, or self-confident, or something else but I couldn't even imagine someone saying this to me without it turning into a very unpleasant argument, not to mention me cutting off contact. Did I just luck out with family, peers and coworkers? Maybe. How do you respond?
    - folkhack 6y ago
      I've cut off contact with a huge chunk of my family and my GF's family is way more understanding as they've been living in California for the last 20 years and get that people just have different ways of living for different reasons. They've made marriage comments but they just want us to get hitched since we've been together for so long which I see as way more benign than pushing us for kids. I find it's predominantly a conservative view that comes from religious underpinnings. I also think it comes down to a lot of folks who took the traditional path because "that's what you're suppose to do" who are threatened by alternative life circumstances. I respond with, "we're taking our time to figure things out financially and emotionally to be healthy people" - or something along those lines. It's a 100% genuine answer and usually knocks them off their stance enough that they consider how things may be for someone different than them. I could get into more details but a big reason I deal with this is because I'm the very socially liberal black-sheep that moved to California in my conservative Iowan family. It's just a way for them to dig at me passive-aggressively without outright challenging my views. I've also experienced this in workplaces/offices with uncomfortably strong Christian vibes.
mobilefriendly 6y ago
There's a huge trade-off that you're missing. Fertility drops rapidly in your 30s, especially for women. I'm middle aged and know many women who waited but were unable to conceive.
- thisisnico 6y ago
  It's still doable with enough effort. My best friend at 32 was able to conceive even with medical issues that would make it near impossible. It took 2 years but it happened.
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    It is not certain. You can evaluate odds using tools like https://www.sartcorsonline.com/predictor/patient https://www.sartcorsonline.com/predictor/patient Keep in mind that most women will not undergo an infinite number of treatment cycles, even if they can afford it.
  - gfxgirl 6y ago
    Your anecdote does not prove that effort is what's required. 32 is still a good age but as the numbers go up effort is not what makes this happen. It's luck and the success stories you hear are entirely the lucky few
- scottLobster 6y ago
  Define "waited" https://www.babycenter.com/0_age-and-fertility-getting-pregnant-in-your-30s_1494695.bc https://www.babycenter.com/0_age-and-fertility-getting-pregn... "Every study you read or expert you consult will agree that 35 is a milestone for women when it comes to having children. In your early 30s, your chances of getting pregnant are only slightly lower than in your late 20s, and your risk of having a miscarriage or a baby with Down syndrome is only slightly higher. But at 35, that decline in fertility begins to accelerate." Sure it might take more effort than say mid-twenties, fertility tracking/treatments, etc. But it can be done. And before 35 is certainly doable. If there's one thing I'm grateful to my parents for it's my education. Life in the 21st century requires much higher complexity to achieve similar economic/social success to previous generations, and not just on the technological front. Those with the tools to solve complex problems will do fine, those who lack said tools are going to be bitterly disappointed across most aspects of life, unless we somehow bring back unskilled labor as a middle class profession.
deleted 6y ago
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aantix 6y ago
But it is by definition selfish. You literally have thousands of generations that have gone before you, that have sacrificed to give you those very choices you’ve outlined. Your parents comforted you when you were scared, even to the detriment of their sleep. Fed you, clothed you, shared all of their resources even when they didn’t feel like it, even when it wasn’t to their advantage. Edit: not sure why this is downvoted? “Selfish: lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.”
- aianus 6y ago
  Presumably the “others” referenced in the definition need to actually exist for you to lack consideration for them.
  - folkhack 6y ago
    Agree. And in this situation I would define any potential child as part of the "others" as in "it's selfish for me to have a kid if I'm not prepared financially/emotionally."
  - aantix 6y ago
    False. People take into consideration future people/events all of the time. It’s called planning.
    - HelloMcFly 6y ago
      You know what future events I'm taking into consideration? Devastating climate change and what seems to be the decline of society more generally. I have real concerns about choosing to bring a child into a world that I feel so pessimistic about. That strikes me as thoughtful, not selfish. Though I have many selfish reasons for wanting to not have children, just as everyone who wants children has just as many selfish reasons themselves. I view neither of those things as "bad". Moreover, if I'm going to start considering the impact I have on future generations and people by procreating, where does it stop? Should we have 10 children? Does my duty stop at two when we're replacing ourselves? And given my level of commitment to local and national causes (financial and volunteer hours), does that offset ostensible selfishness of not having children? I'm passionate about helping this world despite having concerns about bringing anyone new into it.
js8 6y ago
> Many folks in my social circles are just less willing to accept the real responsibility of raising a child. You can also accept the responsibility of dying childless. It might be lonely and problematic in other ways. It might even make your life shorter. I wish people would understand that kids are not only responsibility, but also joy, and help. So the grass is not really greener on the either side.
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  > You can also accept the responsibility of dying childless. It might be lonely and problematic in other ways. It might even make your life shorter. Might make your life longer and happier too. Obviously it depends on personal circumstances. > I wish people would understand that kids are not only responsibility, but also joy, and help. So the grass is not really greener on the either side. I think most people _do_ understand that. I would hope that you understand that depending on the circumstances, that joy and help may _not_ outweigh the responsibility and hardships.
  - js8 6y ago
    > I would hope that you understand that depending on the circumstances, that joy and help may _not_ outweigh the responsibility and hardships. It's not really my problem, as I am an anatalist. :-) But I do find the prospect of dying childless somewhat scary. (I have only one brother who is not going to have children either.) If it wasn't for the global warming (and general ecological destruction), I would very much want to have kids.
    - toasterlovin 6y ago
      I’m just gonna be blunt here: opting out of having children for the sake of the environment is incredibly shortsighted. Fixing the environment is a collective action problem. Emphasis on collective: it will take many people working on it directly, advocating for it, voting for it, etc. Opting to not have children just handicaps your cause by removing future people who would likely end up on your team. Don’t do it! Make some babies. Raise them to be good people. The world will be a slightly better place for it. And your life will be made immeasurably better by the purpose and meaning that children bestow upon it.
caseysoftware 6y ago
The problem comes on the other side.. the later you decide to have kids, the more risks involved. For women, risks are low until ~35 or so and get much higher around 40. FTA: > The NCHS data also showed that the share of babies born preterm last year hit its highest level in more than a decade, with just over 1-in-10 being born before 37 weeks of gestation. Having experienced that, it's not something I'd wish on anyone.
- seanalltogether 6y ago
  My wife and I had a kid at 37 and now another at 40. If I could go back in time I would have started a year after marriage at 33.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tehjoker 6y ago
Another way to look at this is that as dual careers have become a necessity, the economy has become so brutally competitive that it has become biologically insufficient for reproducing the working class. There's an element of choice in upper middle class careers, but for most of the population there is no choice. Children are a result of sufficient resources being present (time, energy, supports, and money). Those things are being stripped from us by the employer class. In terms of lack of supports, for example, the United States is one of the only advanced economies without free child care. The right wing is attempting to strip away public education. The physical process of having a child costs thousands of dollars, and sometimes they charge for letting the mother hold her baby right after it is born. Housing requires dual incomes in order to live in a place near jobs that isn't either a slum or too cramped.
gfxgirl 6y ago
You're not selfish. Do what's right you. You could make the argument those having kids are selfish. I'm not going to enumerate all the reasons why but it doesn't take much thought to come up with many. I'm not saying they are selfish, only that people can make the argument either way. Ignore them.
superflit 6y ago
I am making this comment here as a late father of two in good faith. Please consider at least 1/3 of what I am trying to say. "Many folks in my social circles are just less willing to accept the real responsibility of raising a child. We're all late-20-somethings/early 30-somethings and I have the conversation all the time with people who want to wait until things like careers are established," This is the eternal search for the "perfect time", "perfect conditions" as I sometimes said myself: "When I have more time, I will go to the Gym." "When I get more money I will be able to save." "All-in-all I've noticed a big generational gap in thinking on this one because all I hear from tons of older relatives is "sooo when you guys getting married?" ...or even pushing for children before the fact. It feels unnatural and downright weird to field those questions and it's neigh impossible to explain we're just taking our time to enjoy this thing and not rushing into huge commitments with marriage or kids..." No, there is not. I am in my forties and got the same questions. But you know what the real deal is? People are not asking about the children. They are polite, trying to alert you. Alert about: 1. Healthy babies and age of parents -> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3881604/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3881604/ 2. What age will you be when your son wants to play/run at his 16 years? 3. We don't have control of life anytime. You may be Healthy now, but it only takes a disease to change it. 4. One thing is you did not use protection on your 20's and got pregnant another is willing to get pregnant later -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_and_female_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_and_female_fertility Life is a match competition game if you are aware or not. Older ladies compete against younger ladies (more fertile) Man compete with another man for physical security (muscles and tall) or financial security(money, resources). The main problem is sometimes you are having fun with someone that you can't see yourself having a family. Now about the other reasons to not have a baby: 1. The "earth", carbon resources, global warming -> Riiight it seems the propaganda only targets one part of the population that is not the part of the problem. 2. We just need more robots: That will be nice for you to live in a robotic nursery home. "Alexa! Give me my pills". 3. Immigration will complement: different people, different traditions, different morals. Don't get surprised later! Now consider at least 1/3 of what I said in good faith: 1. Are you spending your time with someone you can see raising a family? If not is like sleeping with a poisonous snake in your bedroom. One day it will bite you. 2. Did your past jobs/companies called you on holidays? Invited you for a BBQ? 3. Who profits from high IQ, working hard people not having kids? Have you checked how much a burrito breakfast is charged in a retirement home? How much is "dinner"? (microwave) Please consider it in good faith. What if 1/3 is true?
Cactus2018 6y ago
IDIOCRACY Opening Scene (2006) Mike Judge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA
- LinuxBender 6y ago
  That is one of my favorite documentaries.
- pontifier 6y ago
  This scene is directly responsible for convincing me to reproduce. I saw this movie, and less than a week later met some old dumb guy that said he had over 90 grandchildren. I was convinced I needed to do my part to shift the balance of the future toward intelligence. I now have 3 children, and would love to have many many more.
  - missedthecue 6y ago
    Don't you think that's a little arrogant?
wonderwonder 6y ago
People should have kids when they are ready, if they are ready. One thing those with kids that are actively encouraging you to have them don't tell you is that life as you knew it is pretty much over. This can be a positive or a negative. I have 2 kids that I very much love and am very grateful to have, the oldest being 8 now. I have been exhausted for 8 years. Everything changes. Even something as simple as running out to the food store means rounding the kids up, finding shoes, finding water bottles, getting them in the car, strapping the youngest one in the car seat. Driving to the store while the kids full on fight about the youngest saying he does not like the oldest's favorite color. Getting to the store, having to say no 15 times to everything they pass and want (plastic dinosaur bowels with built in straw). Waiting in line, having to tell them constantly to stop picking up the candy in the checkout line, etc. There are definitely great moments, throwing the ball in the yard, hugs, conversations etc. But these don't detract from the overall exhaustion. I would still choose to have my kids every time if provided the option as I love them and could not imagine not having them but don't let anyone talk you into something you are not ready for.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
lonelappde 6y ago
On a global level, a wealthy person delaying or not having kids is an altruistic gift, avoiding pollution. On a family level, not having kids (ever) is both selfish (if you neither pay back your parents for their effort not pay it forward it to kids of your own) and also vandalism to your parents: genetic heritage.
- folkhack 6y ago
  My parents did plenty to abuse and there's strong history of mental illness, addiction, and genetic disorders on both sides of my family. Is this vandalism? I think not...
- meowfly 6y ago
  I didn't ask to be born, it was forced on me. I don't see why I would have any moral obligation to not vandalize my genetic heritage nor why I would owe anyone taking the responsibility of another life.
  - o-__-o 6y ago
    Re: your deleted comment 19 years ago I built a several TB data warehouse that searched and returned data in a matter of seconds. 10 years ago I built a system that linked several TB of data together and returned data in a matter of milliseconds. Today I work for a company that sifts through hundreds of TB of data, PB of indexes, and GB of associated data that returns in a matter of milliseconds. What I’m saying is if that data warehouse is not a core business operation there is no reason to throw any more resources at it than is necessary. Dystopian nightmares can be enabled by simply adding new indexes or adding more compute nodes.
    - meowfly 6y ago
      Thanks for your reply. I saw most of the replies in that thread were 8-9hrs old so I thought it wasn't the right place to ask. I really appreciate your reply and it sounds like my worries aren't unfounded.
- tjalfi 6y ago
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
It's a real responsibility. The losses are real. I think the key thing is realizing that you don't find real fulfillment in doing what you want. You don't find it in financial success, or in travel. And so you can wind up chasing more money or more travel or more time to do your thing, and never finding that it's enough to satisfy you, because what you're looking for isn't there. This trip won't be enough, and the next one won't either, because what you're hungry for isn't in a trip. Children can help you learn that. If you have children and don't learn it, then you resent the children. "I didn't find what I was looking for, but I could have, if they didn't mess it up for me!" But I'm not sure that I can explain this in a way that makes sense to someone who doesn't already kind of feel it...
- folkhack 6y ago
  Nah - I appreciated the comment and really agree with it. Life isn't just black and white, and simplifying it to that is reductionist to the weird minutia that makes up the brilliance of this whole experience. Things just have been admittedly rocky for me through my life, and I'll fully own that too - it's what you do with your situation that matters. In some ways I'm stunted in comparison to lots of the folks here and have had to live my teens in my 20's, and a bit of my 20's into my 30's. I get that I'm a grown-ass-adult and all, but I'm still growing up, hence the "I'm not into this whole kids thing."
brnt 6y ago
I think part of the error in this train of thought is thinking having kids is a huge responsibility. Naturally speaking, its the most straightforward thing. We've made it into a huge responsibility.
- boardwaalk 6y ago
  I probably wouldn’t call it an error and say “having kids needs to be” rather than “having kids is”. It’s reasonable to speak inside the inside the big walls society puts up without specifying so. Unless you’re willing to go to the extreme of somehow going off the grid and home schooling (and god forbid you have health care issues, for example), it’s just the way it is.
cylinder 6y ago
people should have kids, I think the "no kids" thing is really just a modern American concept. It's fine to wait and plan but I feel sorry for people who say they don't want kids because of what they are reading in global news or whatever. humans have raised children through far worse conditions than now! Stressful only if you make it. Tiring for everyone, but that's different. Even if you go broke and end up living in a trailer in the sticks it's still ok to have had kids and they will be ok.
bradlys 6y ago
> Anecdotal: Many folks in my social circles are just less willing to accept the real responsibility of raising a child. We're all late-20-somethings/early 30-somethings and I have the conversation all the time with people who want to wait until things like careers are established, until they have a chance to seriously travel a bit, and most commonly they just want to enjoy a relationship without the stress of kids. Kids are an insanely huge responsibility, and to parent right all of your life priorities change completely. I don't meet these people often (I'll be 30/dead in a few months). Most of the people I meet are just not interested in kids - or they already have them. The bank of mom & dad helps with that down payment so they can start pumping out children. I've had friends who gave up on children - they were satisfied being the cool aunt and uncle. I imagine the financial pressure has some influence like it does for me. Personally - I'm at such a financial burden that I don't know when it'll happen. I quite literally cannot imagine having kids or being excited about them because I find it so hard to even get further in my career with financial prospects. Children is a complete non-starter if I don't have the income to support them. And I don't want them to ever live anything close to what I grew up with - the generational poverty line stops with me. It's not like I have a partner who could have kids right now anyway. (My significant other is about to be gone for ~2 years to finish her degree) I can't imagine having kids when I hate my jobs so much (agonizing) and feel like I get paid peanuts (half or less than what my peers make at bigger places). So - I'll wait. No sense in having kids when I'm miserable AF because I can't get what I want or need to support them. Maybe they'll never happen. Maybe my significant other will find a new partner who has rich parents. Maybe I'll be single forever more. Whatever.
- diddid 6y ago
  "Don't wait for the perfect moment, take the moment and make it perfect" While there is definitely bad timing when it comes to kids, there is never a perfect time. I waited because I didn't really care but now I wish I hadn't. Every year you wait is one less year you get to know them. They are selfish little jerks that could change the way you think and give you a renewed purpose. As long as you can provide food, shelter, love and imagination you don't need anything else and neither will they. Maybe now really is a bad time for you though as it's hard to know without stepping in your shoes. But if you really want them, I genuinely hope you find that just-perfect-enough moment.
toasterlovin 6y ago
Other people sacrificed a lot so you could enjoy this thing called life. I think that saddles you with a burden of paying the debt forward to your children. After all, you’re the only person who can bestow the gift of life on them.
- ryanwaggoner 6y ago
  I think many people agree with you, maybe even just on a subconscious level. But I’m not sure that it’s a good argument. Doesn’t that logic imply that you have a duty to bestow life on as many children as possible? It’s not just your first and second child that are owed the gift of life that only you can bestow. It’s also the 14th and 15th and so on, right?
  - toasterlovin 6y ago
    If you sacrifice your entire life to have children, that would be very admirable, but then you wouldn’t have any life left to enjoy yourself. At that point, you’re no longer merely paying things forward. So no, I don’t think my logic implies that you have to have as many children as possible. In my opinion, the magic number is 2. When you have two children, you are keeping the number of humans alive constant (since it takes two people to have a child, you only get “credit” for half of each child). Everything beyond that is purely up to you to balance the sacred work of creating human lives vs. enjoying your own pursuits.

Press2forEN 6y ago

For two months, lockdown protesters have been called selfish for the perception that they stand in opposition to what their detractors believe is a more important obligation to wider society over their personal concerns. By the same token, having children is essential to maintain the social welfare state, and those that choose to travel or maintain a career instead are currently benefiting from that state while not contributing future workers back to it. I don't know what the solution is, but short of dismantling the welfare state, there needs to be a concern on the part of today's young people for the perpetuation of the system from which they benefited so greatly.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
> having children is essential to maintain the social welfare state That's not actually true though - immigration happily supports the required population growth. When the whole world stops reproducing we may need a plan B, but that's not a problem right now.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jlawson 6y ago
  It is a problem right now. Look at the map [0]. Aside from some minor exceptions, the whole world is at or below replacement rates, except sub-Saharan Africa. Look at the other map [1]. Those are the places with the lowest IQ in the world. Some exceptional individuals aside, Africa isn't going to replace China or India as a source of mass high-quality immigrants. So as soon as China and India develop a bit, and as their low birth rates set in, their people will stop leaving and that'll be it. There will still be poaching of the best but there won't be mass pools of capable people willing to move in to fill the bottom of your social pyramid. What can't go on forever won't. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_birth_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nations_and_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nations_and_intelligence
  - 411111111111111 6y ago
    The world population increased from 2.5 billion in 1950 to almost 8billion today and you're worried about birth date? Really? Let it decrease and hopefully we'll get back into a more sustainable population size.
    - cmurf 6y ago
      How do you grow an economy with negative birth rates?
      - ryanwaggoner 6y ago
        Productivity gains. Global GDP per capita has exploded since 1950.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    You don't think the same socioeconomic forces will come into play on other developing nations as they follow the same sort of progression as China and India? Are you arguing that Africa is just inherently less intelligent?
folkhack 6y ago
> there needs to be a concern on the part of today's young people for the perpetuation of the system from which they benefited so greatly It also seems like the system that will throw me overboard and tell me to "pull myself up by the bootstraps" the moment I hit turbulent times.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  Given current events, the argument could be made that it'll also throw you overboard the minute it hits turbulent times as well. Rough seas ahead, somebody is going in the water.
  - folkhack 6y ago
    Right now I feel for the folks that physically have to be on the front-line of all of this to the point I'll say we did throw a lot of them overboard. I'm afraid someone will go off on me for saying this, in regards to unemployment - I do not believe many of these jobs are ever coming back... and I think we've got a recession on our hands that's about to make 2008 look like a stroll through the tulips. We're just in the quiet before the storm =( I don't think enough people here get how lucky most HNers are to be on the right side of the class divide, especially now.
    - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
      Given that this recession was largely artificial - in the sense it's not the market pausing itself, I have no idea if this will prove to be a bad one or not - I don't think we've ever seen anything like this before. But I do share the same fear you have, that the jobs aren't coming back. I think for a lot of companies the skeleton crew will become the normal crew, and as always more will be done with less to the detriment of everyone who isn't still employed.
- RestlessMind 6y ago
  > It also seems like the system that will throw me overboard ... the moment I hit turbulent times. Which is why having a set of people who are close to you is so priceless. Ultimately, your family and your best friends are more likely to be there for you than any government run program.
gowld 6y ago
That's what robots are for.

nathanaldensr 6y ago

It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness has apparently taken over that generation of young people. Our society and culture are doomed if this doesn't change.

devin 6y ago
OK, boomer. (Couldn't resist. I'll take the downvotes.)
- spicyramen 6y ago
  It is always funny how people without kids tell you how life is with kids...and try to teach the world about it...
  - CogitoCogito 6y ago
    > It is always funny how people without kids tell you how life is with kids...and try to teach the world about it... In my experience I mainly hear about those who've had kids telling people about how life is without kids. Of course they've all been in that position before they had kids, but they certainly have no experience of a lifetime without children. People always seem to believe their wisdom is much greater than the sum of their experience.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - detaro 6y ago
    Wrong thread?
  - josefresco 6y ago
    As a nearly 40-something I find I most funny when 20-somethings tell me how the world should be.
kingkawn 6y ago
It is easily arguable that given the overpopulation of the planet and looming risks of climate change that the people delaying or choosing against having kids are saving the future for humanity.

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago

> Also, with religious stresses being almost non-existent in the groups I run in I feel like people aren't jumping into legally-binding marriages I’ve made the same observation, I think “common law” marriage is becoming a big thing. I also notice it’s not a mutually-appreciated situation for many couples long term, usually with one partner wanting to enter into a legal marriage but not the other for various reasons.

Spooky23 6y ago

I'm a little older, and while I wouldn't be worried about what strangers think about your choices, you may find your own perspective change if you have kids. I know in my circle of friends and favily, we waited longer than we wanted do due to things out of our control, but ended up being about "average" age for having a first child in our circle. Many of our circle who waited until late 30s/early 40s are very torn up with having waited, as the reality that they are going to miss certain things sets in. Life moves fast, and our modern world tends to make you prioritize things that don't really matter. Your relatives may be annoying, but in most cases, they are probably trying to express how they grew to feel. From my personal pov, watching or working with my 8 year old isn't some obligation that I have to do, it's incredible and more relevant to me that some stupid IT project that I'll barely remember in 10 years. If I come off as preachy, I don't intend it and apologize. I just found that the "eyeroll factor" for how 39 year old me sees 29 year old me was much higher than how 29 year old me looked back at 19 year old me!

caseysoftware 6y ago
And it's multi-generational. I'm 40 and my youngest is 3. By the time he's an adult, I'll be 55. If he has kids at 40, I'll be 77 and will never really know his kids, let alone see them grow up. I'd never recommend having kids at 18 but looking more and more like 25-30 is the "right" age.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  no matter what, there will be an n+1 generation of your offspring that you will never meet. my dad was a few years older than you when I (the first child) was born. he'll probably never know my children as adults or meet his great-grandchildren. on the other hand, having a well-established career at the time, he was able to provide much more for my brother and me than he could have if he were 25-30. maybe the material stuff doesn't matter so much, but he had also attained a lot of flexibility in his work schedule by that age. despite being a very busy person, he was able to walk us to school every day and roll into the office around 11am ("flexible hours" generally did not exist in his line of work at the time). he was also able to retire before my brother finished middle school, so he was around for much more of our late childhood than other dads. now I'm in the early phase of my own career and I can get advice from someone who's already lived through a full cycle.

josefresco 6y ago

I'm genuinely curious, who in your life is calling you selfish? Are they specific people, or are you asserting that "society" is making this claim?

folkhack 6y ago
Both - even in this thread someone is getting downvoted into oblivion for calling me selfish: > It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness has apparently taken over that generation of young people. It's a very common sentiment and it's usually older family/coworkers. EDIT: now there's even more and weird "you're gonna die alone" comments in there too (which are common as a counter argument for waiting)... just look at this thread and you'll see exactly what I was trying to describe.
- josefresco 6y ago
  A couple separate issues but first and foremost I'm sorry you are being treated this way. 1. HNers (myself included) are argumentative and treat HN like a debate platform. I wouldn't assign any weight to comments here about issues such as this (or anything for that matter) 2. The people in your real world sound pretty terrible. I can't think of one person who would DARE tell me I'm being selfish for choosing to have kids or not. Maybe it's because I'm a man, or self-confident, or something else but I couldn't even imagine someone saying this to me without it turning into a very unpleasant argument, not to mention me cutting off contact. Did I just luck out with family, peers and coworkers? Maybe. How do you respond?
  - folkhack 6y ago
    I've cut off contact with a huge chunk of my family and my GF's family is way more understanding as they've been living in California for the last 20 years and get that people just have different ways of living for different reasons. They've made marriage comments but they just want us to get hitched since we've been together for so long which I see as way more benign than pushing us for kids. I find it's predominantly a conservative view that comes from religious underpinnings. I also think it comes down to a lot of folks who took the traditional path because "that's what you're suppose to do" who are threatened by alternative life circumstances. I respond with, "we're taking our time to figure things out financially and emotionally to be healthy people" - or something along those lines. It's a 100% genuine answer and usually knocks them off their stance enough that they consider how things may be for someone different than them. I could get into more details but a big reason I deal with this is because I'm the very socially liberal black-sheep that moved to California in my conservative Iowan family. It's just a way for them to dig at me passive-aggressively without outright challenging my views. I've also experienced this in workplaces/offices with uncomfortably strong Christian vibes.

mobilefriendly 6y ago

There's a huge trade-off that you're missing. Fertility drops rapidly in your 30s, especially for women. I'm middle aged and know many women who waited but were unable to conceive.

thisisnico 6y ago
It's still doable with enough effort. My best friend at 32 was able to conceive even with medical issues that would make it near impossible. It took 2 years but it happened.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  It is not certain. You can evaluate odds using tools like https://www.sartcorsonline.com/predictor/patient https://www.sartcorsonline.com/predictor/patient Keep in mind that most women will not undergo an infinite number of treatment cycles, even if they can afford it.
- gfxgirl 6y ago
  Your anecdote does not prove that effort is what's required. 32 is still a good age but as the numbers go up effort is not what makes this happen. It's luck and the success stories you hear are entirely the lucky few
scottLobster 6y ago
Define "waited" https://www.babycenter.com/0_age-and-fertility-getting-pregnant-in-your-30s_1494695.bc https://www.babycenter.com/0_age-and-fertility-getting-pregn... "Every study you read or expert you consult will agree that 35 is a milestone for women when it comes to having children. In your early 30s, your chances of getting pregnant are only slightly lower than in your late 20s, and your risk of having a miscarriage or a baby with Down syndrome is only slightly higher. But at 35, that decline in fertility begins to accelerate." Sure it might take more effort than say mid-twenties, fertility tracking/treatments, etc. But it can be done. And before 35 is certainly doable. If there's one thing I'm grateful to my parents for it's my education. Life in the 21st century requires much higher complexity to achieve similar economic/social success to previous generations, and not just on the technological front. Those with the tools to solve complex problems will do fine, those who lack said tools are going to be bitterly disappointed across most aspects of life, unless we somehow bring back unskilled labor as a middle class profession.

deleted 6y ago

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aantix 6y ago

But it is by definition selfish. You literally have thousands of generations that have gone before you, that have sacrificed to give you those very choices you’ve outlined. Your parents comforted you when you were scared, even to the detriment of their sleep. Fed you, clothed you, shared all of their resources even when they didn’t feel like it, even when it wasn’t to their advantage. Edit: not sure why this is downvoted? “Selfish: lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.”

aianus 6y ago
Presumably the “others” referenced in the definition need to actually exist for you to lack consideration for them.
- folkhack 6y ago
  Agree. And in this situation I would define any potential child as part of the "others" as in "it's selfish for me to have a kid if I'm not prepared financially/emotionally."
- aantix 6y ago
  False. People take into consideration future people/events all of the time. It’s called planning.
  - HelloMcFly 6y ago
    You know what future events I'm taking into consideration? Devastating climate change and what seems to be the decline of society more generally. I have real concerns about choosing to bring a child into a world that I feel so pessimistic about. That strikes me as thoughtful, not selfish. Though I have many selfish reasons for wanting to not have children, just as everyone who wants children has just as many selfish reasons themselves. I view neither of those things as "bad". Moreover, if I'm going to start considering the impact I have on future generations and people by procreating, where does it stop? Should we have 10 children? Does my duty stop at two when we're replacing ourselves? And given my level of commitment to local and national causes (financial and volunteer hours), does that offset ostensible selfishness of not having children? I'm passionate about helping this world despite having concerns about bringing anyone new into it.

js8 6y ago

> Many folks in my social circles are just less willing to accept the real responsibility of raising a child. You can also accept the responsibility of dying childless. It might be lonely and problematic in other ways. It might even make your life shorter. I wish people would understand that kids are not only responsibility, but also joy, and help. So the grass is not really greener on the either side.

CogitoCogito 6y ago
> You can also accept the responsibility of dying childless. It might be lonely and problematic in other ways. It might even make your life shorter. Might make your life longer and happier too. Obviously it depends on personal circumstances. > I wish people would understand that kids are not only responsibility, but also joy, and help. So the grass is not really greener on the either side. I think most people _do_ understand that. I would hope that you understand that depending on the circumstances, that joy and help may _not_ outweigh the responsibility and hardships.
- js8 6y ago
  > I would hope that you understand that depending on the circumstances, that joy and help may _not_ outweigh the responsibility and hardships. It's not really my problem, as I am an anatalist. :-) But I do find the prospect of dying childless somewhat scary. (I have only one brother who is not going to have children either.) If it wasn't for the global warming (and general ecological destruction), I would very much want to have kids.
  - toasterlovin 6y ago
    I’m just gonna be blunt here: opting out of having children for the sake of the environment is incredibly shortsighted. Fixing the environment is a collective action problem. Emphasis on collective: it will take many people working on it directly, advocating for it, voting for it, etc. Opting to not have children just handicaps your cause by removing future people who would likely end up on your team. Don’t do it! Make some babies. Raise them to be good people. The world will be a slightly better place for it. And your life will be made immeasurably better by the purpose and meaning that children bestow upon it.

caseysoftware 6y ago

The problem comes on the other side.. the later you decide to have kids, the more risks involved. For women, risks are low until ~35 or so and get much higher around 40. FTA: > The NCHS data also showed that the share of babies born preterm last year hit its highest level in more than a decade, with just over 1-in-10 being born before 37 weeks of gestation. Having experienced that, it's not something I'd wish on anyone.

seanalltogether 6y ago
My wife and I had a kid at 37 and now another at 40. If I could go back in time I would have started a year after marriage at 33.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tehjoker 6y ago

Another way to look at this is that as dual careers have become a necessity, the economy has become so brutally competitive that it has become biologically insufficient for reproducing the working class. There's an element of choice in upper middle class careers, but for most of the population there is no choice. Children are a result of sufficient resources being present (time, energy, supports, and money). Those things are being stripped from us by the employer class. In terms of lack of supports, for example, the United States is one of the only advanced economies without free child care. The right wing is attempting to strip away public education. The physical process of having a child costs thousands of dollars, and sometimes they charge for letting the mother hold her baby right after it is born. Housing requires dual incomes in order to live in a place near jobs that isn't either a slum or too cramped.

gfxgirl 6y ago

You're not selfish. Do what's right you. You could make the argument those having kids are selfish. I'm not going to enumerate all the reasons why but it doesn't take much thought to come up with many. I'm not saying they are selfish, only that people can make the argument either way. Ignore them.

superflit 6y ago

I am making this comment here as a late father of two in good faith. Please consider at least 1/3 of what I am trying to say. "Many folks in my social circles are just less willing to accept the real responsibility of raising a child. We're all late-20-somethings/early 30-somethings and I have the conversation all the time with people who want to wait until things like careers are established," This is the eternal search for the "perfect time", "perfect conditions" as I sometimes said myself: "When I have more time, I will go to the Gym." "When I get more money I will be able to save." "All-in-all I've noticed a big generational gap in thinking on this one because all I hear from tons of older relatives is "sooo when you guys getting married?" ...or even pushing for children before the fact. It feels unnatural and downright weird to field those questions and it's neigh impossible to explain we're just taking our time to enjoy this thing and not rushing into huge commitments with marriage or kids..." No, there is not. I am in my forties and got the same questions. But you know what the real deal is? People are not asking about the children. They are polite, trying to alert you. Alert about: 1. Healthy babies and age of parents -> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3881604/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3881604/ 2. What age will you be when your son wants to play/run at his 16 years? 3. We don't have control of life anytime. You may be Healthy now, but it only takes a disease to change it. 4. One thing is you did not use protection on your 20's and got pregnant another is willing to get pregnant later -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_and_female_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_and_female_fertility Life is a match competition game if you are aware or not. Older ladies compete against younger ladies (more fertile) Man compete with another man for physical security (muscles and tall) or financial security(money, resources). The main problem is sometimes you are having fun with someone that you can't see yourself having a family. Now about the other reasons to not have a baby: 1. The "earth", carbon resources, global warming -> Riiight it seems the propaganda only targets one part of the population that is not the part of the problem. 2. We just need more robots: That will be nice for you to live in a robotic nursery home. "Alexa! Give me my pills". 3. Immigration will complement: different people, different traditions, different morals. Don't get surprised later! Now consider at least 1/3 of what I said in good faith: 1. Are you spending your time with someone you can see raising a family? If not is like sleeping with a poisonous snake in your bedroom. One day it will bite you. 2. Did your past jobs/companies called you on holidays? Invited you for a BBQ? 3. Who profits from high IQ, working hard people not having kids? Have you checked how much a burrito breakfast is charged in a retirement home? How much is "dinner"? (microwave) Please consider it in good faith. What if 1/3 is true?

Cactus2018 6y ago

IDIOCRACY Opening Scene (2006) Mike Judge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA

LinuxBender 6y ago
That is one of my favorite documentaries.
pontifier 6y ago
This scene is directly responsible for convincing me to reproduce. I saw this movie, and less than a week later met some old dumb guy that said he had over 90 grandchildren. I was convinced I needed to do my part to shift the balance of the future toward intelligence. I now have 3 children, and would love to have many many more.
- missedthecue 6y ago
  Don't you think that's a little arrogant?

wonderwonder 6y ago

People should have kids when they are ready, if they are ready. One thing those with kids that are actively encouraging you to have them don't tell you is that life as you knew it is pretty much over. This can be a positive or a negative. I have 2 kids that I very much love and am very grateful to have, the oldest being 8 now. I have been exhausted for 8 years. Everything changes. Even something as simple as running out to the food store means rounding the kids up, finding shoes, finding water bottles, getting them in the car, strapping the youngest one in the car seat. Driving to the store while the kids full on fight about the youngest saying he does not like the oldest's favorite color. Getting to the store, having to say no 15 times to everything they pass and want (plastic dinosaur bowels with built in straw). Waiting in line, having to tell them constantly to stop picking up the candy in the checkout line, etc. There are definitely great moments, throwing the ball in the yard, hugs, conversations etc. But these don't detract from the overall exhaustion. I would still choose to have my kids every time if provided the option as I love them and could not imagine not having them but don't let anyone talk you into something you are not ready for.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

lonelappde 6y ago

On a global level, a wealthy person delaying or not having kids is an altruistic gift, avoiding pollution. On a family level, not having kids (ever) is both selfish (if you neither pay back your parents for their effort not pay it forward it to kids of your own) and also vandalism to your parents: genetic heritage.

folkhack 6y ago
My parents did plenty to abuse and there's strong history of mental illness, addiction, and genetic disorders on both sides of my family. Is this vandalism? I think not...
meowfly 6y ago
I didn't ask to be born, it was forced on me. I don't see why I would have any moral obligation to not vandalize my genetic heritage nor why I would owe anyone taking the responsibility of another life.
- o-__-o 6y ago
  Re: your deleted comment 19 years ago I built a several TB data warehouse that searched and returned data in a matter of seconds. 10 years ago I built a system that linked several TB of data together and returned data in a matter of milliseconds. Today I work for a company that sifts through hundreds of TB of data, PB of indexes, and GB of associated data that returns in a matter of milliseconds. What I’m saying is if that data warehouse is not a core business operation there is no reason to throw any more resources at it than is necessary. Dystopian nightmares can be enabled by simply adding new indexes or adding more compute nodes.
  - meowfly 6y ago
    Thanks for your reply. I saw most of the replies in that thread were 8-9hrs old so I thought it wasn't the right place to ask. I really appreciate your reply and it sounds like my worries aren't unfounded.
tjalfi 6y ago

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

It's a real responsibility. The losses are real. I think the key thing is realizing that you don't find real fulfillment in doing what you want. You don't find it in financial success, or in travel. And so you can wind up chasing more money or more travel or more time to do your thing, and never finding that it's enough to satisfy you, because what you're looking for isn't there. This trip won't be enough, and the next one won't either, because what you're hungry for isn't in a trip. Children can help you learn that. If you have children and don't learn it, then you resent the children. "I didn't find what I was looking for, but I could have, if they didn't mess it up for me!" But I'm not sure that I can explain this in a way that makes sense to someone who doesn't already kind of feel it...

folkhack 6y ago
Nah - I appreciated the comment and really agree with it. Life isn't just black and white, and simplifying it to that is reductionist to the weird minutia that makes up the brilliance of this whole experience. Things just have been admittedly rocky for me through my life, and I'll fully own that too - it's what you do with your situation that matters. In some ways I'm stunted in comparison to lots of the folks here and have had to live my teens in my 20's, and a bit of my 20's into my 30's. I get that I'm a grown-ass-adult and all, but I'm still growing up, hence the "I'm not into this whole kids thing."

brnt 6y ago

I think part of the error in this train of thought is thinking having kids is a huge responsibility. Naturally speaking, its the most straightforward thing. We've made it into a huge responsibility.

boardwaalk 6y ago
I probably wouldn’t call it an error and say “having kids needs to be” rather than “having kids is”. It’s reasonable to speak inside the inside the big walls society puts up without specifying so. Unless you’re willing to go to the extreme of somehow going off the grid and home schooling (and god forbid you have health care issues, for example), it’s just the way it is.

cylinder 6y ago

people should have kids, I think the "no kids" thing is really just a modern American concept. It's fine to wait and plan but I feel sorry for people who say they don't want kids because of what they are reading in global news or whatever. humans have raised children through far worse conditions than now! Stressful only if you make it. Tiring for everyone, but that's different. Even if you go broke and end up living in a trailer in the sticks it's still ok to have had kids and they will be ok.

bradlys 6y ago

> Anecdotal: Many folks in my social circles are just less willing to accept the real responsibility of raising a child. We're all late-20-somethings/early 30-somethings and I have the conversation all the time with people who want to wait until things like careers are established, until they have a chance to seriously travel a bit, and most commonly they just want to enjoy a relationship without the stress of kids. Kids are an insanely huge responsibility, and to parent right all of your life priorities change completely. I don't meet these people often (I'll be 30/dead in a few months). Most of the people I meet are just not interested in kids - or they already have them. The bank of mom & dad helps with that down payment so they can start pumping out children. I've had friends who gave up on children - they were satisfied being the cool aunt and uncle. I imagine the financial pressure has some influence like it does for me. Personally - I'm at such a financial burden that I don't know when it'll happen. I quite literally cannot imagine having kids or being excited about them because I find it so hard to even get further in my career with financial prospects. Children is a complete non-starter if I don't have the income to support them. And I don't want them to ever live anything close to what I grew up with - the generational poverty line stops with me. It's not like I have a partner who could have kids right now anyway. (My significant other is about to be gone for ~2 years to finish her degree) I can't imagine having kids when I hate my jobs so much (agonizing) and feel like I get paid peanuts (half or less than what my peers make at bigger places). So - I'll wait. No sense in having kids when I'm miserable AF because I can't get what I want or need to support them. Maybe they'll never happen. Maybe my significant other will find a new partner who has rich parents. Maybe I'll be single forever more. Whatever.

diddid 6y ago
"Don't wait for the perfect moment, take the moment and make it perfect" While there is definitely bad timing when it comes to kids, there is never a perfect time. I waited because I didn't really care but now I wish I hadn't. Every year you wait is one less year you get to know them. They are selfish little jerks that could change the way you think and give you a renewed purpose. As long as you can provide food, shelter, love and imagination you don't need anything else and neither will they. Maybe now really is a bad time for you though as it's hard to know without stepping in your shoes. But if you really want them, I genuinely hope you find that just-perfect-enough moment.

toasterlovin 6y ago

Other people sacrificed a lot so you could enjoy this thing called life. I think that saddles you with a burden of paying the debt forward to your children. After all, you’re the only person who can bestow the gift of life on them.

ryanwaggoner 6y ago
I think many people agree with you, maybe even just on a subconscious level. But I’m not sure that it’s a good argument. Doesn’t that logic imply that you have a duty to bestow life on as many children as possible? It’s not just your first and second child that are owed the gift of life that only you can bestow. It’s also the 14th and 15th and so on, right?
- toasterlovin 6y ago
  If you sacrifice your entire life to have children, that would be very admirable, but then you wouldn’t have any life left to enjoy yourself. At that point, you’re no longer merely paying things forward. So no, I don’t think my logic implies that you have to have as many children as possible. In my opinion, the magic number is 2. When you have two children, you are keeping the number of humans alive constant (since it takes two people to have a child, you only get “credit” for half of each child). Everything beyond that is purely up to you to balance the sacred work of creating human lives vs. enjoying your own pursuits.