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Florida scientist fired for refusing to manipulate Covid-19 data

736 points by tmountain 6y ago

HumblyTossed 6y ago
> Rebekah Jones said in an email to FLORIDA TODAY that she single-handedly created two applications in two languages, four dashboards, six unique maps with layers of data functionality for 32 variables covering a half a million lines of data. Her objective was to create a way for Floridians and researchers to see what the COVID-19 situation was in real time. She will not have a hard time finding further employment.
- Mikeb85 6y ago
  Assuming she told the truth. Governments typically love bureaucracy and massive projects, seems odd they'd fund any sort of website or app created by a solo dev...
  - enraged_camel 6y ago
    Wow, it's incredible how many people are implying/assuming that she's some sort of nasty liar.
    - Mikeb85 6y ago
      And it's incredible how many people are believing her despite the fact she literally provided no evidence of any kind to back up her allegations. Not an email, a text, a screenshot, example of where code or data was changed, absolutely nothing except an email to a local newspaper with next to no details.
      - cpncrunch 6y ago
        The tampabay news story linked elsewhere has the info. She didnt want to remove unconfirmed cases. Not looking good for her.
    - HumblyTossed 6y ago
      Yeah, after De Santis got lawyers involved to keep a paper from seeking information about the coronavirus at elder care facilities, I'd be more inclined to not believe my (I'm a Floridian) state Government. De Santis is a mini Trump.
henriquez 6y ago
> she was fired because she was ordered to censor some data, but refused to "manually change data to drum up support for the plan to reopen." > > She provided no further details. We’re gonna need some more meat on this bone. The facts presented do not support the headline.
- coding123 6y ago
  While I don't disagree that we need more information, basically the only person that is qualified to suggest what was asked to be changed is the person fired, so if you don't take her word for it, then the state of Florida officials that want to bury this, are going to win.
  - xamuel 6y ago
    >basically the only person that is qualified to suggest what was asked to be changed is the person fired What? By this logic, it would be virtually impossible to fire anyone who was willing to lie about what was said behind closed doors. Not saying the person in the article is lying, but I hope we haven't devolved to a state where individuals can make claims about wrongful termination and just automatically be assumed to be telling the truth. We have courts of law and discovery processes and things like that.
    - nickff 6y ago
      I agree that considered judgement is desirable, but it seems that the recent surge in so-called 'cancel culture' has put an end to thoughfulness and patience.
    - loa_in_ 6y ago
      You hopefully do realize that obviously in case of wrongful termination the state has incentive to cover it up. And... She's the only person fighting on her side and no lawyer has incentive to take a potentially losing battle against order of magnitude bigger opponent.
      - 6y ago
kuyan 6y ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23231237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23231237
- brlewis 6y ago
  Previously, responsibility for the dashboard was taken away. The firing is new.
  - mehrdadn 6y ago
    Huh? I don't think so... the previous article points to this article.
- danso 6y ago
  FWIW, I submitted that thread which is sourced to CBS12, because I had thought (mistakenly [0]) that it would be more accessible to EU users. However, the CBS12 story is essentially a summation of the floridatoday.com story, with some additional followup comment from the fired scientist. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23231757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23231757
FriendlyNormie 6y ago
The data is faulty, we can only start collecting data again after hospitals are no longer paid 39k USD as a reward for killing you and putting COVID-19 on the death certificate. You’re all complete morons. You need to be forcibly disempowered from having any say in any political process, you’re all too stupid to make decisions that matter.
psychometry 6y ago
We need more info here, but I think everyone pretty much saw this coming in red states.
xamuel 6y ago
makomk posted an interesting comment on another thread here 12 hours ago, which I'll paste below. (from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23233097 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23233097) I think I've got a good guess what data she didn't want removed or changed, and it's not exactly good for her case. On May the 5th, they day she was removed from her position, there was an all-time high spike of 113 reported coronavirus deaths due to Florida reporting a bunch of old deaths all at once: https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/15/florida-adds-43-coronavirus-deaths-as-state-continues-to-reopen/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/15/florida-adds... This did not represent an actual spike in deaths which had in reality been declining, but if I remember rightly some people did spin it as deaths increasing due to the lockdown being lifted. Deaths by date reported are conspicuously missing from the current version of the dashboard; it only has dates by date of death, which is far less favourable to the claim that lifting the lockdown is causing an increase in deaths.
- drewcon 6y ago
  Massachusetts (where I live) just retroactively restated their case and death data by test/death date vs. reporting date so it more closely aligns to when a person was experiencing sickness or death. I find it far more useful now. The curve is now smoother, and you can see just how lumpy reporting timing was making daily releases of numbers. It has the knock on effect of making the numbers for the last seven or so days liable to change every day, but it’s still a better picture of what’s going on. This should be the norm.
  - sanderjd 6y ago
    Colorado includes all of this information. It is useful to see it in different ways. But I have definitely found the deaths-by-date-of-death to be the most useful (it is also the most encouraging).
    - koheripbal 6y ago
      > I have definitely found the deaths-by-date-of-death to be the most useful Tracking deaths is actually the worst, most lagging indicator. It takes a very long time to die. The most useful was the CDC tracking cases-by-illness-onset, that gave you a great understanding of what the trend line really looked like over the last couple of days.
pacala 6y ago
Full title: Florida scientist was fired for 'refusing to manipulate' COVID-19 data, she said
- mellosouls 6y ago
  Don't know why you have been down-voted, the title has been significantly editorialised! Maybe she was fired for the reasons she claimed, but lets have some diligence at least in our representation and reading of the article, and respect the rules of this site.
downerending 6y ago
This article has a bit more detail, particularly on her email to users. It reads a bit like "I am virtuous, my bosses are scoundrels, and you should expect my successors to be liars". It's possible that there really is fire here, but that's a textbook example of how not to blow the whistle and be seen as credible. https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-reassigning-her-emails-show/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-heal...
- gottareply2020 6y ago
  "that's a textbook example of how not to blow the whistle and be seen as credible." Considering that the last 2 years is full of whistle blowers that acted credibly and saw nothing happen, I doubt she cared about the larger optics. The data manger was probably more concerned with an immediate, clear response to users of the data.
  - neltnerb 6y ago
    And obviously being paid as per her first quoted remark. It's different to be a whistle blower when you aren't sitting on a big savings account, other people's problems stop being a high priority.
- vaidhy 6y ago
  >It's possible that there really is fire here, but that's a textbook example of how not to blow the whistle and be seen as credible. For some reason, this statement strikes me as being cruel to someone who is willing to take a stand on moral principles. For someone to buck the orders, it takes a lot of courage and be able to stand up under pressure. There are no textbook examples of how to whistleblow and I think we owe these people who are willing to call out problems as they see it a more charitable hearing.
  - gowld 6y ago
    Problem is "someone who is willing to take a stand on moral principles" looks the same as "someone who was caught with their hand in the cookie jar and claims to be a victim".
socrates1998 6y ago
Another example of the people who control the data often can control the narrative that they want. The irony that data is supposed to have more truth to it than narratives is not lost on me. Regardless of the details of this example, it's scary how in the dark the public is for something that is insanely important to live and death.
- xamuel 6y ago
  Amen. And the weirdest part is it seems like whenever people manipulate the data, it's always to support whatever narrative I oppose. Any time the data supports the narrative I favor, said data is reliable and trustworthy. Has anyone else noticed this? Isn't it weird?
  - rhacker 6y ago
    Even if we have all this math at our disposal, there's always a way to include all data points you have private access to show the outcome you want. It would be useful if we had some kind of open record act, as long as it doesn't reveal PII - if a government agency shows us a graph, we should have the means to duplicate it by getting access to the raw data (clipped of PII - i.e. Date of Birth turns into age range buckets) Probably a no-go, but I'm just saying data can be manipulated if you don't have unfettered access to it. I'm not saying this to support this specific case - just pondering a possible answer to your question.
- brlewis 6y ago
  I'm drawing the opposite conclusion. That it's hard to conspire to keep the public in the dark about data, due to the large number of people involved in gathering, processing, and presenting it.
throwawaysea 6y ago
This person is alleging that Florida is looking to understate deaths, presumably to support their reopening plans. There are also stories of states overstating deaths as well (see https://www.freedomfoundation.com/washington/washington-state-over-reporting-covid-19-deaths/ https://www.freedomfoundation.com/washington/washington-stat...), presumably to support their intent to retain strict restrictions. I am guessing generally, there is less malice involved than people ascribe to these situations. We don't have all the facts or perspectives, so let's take things slowly, wait for more information to come out, and analyze the facts with the full picture in front of us. Jumping to outrage mode, which then becomes a hardened position we dig ourselves into, does not help us seek the truth.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  Not so much. Even by their own article (with its own biases - show me an article on this site that has ever postulated that there might be merit to restrictions): > Completing each “cause of death worksheet” involves listing the “immediate cause” of death, the “underlying cause(s)” that initiated the events culminating with the immediate cause of death, and “(o)ther significant conditions contributing to death but not resulting in the underlying cause.” These fields are completed based on the “best medical opinion” of the certifier. Is not "overstating deaths ... to support their intent to retain strict restrictions". It's stating - as it would with _any other disease_ that the patient had other co-morbidities, just as if you had diabetes, or CHF, etc. It's not the exaggerated, grand standing hyperbole of "Patient in car accident had COVID-19, so COVID-19 was listed as the cause of death", which simply hasn't happened. "Contributing to death, but not the underlying cause, in the best medical opinion of the physician/ME". In contrast, Florida has numerous documented instances of government interference with this (restricting coroners from reporting _any_ data, pressuring law firms related to the media filing FOI requests).
  - throwawaysea 6y ago
    Read further down. The article I linked mentions that Washington state said in a prior request that they only count confirmed COVID cases in mortality metrics: > In its May 8 response to the Freedom Foundation, DOH stated, “All of the deaths currently attributed to COVID-19 had a positive PCR (polymerise chain reaction) test at some point. A PCR test is required in order to classify something as a confirmed case.” However various other sources now seemingly contradict the answer previously given, since they do count “presumptive” cases in mortality metrics after all: > DOH’s “Preliminary Guidance for Reporting COVID-19 Deaths” provides: “Coronavirus Disease 2019 or COVID-19 should be reported on the death certificate for all decedents where the disease caused, or is assumed to have caused, or contributed to death.” (emphasis in original) > Another DOH COVID-19 fact sheet makes a distinction between “confirmed” cases of COVID-19 in which the patient tested positive and “probable” cases involving any of the following factors [...] So either the initial response was false or the definitions of the metrics changed at some point. The reason this matters is because WA’s governor, Jay Inslee, has instituted the nation’s most strict restrictions, going well beyond what other cautious states like CA have implemented. For example he has banned fishing, hunting, residential construction, prevented rural areas from advancing in reopening phases, etc. Even as some restrictions (like closing all state parks or banning fishing) were reversed, Inslee continues to retain strange nonsensical bans on activities like camping. Certainly there is motive to make the numbers look worse to justify policy overreach or missteps, and it deserves scrutiny.
boublepop 6y ago
I have a fleeting suspicion that her story won’t check out. It sounds a lot like they brought on more people to back her because of data and operational errors and she fought back against them to the point where they had to move her away from her position which she took to the media leaving them to let her go. I’m not saying that is definitely the case but I’m eagerly awaiting their response.
- robotron 6y ago
  That's quite a bit of made-up stuff there.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  What are you basing this on? Certainly not the Florida state government's official position and activities thus far. Withholding information on nursing home cases, interfering with media law firms, refusing coroners to release any information so far. But now, apparently, "she's doing it wrong; we just want to make sure accurate and complete numbers get out to the public". Fleeting suspicion, indeed.
  - boublepop 6y ago
    Yes indeed, what I said was a fleeting suspicions was a fleeting suspicion. Are we really at the point in online discourse where being literal is so foreign to people that it needs to be attacked? I’m basing my suspension on the reported article, I’m not making any accusations. Though as has been reported, there have been issues where poor reporting of numbers (like reporting deaths by date reported instead of date of death), led to significantly distorted interpretations, which good data scientists would tell you that you need to avoid. This is similar to someone making a “technically true” graph with an offset origin to make it look like there is a huge relative difference between two columns. In that case how you make your visuals matter. And if someone tells you that you need to “manually change the origin to zero” and you won’t do it because your report suits your narrative, then that’s an issue. If it’s actually the case that she wanted to keep showing deaths by date reported instead of date of death because a spike appearing in the less acccurate report made it look like deaths spiked after opening up, then that’s a valid issue. But again, this is all just speculation backing a suspicion and it will be interesting to see their response. Her report is extremely light on details and can’t really be described as whistleblowing as much as just someone venting personal frustrations online and making currenlty unbased accusations. That may change if she provides further details to back her claims of cause.
DonnyV 6y ago
Its amazing the first thing people assume here is that she's lying. Why would she lie? What does she gain?
- iron0013 6y ago
  She’s being accused of lying by folks who don’t like what she has to say, simple as that. Contrast this to HN’s response to the tech CEO who was outed as a kkk member who had committed violent hate crimes: most people here bent over backwards to interpret his story in the most sympathetic possible way.
  - stronglikedan 6y ago
    > most people here I highly doubt that.
    - iron0013 6y ago
      Here’s the thread, go ahead and tally the number of comments that are sympathetic vs unsympathetic to the hate-crime CEO, and compare that to the proportion of comments in this thread that are sympathetic/unsympathetic to the Florida whistleblower: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23007512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23007512 Kinda funny how HN commenters decide that certain people’s perspectives need to be “steelmanned” but not others’
      - true_religion 6y ago
        Oh I remember now. The CEO was an abused kid, who joined the KKK and stayed in it till he was about 19; then gradually left. Then 32 years passed. I am willing to believe 3 decades is enough to change a man. HNs response was also tempered by the fact that many posters are young, so when this man committed his crimes they were not even born. Throw in the fact that he is Jewish and still joined the KKK, and you can see why some decided he was a deluded or tricked child who escaped the KKK clutches rather than someone who would continue to harbor self-hate for 3 decades, acting as a sleeper agent. This case now, is about the present day. The researcher can’t claim that any faults are merely past transgressions she has moved beyond. Nor can anyone say they don’t understand the time period this is occurring in (as the time period is now). Edit: In the above I reference the KKK, but the CEO was actually a neo Nazi. Same hate. Different clothing.
jackfoxy 6y ago
Can someone summarize exactly what manipulation she refused?
- Mikeb85 6y ago
  No because she never actually provided those details. It states this in the article.
  - cpncrunch 6y ago
    See the tampabay art linked elsewhere. She didnt want the unconfirmed cases removed. Clickbait article. Flagged.
toiletfuneral 6y ago
Like other data driven & objective commenters of HN, I will determine the truthfulness of this story based on her personal politics and how much they align with my own.
vmchale 6y ago
This is banana republic shit.
JadeNB 6y ago
Not that I have any doubt about political manipulation going on, but removing "she said" from the end of the headline seems to change its meaning.
every 6y ago
There's science and there's politics. Guess which one usually prevails in the short-term...
- ImaCake 6y ago
  There is only so much you can do to cover up a pandemic and an economic depression. People won't need numbers to understand either event when their grandfather dies and they can't get a job to feed their children.
pera 6y ago
There is something really wrong with how Florida is handling COVID-19 data, just a few weeks ago: Florida medical examiners were releasing coronavirus death data. The state made them stop. https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/04/29/florida-medical-examiners-were-releasing-coronavirus-death-data-the-state-made-them-stop/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/04/29/florida-medi...
- KarlKemp 6y ago
  They were (are?) also not counting deaths by visitors from out-of-state. Even the likes of Belarus, Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, or Brazil seem to have realised either that it's better for them to be transparent, or that fudging the numbers is always going to come out in the end. I'm somewhat certain such shenanigans are magnitudes worse for a state's image. New York is seen as unlucky, or maybe incompetent. Florida is corrupt. A failed state.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    Florida has a lot of out of staters, too; a million elderly folks come for the winter and typically wouldn’t be counted as residents. They’re also the demographic that dies at very elevated rates.
    - desigooner 6y ago
      Deaths are not reported based on residency - Deaths are reported based on the actual location of death. If the death occurs in Florida, it counts as a Florida Death as per CDC / NCHS.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/06/under-pressure-florida-released-a-controversial-list-of-coronavirus-deaths-but-key-information-is-blacked-out/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/06/under-pressu... > What’s more, the health department has said it is only including Florida residents in its count, although after the Times’ report it began posting some data on non-resident deaths in feeds online. > “By their own admission, they are not counting every Florida death,” Nelson said. “I’m surprised that they are ahead.”
egberts1 6y ago
Oy, she wasn’t fired. She was removed from her position much like a high school principal removed toward middle-school math teacher. But she wasn’t let go, much less fired.
- HumblyTossed 6y ago
  > The scientist who created Florida's COVID-19 data portal wasn't just removed from her position on May 5, she was fired on Monday by the Department of Health, she said, for refusing to manipulate data. That's not the way I read it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ric2b 6y ago
  Well, she has now: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23236613 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23236613
ponker 6y ago
Any idea why the elderly voter bloc in Florida hasn’t been able to successfully lobby for total and long term shutdown? I thought their voting power was very high.
natrik 6y ago
From a reddit comment: >An epidemiologist, Dr. Carina Blackmore, was the one who contacted the IT director to make the change. Then the IT director contacted Rebekah Jones to actually implement the change and she threw a fit. There is nothing to suggest Dr. Blackmore is political or wanted to support reopening. >https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-reassigning-her-emails-show/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-heal... >What Dr. Blackmore asked to be removed was a count of unconfirmed cases based on self-reported symptoms. They only wanted confirmed cases represented.
- Mikeb85 6y ago
  Well that's pretty damning. Seems like the firing was more than warranted.
  - oneweekwonder 6y ago
    > Well that's pretty damning. What did see do wrong, except wanting to keep the "truth" on the dashboard? Please don't quote ops quotes for me, could also not find the comments or quotes in the article or /r/...
    - Mikeb85 6y ago
      Wanting to portray possible cases as confirmed cases... From the article posted above: > she objected to the removal of records showing people had symptoms or positive tests before the cases were announced
      - madiator 6y ago
        I don't see your quote in this article. Is there a different article you are referring to?
        Mikeb85 6y ago
        It's in the first paragraph of this article: https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-reassigning-her-emails-show/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-heal...
duxup 6y ago
Has she said exactly what she was told to change? That would be more helpful to really understand it. All we have is her characterization of what happened.
jariel 6y ago
"One day before a top Florida Department of Health data manager lost her role maintaining the state’s COVID-19 data, she objected to the removal of records showing people had symptoms or positive tests before the cases were announced, according to internal emails obtained by the Tampa Bay Times." [1] This does not support the whistleblower narrative, this seems like a front end/front line communications person disagreeing with a decision that is legitimately made by her seniors. It's hard to tell exactly, but it seems reasonable to me that the board might not want to include such information, as it may be spotty, not consistently collected or reported, and frankly it may have no value to the public good. The Canadian government, the Ontario/Quebec government, the CBC - nowhere do I see that level of reporting and nobody here is complaining about censorship and whistleblowing. I think HN has jumped the gun her to assume the validity of this ostensible whistle-blowing action, and I suggest there's some nuance here and no obvious signs of malicious practice. "As a word of caution, I would not expect the new team to continue the same level of accessibility and transparency that I made central to the process during the first two months. After all, my commitment to both is largely (arguably entirely) the reason I am no longer managing it,” [2] - this is kind of an arrogant assumption. What she should have done instead was made specific reference to the information, why it is important, highlighted the problems in the process and how we can be assured that it's addressed. And there's this from the same article: “exhibited a repeated course of insubordination during her time with the Department, including her unilateral decisions to modify the Department’s COVID-19 dashboard without input or approval from the epidemiological team or her supervisors.” So it would seem the state is claiming there's some unprofessional behaviour her on her part, and the point about not consulting with the epidemiological team is particularly difficult. [1] https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-reassigning-her-emails-show/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-heal... [2] https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-reassigning-her-emails-show/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-heal...
tracer4201 6y ago
The CDC hasn’t had a single briefing since March. The President came out and stated he’s taking a drug that his own officials say at best, doesn’t do much, and at worst, can kill you, tells you everything you need to know. The whole situation has gotten political. Trump called himself a wartime president but now apparently it’s all a hoax from the democrats.
goldforever 6y ago
Lets hear the other side of this story.
scarmig 6y ago
It's interesting that the crowd who were so outraged at the CPC carefully massaging data are all of a sudden deeply sympathetic to the subtleties of data reporting and presentation and the need to be very conservative when estimating deaths.
NicoJuicy 6y ago
Some here mention that possible cases are different than confirmed cases and she made an error. If you know the Belgian story and the "big" amount of cases. Then you should know the country lists "suspected cases" as cases in every metric. So while the number for Belgium looks a lot higher, since a lot of "other causes than COVID" are listed as cases in contrary to other countries. We are one of the few that overestimate their cases, but we also don't need to verify the suspected cases as confirmed cases ( + put effort in that). Probably every other country "undercounts" their cases. This also led to the faulty conclusion of 'president T.' that Belgium is doing bad, informed observers would have known that is not correct to say :) One of many references: https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/106454/coronavirus-why-belgium-also-counts-suspected-deaths/ https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/1064...

736 points by tmountain 6y ago

> Rebekah Jones said in an email to FLORIDA TODAY that she single-handedly created two applications in two languages, four dashboards, six unique maps with layers of data functionality for 32 variables covering a half a million lines of data. Her objective was to create a way for Floridians and researchers to see what the COVID-19 situation was in real time. She will not have a hard time finding further employment.

Mikeb85 6y ago
Assuming she told the truth. Governments typically love bureaucracy and massive projects, seems odd they'd fund any sort of website or app created by a solo dev...
- enraged_camel 6y ago
  Wow, it's incredible how many people are implying/assuming that she's some sort of nasty liar.
  - Mikeb85 6y ago
    And it's incredible how many people are believing her despite the fact she literally provided no evidence of any kind to back up her allegations. Not an email, a text, a screenshot, example of where code or data was changed, absolutely nothing except an email to a local newspaper with next to no details.
    - cpncrunch 6y ago
      The tampabay news story linked elsewhere has the info. She didnt want to remove unconfirmed cases. Not looking good for her.
  - HumblyTossed 6y ago
    Yeah, after De Santis got lawyers involved to keep a paper from seeking information about the coronavirus at elder care facilities, I'd be more inclined to not believe my (I'm a Floridian) state Government. De Santis is a mini Trump.

henriquez 6y ago

> she was fired because she was ordered to censor some data, but refused to "manually change data to drum up support for the plan to reopen." > > She provided no further details. We’re gonna need some more meat on this bone. The facts presented do not support the headline.

coding123 6y ago
While I don't disagree that we need more information, basically the only person that is qualified to suggest what was asked to be changed is the person fired, so if you don't take her word for it, then the state of Florida officials that want to bury this, are going to win.
- xamuel 6y ago
  >basically the only person that is qualified to suggest what was asked to be changed is the person fired What? By this logic, it would be virtually impossible to fire anyone who was willing to lie about what was said behind closed doors. Not saying the person in the article is lying, but I hope we haven't devolved to a state where individuals can make claims about wrongful termination and just automatically be assumed to be telling the truth. We have courts of law and discovery processes and things like that.
  - nickff 6y ago
    I agree that considered judgement is desirable, but it seems that the recent surge in so-called 'cancel culture' has put an end to thoughfulness and patience.
  - loa_in_ 6y ago
    You hopefully do realize that obviously in case of wrongful termination the state has incentive to cover it up. And... She's the only person fighting on her side and no lawyer has incentive to take a potentially losing battle against order of magnitude bigger opponent.
    - 6y ago

kuyan 6y ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23231237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23231237

brlewis 6y ago
Previously, responsibility for the dashboard was taken away. The firing is new.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  Huh? I don't think so... the previous article points to this article.
danso 6y ago
FWIW, I submitted that thread which is sourced to CBS12, because I had thought (mistakenly [0]) that it would be more accessible to EU users. However, the CBS12 story is essentially a summation of the floridatoday.com story, with some additional followup comment from the fired scientist. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23231757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23231757

FriendlyNormie 6y ago

The data is faulty, we can only start collecting data again after hospitals are no longer paid 39k USD as a reward for killing you and putting COVID-19 on the death certificate. You’re all complete morons. You need to be forcibly disempowered from having any say in any political process, you’re all too stupid to make decisions that matter.

psychometry 6y ago

We need more info here, but I think everyone pretty much saw this coming in red states.

xamuel 6y ago

makomk posted an interesting comment on another thread here 12 hours ago, which I'll paste below. (from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23233097 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23233097) I think I've got a good guess what data she didn't want removed or changed, and it's not exactly good for her case. On May the 5th, they day she was removed from her position, there was an all-time high spike of 113 reported coronavirus deaths due to Florida reporting a bunch of old deaths all at once: https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/15/florida-adds-43-coronavirus-deaths-as-state-continues-to-reopen/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/15/florida-adds... This did not represent an actual spike in deaths which had in reality been declining, but if I remember rightly some people did spin it as deaths increasing due to the lockdown being lifted. Deaths by date reported are conspicuously missing from the current version of the dashboard; it only has dates by date of death, which is far less favourable to the claim that lifting the lockdown is causing an increase in deaths.

drewcon 6y ago
Massachusetts (where I live) just retroactively restated their case and death data by test/death date vs. reporting date so it more closely aligns to when a person was experiencing sickness or death. I find it far more useful now. The curve is now smoother, and you can see just how lumpy reporting timing was making daily releases of numbers. It has the knock on effect of making the numbers for the last seven or so days liable to change every day, but it’s still a better picture of what’s going on. This should be the norm.
- sanderjd 6y ago
  Colorado includes all of this information. It is useful to see it in different ways. But I have definitely found the deaths-by-date-of-death to be the most useful (it is also the most encouraging).
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    > I have definitely found the deaths-by-date-of-death to be the most useful Tracking deaths is actually the worst, most lagging indicator. It takes a very long time to die. The most useful was the CDC tracking cases-by-illness-onset, that gave you a great understanding of what the trend line really looked like over the last couple of days.

pacala 6y ago

Full title: Florida scientist was fired for 'refusing to manipulate' COVID-19 data, she said

mellosouls 6y ago
Don't know why you have been down-voted, the title has been significantly editorialised! Maybe she was fired for the reasons she claimed, but lets have some diligence at least in our representation and reading of the article, and respect the rules of this site.

downerending 6y ago

This article has a bit more detail, particularly on her email to users. It reads a bit like "I am virtuous, my bosses are scoundrels, and you should expect my successors to be liars". It's possible that there really is fire here, but that's a textbook example of how not to blow the whistle and be seen as credible. https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-reassigning-her-emails-show/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-heal...

gottareply2020 6y ago
"that's a textbook example of how not to blow the whistle and be seen as credible." Considering that the last 2 years is full of whistle blowers that acted credibly and saw nothing happen, I doubt she cared about the larger optics. The data manger was probably more concerned with an immediate, clear response to users of the data.
- neltnerb 6y ago
  And obviously being paid as per her first quoted remark. It's different to be a whistle blower when you aren't sitting on a big savings account, other people's problems stop being a high priority.
vaidhy 6y ago
>It's possible that there really is fire here, but that's a textbook example of how not to blow the whistle and be seen as credible. For some reason, this statement strikes me as being cruel to someone who is willing to take a stand on moral principles. For someone to buck the orders, it takes a lot of courage and be able to stand up under pressure. There are no textbook examples of how to whistleblow and I think we owe these people who are willing to call out problems as they see it a more charitable hearing.
- gowld 6y ago
  Problem is "someone who is willing to take a stand on moral principles" looks the same as "someone who was caught with their hand in the cookie jar and claims to be a victim".

socrates1998 6y ago

Another example of the people who control the data often can control the narrative that they want. The irony that data is supposed to have more truth to it than narratives is not lost on me. Regardless of the details of this example, it's scary how in the dark the public is for something that is insanely important to live and death.

xamuel 6y ago
Amen. And the weirdest part is it seems like whenever people manipulate the data, it's always to support whatever narrative I oppose. Any time the data supports the narrative I favor, said data is reliable and trustworthy. Has anyone else noticed this? Isn't it weird?
- rhacker 6y ago
  Even if we have all this math at our disposal, there's always a way to include all data points you have private access to show the outcome you want. It would be useful if we had some kind of open record act, as long as it doesn't reveal PII - if a government agency shows us a graph, we should have the means to duplicate it by getting access to the raw data (clipped of PII - i.e. Date of Birth turns into age range buckets) Probably a no-go, but I'm just saying data can be manipulated if you don't have unfettered access to it. I'm not saying this to support this specific case - just pondering a possible answer to your question.
brlewis 6y ago
I'm drawing the opposite conclusion. That it's hard to conspire to keep the public in the dark about data, due to the large number of people involved in gathering, processing, and presenting it.

throwawaysea 6y ago

This person is alleging that Florida is looking to understate deaths, presumably to support their reopening plans. There are also stories of states overstating deaths as well (see https://www.freedomfoundation.com/washington/washington-state-over-reporting-covid-19-deaths/ https://www.freedomfoundation.com/washington/washington-stat...), presumably to support their intent to retain strict restrictions. I am guessing generally, there is less malice involved than people ascribe to these situations. We don't have all the facts or perspectives, so let's take things slowly, wait for more information to come out, and analyze the facts with the full picture in front of us. Jumping to outrage mode, which then becomes a hardened position we dig ourselves into, does not help us seek the truth.

FireBeyond 6y ago
Not so much. Even by their own article (with its own biases - show me an article on this site that has ever postulated that there might be merit to restrictions): > Completing each “cause of death worksheet” involves listing the “immediate cause” of death, the “underlying cause(s)” that initiated the events culminating with the immediate cause of death, and “(o)ther significant conditions contributing to death but not resulting in the underlying cause.” These fields are completed based on the “best medical opinion” of the certifier. Is not "overstating deaths ... to support their intent to retain strict restrictions". It's stating - as it would with _any other disease_ that the patient had other co-morbidities, just as if you had diabetes, or CHF, etc. It's not the exaggerated, grand standing hyperbole of "Patient in car accident had COVID-19, so COVID-19 was listed as the cause of death", which simply hasn't happened. "Contributing to death, but not the underlying cause, in the best medical opinion of the physician/ME". In contrast, Florida has numerous documented instances of government interference with this (restricting coroners from reporting _any_ data, pressuring law firms related to the media filing FOI requests).
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  Read further down. The article I linked mentions that Washington state said in a prior request that they only count confirmed COVID cases in mortality metrics: > In its May 8 response to the Freedom Foundation, DOH stated, “All of the deaths currently attributed to COVID-19 had a positive PCR (polymerise chain reaction) test at some point. A PCR test is required in order to classify something as a confirmed case.” However various other sources now seemingly contradict the answer previously given, since they do count “presumptive” cases in mortality metrics after all: > DOH’s “Preliminary Guidance for Reporting COVID-19 Deaths” provides: “Coronavirus Disease 2019 or COVID-19 should be reported on the death certificate for all decedents where the disease caused, or is assumed to have caused, or contributed to death.” (emphasis in original) > Another DOH COVID-19 fact sheet makes a distinction between “confirmed” cases of COVID-19 in which the patient tested positive and “probable” cases involving any of the following factors [...] So either the initial response was false or the definitions of the metrics changed at some point. The reason this matters is because WA’s governor, Jay Inslee, has instituted the nation’s most strict restrictions, going well beyond what other cautious states like CA have implemented. For example he has banned fishing, hunting, residential construction, prevented rural areas from advancing in reopening phases, etc. Even as some restrictions (like closing all state parks or banning fishing) were reversed, Inslee continues to retain strange nonsensical bans on activities like camping. Certainly there is motive to make the numbers look worse to justify policy overreach or missteps, and it deserves scrutiny.

boublepop 6y ago

I have a fleeting suspicion that her story won’t check out. It sounds a lot like they brought on more people to back her because of data and operational errors and she fought back against them to the point where they had to move her away from her position which she took to the media leaving them to let her go. I’m not saying that is definitely the case but I’m eagerly awaiting their response.

robotron 6y ago
That's quite a bit of made-up stuff there.
FireBeyond 6y ago
What are you basing this on? Certainly not the Florida state government's official position and activities thus far. Withholding information on nursing home cases, interfering with media law firms, refusing coroners to release any information so far. But now, apparently, "she's doing it wrong; we just want to make sure accurate and complete numbers get out to the public". Fleeting suspicion, indeed.
- boublepop 6y ago
  Yes indeed, what I said was a fleeting suspicions was a fleeting suspicion. Are we really at the point in online discourse where being literal is so foreign to people that it needs to be attacked? I’m basing my suspension on the reported article, I’m not making any accusations. Though as has been reported, there have been issues where poor reporting of numbers (like reporting deaths by date reported instead of date of death), led to significantly distorted interpretations, which good data scientists would tell you that you need to avoid. This is similar to someone making a “technically true” graph with an offset origin to make it look like there is a huge relative difference between two columns. In that case how you make your visuals matter. And if someone tells you that you need to “manually change the origin to zero” and you won’t do it because your report suits your narrative, then that’s an issue. If it’s actually the case that she wanted to keep showing deaths by date reported instead of date of death because a spike appearing in the less acccurate report made it look like deaths spiked after opening up, then that’s a valid issue. But again, this is all just speculation backing a suspicion and it will be interesting to see their response. Her report is extremely light on details and can’t really be described as whistleblowing as much as just someone venting personal frustrations online and making currenlty unbased accusations. That may change if she provides further details to back her claims of cause.

DonnyV 6y ago

Its amazing the first thing people assume here is that she's lying. Why would she lie? What does she gain?

iron0013 6y ago
She’s being accused of lying by folks who don’t like what she has to say, simple as that. Contrast this to HN’s response to the tech CEO who was outed as a kkk member who had committed violent hate crimes: most people here bent over backwards to interpret his story in the most sympathetic possible way.
- stronglikedan 6y ago
  > most people here I highly doubt that.
  - iron0013 6y ago
    Here’s the thread, go ahead and tally the number of comments that are sympathetic vs unsympathetic to the hate-crime CEO, and compare that to the proportion of comments in this thread that are sympathetic/unsympathetic to the Florida whistleblower: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23007512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23007512 Kinda funny how HN commenters decide that certain people’s perspectives need to be “steelmanned” but not others’
    - true_religion 6y ago
      Oh I remember now. The CEO was an abused kid, who joined the KKK and stayed in it till he was about 19; then gradually left. Then 32 years passed. I am willing to believe 3 decades is enough to change a man. HNs response was also tempered by the fact that many posters are young, so when this man committed his crimes they were not even born. Throw in the fact that he is Jewish and still joined the KKK, and you can see why some decided he was a deluded or tricked child who escaped the KKK clutches rather than someone who would continue to harbor self-hate for 3 decades, acting as a sleeper agent. This case now, is about the present day. The researcher can’t claim that any faults are merely past transgressions she has moved beyond. Nor can anyone say they don’t understand the time period this is occurring in (as the time period is now). Edit: In the above I reference the KKK, but the CEO was actually a neo Nazi. Same hate. Different clothing.

jackfoxy 6y ago

Can someone summarize exactly what manipulation she refused?

Mikeb85 6y ago
No because she never actually provided those details. It states this in the article.
- cpncrunch 6y ago
  See the tampabay art linked elsewhere. She didnt want the unconfirmed cases removed. Clickbait article. Flagged.

toiletfuneral 6y ago

Like other data driven & objective commenters of HN, I will determine the truthfulness of this story based on her personal politics and how much they align with my own.

vmchale 6y ago

This is banana republic shit.

JadeNB 6y ago

Not that I have any doubt about political manipulation going on, but removing "she said" from the end of the headline seems to change its meaning.

every 6y ago

There's science and there's politics. Guess which one usually prevails in the short-term...

ImaCake 6y ago
There is only so much you can do to cover up a pandemic and an economic depression. People won't need numbers to understand either event when their grandfather dies and they can't get a job to feed their children.

pera 6y ago

There is something really wrong with how Florida is handling COVID-19 data, just a few weeks ago: Florida medical examiners were releasing coronavirus death data. The state made them stop. https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/04/29/florida-medical-examiners-were-releasing-coronavirus-death-data-the-state-made-them-stop/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/04/29/florida-medi...

KarlKemp 6y ago
They were (are?) also not counting deaths by visitors from out-of-state. Even the likes of Belarus, Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, or Brazil seem to have realised either that it's better for them to be transparent, or that fudging the numbers is always going to come out in the end. I'm somewhat certain such shenanigans are magnitudes worse for a state's image. New York is seen as unlucky, or maybe incompetent. Florida is corrupt. A failed state.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Florida has a lot of out of staters, too; a million elderly folks come for the winter and typically wouldn’t be counted as residents. They’re also the demographic that dies at very elevated rates.
  - desigooner 6y ago
    Deaths are not reported based on residency - Deaths are reported based on the actual location of death. If the death occurs in Florida, it counts as a Florida Death as per CDC / NCHS.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/06/under-pressure-florida-released-a-controversial-list-of-coronavirus-deaths-but-key-information-is-blacked-out/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/06/under-pressu... > What’s more, the health department has said it is only including Florida residents in its count, although after the Times’ report it began posting some data on non-resident deaths in feeds online. > “By their own admission, they are not counting every Florida death,” Nelson said. “I’m surprised that they are ahead.”

egberts1 6y ago

Oy, she wasn’t fired. She was removed from her position much like a high school principal removed toward middle-school math teacher. But she wasn’t let go, much less fired.

HumblyTossed 6y ago
> The scientist who created Florida's COVID-19 data portal wasn't just removed from her position on May 5, she was fired on Monday by the Department of Health, she said, for refusing to manipulate data. That's not the way I read it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ric2b 6y ago
Well, she has now: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23236613 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23236613

ponker 6y ago

Any idea why the elderly voter bloc in Florida hasn’t been able to successfully lobby for total and long term shutdown? I thought their voting power was very high.

natrik 6y ago

From a reddit comment: >An epidemiologist, Dr. Carina Blackmore, was the one who contacted the IT director to make the change. Then the IT director contacted Rebekah Jones to actually implement the change and she threw a fit. There is nothing to suggest Dr. Blackmore is political or wanted to support reopening. >https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-reassigning-her-emails-show/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-heal... >What Dr. Blackmore asked to be removed was a count of unconfirmed cases based on self-reported symptoms. They only wanted confirmed cases represented.

Mikeb85 6y ago
Well that's pretty damning. Seems like the firing was more than warranted.
- oneweekwonder 6y ago
  > Well that's pretty damning. What did see do wrong, except wanting to keep the "truth" on the dashboard? Please don't quote ops quotes for me, could also not find the comments or quotes in the article or /r/...
  - Mikeb85 6y ago
    Wanting to portray possible cases as confirmed cases... From the article posted above: > she objected to the removal of records showing people had symptoms or positive tests before the cases were announced
    - madiator 6y ago
      I don't see your quote in this article. Is there a different article you are referring to?
      - Mikeb85 6y ago
        It's in the first paragraph of this article: https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-reassigning-her-emails-show/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-heal...

duxup 6y ago

Has she said exactly what she was told to change? That would be more helpful to really understand it. All we have is her characterization of what happened.

jariel 6y ago

"One day before a top Florida Department of Health data manager lost her role maintaining the state’s COVID-19 data, she objected to the removal of records showing people had symptoms or positive tests before the cases were announced, according to internal emails obtained by the Tampa Bay Times." [1] This does not support the whistleblower narrative, this seems like a front end/front line communications person disagreeing with a decision that is legitimately made by her seniors. It's hard to tell exactly, but it seems reasonable to me that the board might not want to include such information, as it may be spotty, not consistently collected or reported, and frankly it may have no value to the public good. The Canadian government, the Ontario/Quebec government, the CBC - nowhere do I see that level of reporting and nobody here is complaining about censorship and whistleblowing. I think HN has jumped the gun her to assume the validity of this ostensible whistle-blowing action, and I suggest there's some nuance here and no obvious signs of malicious practice. "As a word of caution, I would not expect the new team to continue the same level of accessibility and transparency that I made central to the process during the first two months. After all, my commitment to both is largely (arguably entirely) the reason I am no longer managing it,” [2] - this is kind of an arrogant assumption. What she should have done instead was made specific reference to the information, why it is important, highlighted the problems in the process and how we can be assured that it's addressed. And there's this from the same article: “exhibited a repeated course of insubordination during her time with the Department, including her unilateral decisions to modify the Department’s COVID-19 dashboard without input or approval from the epidemiological team or her supervisors.” So it would seem the state is claiming there's some unprofessional behaviour her on her part, and the point about not consulting with the epidemiological team is particularly difficult. [1] https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-reassigning-her-emails-show/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-heal... [2] https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-reassigning-her-emails-show/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-heal...

tracer4201 6y ago

The CDC hasn’t had a single briefing since March. The President came out and stated he’s taking a drug that his own officials say at best, doesn’t do much, and at worst, can kill you, tells you everything you need to know. The whole situation has gotten political. Trump called himself a wartime president but now apparently it’s all a hoax from the democrats.

goldforever 6y ago

Lets hear the other side of this story.

scarmig 6y ago

It's interesting that the crowd who were so outraged at the CPC carefully massaging data are all of a sudden deeply sympathetic to the subtleties of data reporting and presentation and the need to be very conservative when estimating deaths.

NicoJuicy 6y ago

Some here mention that possible cases are different than confirmed cases and she made an error. If you know the Belgian story and the "big" amount of cases. Then you should know the country lists "suspected cases" as cases in every metric. So while the number for Belgium looks a lot higher, since a lot of "other causes than COVID" are listed as cases in contrary to other countries. We are one of the few that overestimate their cases, but we also don't need to verify the suspected cases as confirmed cases ( + put effort in that). Probably every other country "undercounts" their cases. This also led to the faulty conclusion of 'president T.' that Belgium is doing bad, informed observers would have known that is not correct to say :) One of many references: https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/106454/coronavirus-why-belgium-also-counts-suspected-deaths/ https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/1064...