10 ms·

Yep, I noticed the site loads much faster in Brave Browser which blocks all ads and trackers.

Someone1234 6y ago
Brave: A browser that blocks ads/tracking so it can integrate its own as a business model. Why do people use it? I can understand blocking ads with e.g. ublock, but I cannot understand wanting a browser that shows you desktop ads for internet points.
- MiroF 6y ago
  > Why do people use it? I can understand blocking ads with e.g. ublock, but I cannot understand wanting a browser that shows you desktop ads for internet points. Does it actually do this? When I had Brave, I never noticed that.
  - snazz 6y ago
    It’s optional. I am strongly against Brave (the privacy wording, taking cryptocurrency to be “donated” to content creators who hadn’t heard of Brave and then keeping it in “escrow” indefinitely, etc). However, if you are aware of the risks and the company’s not-stellar reputation among security people, you can use it if you want.
    - billme 6y ago
      Wow!!! - Brave is holding payments in escrow for parties that did not even sign up for the service, that’s not shady at all. Even makes me wonder what’s happening to all the funds in escrow.
      - DennisP 6y ago
        If they're doing it right, it's locked in a smart contract, in a bunch of individual balances that get unlocked when an admin at Brave provides a withdrawal address. That way, while they could steal from those accounts, it'd be readily apparent to any intended recipient whose funds were stolen.
        billme 6y ago
        Let me be more clear, using an example. Appears Brave only attempts to contact the Whois email after the funds in escrow exceed $100 USD. Let’s say the have million in escrow, they invest it, don’t lose any of the funds, and 5 years later end up paying out all funds due. Does the “all funds due” just the million, is it the million plus the returns they made on million, is it adjusted for inflation because they sat on it 5-years, etc.? Comparable example might be the funds held in escrow by gift cards; my guess is unless Brave is being super careful what they are doing is or will be defined as illegal.
        xur17 6y ago
        It's worth noting that the funds they are holding are funds they are giving out to users to donate to websites (as part of their boostrap fund), so it's not really as horrible as you are saying (but still.. weird).
        billme 6y ago
        It is horrible & toxic — no party regardless of intent should be collecting funds on behave of another party unless that party has legally agreed for it — or they’re legally using a well known structure for doing so that’s audited; for example, in the country Brave is headquartered, a non-profit business.
        ketamine__ 6y ago
        https://twitter.com/tomscott/status/1085238644926005248 https://twitter.com/tomscott/status/1085238644926005248 > A final update on the thread about Brave: they're now opt-in for creators! While it's still possible to tip folks who haven't opted in, the data is stored in-browser and the UI has been clarified. These are good changes, and they fix the complaints I had!
        billme 6y ago
        Brave doesn’t make it easy to see the changes they made without installing the software and likely having to buy their crypto to test it; appears Brave is still selling the tokens for third-parties without their knowledge. System should be you send funds, transfer is not done until 3rd party authorization is received, 3rd party has no fee cash option instead (fees if any paid by donor) — and transaction voids after 30-days.
      - BrendanEich 6y ago
        No, you're mistaken. We don't hold payments at all (we are not licensed to intermediate). If you use the browser to tip a creator who hasn't signed up, your browser holds the tip and retries every 30 days up to 90th day.
        billme 6y ago
        (Please clearly state you how you’re related to Brave in your profile if you don’t want me to repeatedly ask you when posting comments.) Feel free to link to public documentation on Brave’s site showing the screenshots of Brave’s workflow, policies, etc. As is, you’re comment assumes I understand a lot of things, which you say I don’t, then go on to not explain them; tip, comments, tweets, etc are a poor place to do this. For example, what has happened before the 30th day; as in please list from start to finish everything that happens from me downloading Brave, finding myself, making a “payment” to myself, and nothing nothing. Also, if relevant, disclose any and all business policies & procedure; for example, is there a difference between a $5, $101, $1001, etc transaction.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        Brendan is the CEO of Brave and fairly famous for a number of things, so I can't say I understand how you (as someone who is apparently savvy enough to understand how Brave works) don't know who what his relation to it is?
        billme 6y ago
        Exactly how do you know that user is the CEO of Brave? (Serious question, I don’t have an answer.)
        snazz 6y ago
        He’s relatively famous and easy to google. That HN account is not a brand new account someone made to pretend to be him either.
  - BrendanEich 6y ago
    It's opt-in, we do not and will not turn it on by default. If you want to try it, click on the triangle in the URL bar on the right. Thanks.
- jessmay 6y ago
  It's almost as if you can opt into it if you want to. Amazing.
  - Someone1234 6y ago
    That's not an argument for using Brave. If you don't opt into it, why use Brave at all? You're essentially using a glorified Chrome with uBlock.
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      > If you don't opt into it, why use Brave at all? Sounds like you compiled a statement like "give me the factors of 26, but you can't use 1, 2, or 13." If you don't opt into it, you definitely aren't using it. As for why someone would opt into it: some people don't mind being tracked but they care about who's doing the tracking and how their data gets integrated. If Brave shuts down everyone else's tracking but then Brave is building a profile on a user, that's fine for some.
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        > Sounds like you compiled a statement like "give me the factors of 26, but you can't use 1, 2, or 13." If you don't opt into it, you definitely aren't using it. Parent comment said that the business model of Brave is opt in, implying that they’re recommending you use brave but not opt in to the crypto/ad business model. I think it’s perfectly fair to ask what is the value prop of Brave if you don’t use their crypto/ad system.
        catalogia 6y ago
        As far as I'm aware, Brave is the only browser that blocks ads by default. Personally I just use uBO/uMatrix on Firefox, but I can certainly understand why some people might prefer a more streamlined default experience. The fact that so many people get bent out of shape about Brave blocking ads by default is probably also seen as a positive signal by many people who hate ads. If Brave pisses off people who run ad-supported websites, that's a fantastic endorsement.
- billme 6y ago
  Never looked at Brave’s business model - and agree, it’s possibly more toxic than ADs. That being Brave wants you to buy their currency to pay creators then the creators pay them to get paid. On top of that, they created their own AD network and are paying out 70% of profits to the users, which sounds like huge conflict of interest. EDIT: Appears Brave is even holding payments in escrow for parties that did not even sign up to receive payments, that’s not shady at all. Even makes me wonder what’s happening to all the funds in escrow.
  - sieabahlpark 6y ago
    You could also just not spend any money and leave that feature disabled.
    - artificial 6y ago
      Never, then that will completely nullify the ability to be outraged on others behalf and complain about it! I wonder if these are the folks that mash every button on the elevator, because everything must be enabled?
      - billme 6y ago
        Exactly how do I know Brave has not collected funds for me, but hasn’t told me?
        artificial 6y ago
        How do I know if there is an answer to this question if I haven't searched?
    - vorpalhex 6y ago
      And you could use Facebook and disable every tracking feature and hope they're honest. When someone does shady things in one area.. they probably do them in others.
    - ViViDboarder 6y ago
- SmallPeePeeMan 6y ago
  It’s my default mobile browser. It does NOT replace ads with its own — this complete nonsense. It blocks ads unless you opt-in to see them and the whole Brave Points thing is stupid. I’ve never opted-in. It is well-known that Firefox and Chrome do their own tracking. no extension, ublock or otherwise, can change that.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    > It is well-known that Firefox and Chrome do their own tracking. no extension, ublock or otherwise, can change that. Huh? Firefox has telemetry but the ways to turn it off are well documented.
    - SmallPeePeeMan 6y ago
      Why would I do this: 1. Research the latest settings I need to change in about:config to ensure telemetry & tracking are disabled, and privacy settings are optimized (and hope I got them all). 2. Install ublock origin and possibly other privacy-related extensions (e.g. to block finger printing) 3. Do this on every device which I use... I don’t know about you but I have dozens of devices between myself and my family 4. every time i re-install Firefox or create a new Firefox profile, repeat step #1 and #2. 5. Read the release notes for every Firefox update to ensure there aren’t new or changed about:config settings I should change. When I can just use Brave instead? You seriously do all 5 of those steps religiously? Because if don’t, you’re a step or 3 behind Brave’s our-of-the-box defaults.
- BrendanEich 6y ago
  If you just block and free-ride, more power to you (this is within the rights of users, by law and by design of the web standards). However, many Brave users want to support creators by contributing regularly, and a lot of these users prefer to earn tokens they can give back rather than to self-fund their wallets. Browsers today, without strong tracking protection, are passive servants of ad-tech implemented via JavaScript. Average users don't know how to block. Most users don't subscribe widely at risk of overpaying (cross-subsidizing, the publishers call it). Brave's model not only cuts out ad-tech intermediaries, leaving only the browser in the middle — we then let users opt in (with blind signature cryptography so our servers can't link ids or transactions, and via an Ethereum ERC20 token, BAT) to support creators directly yet anonymously. We will add more over time to support creators, including things like patreon and superchats mediated in the browser (client side and user first), with privacy and pseudonymity as well as anonymity (the default).
  - tomrod 6y ago
    Seems like there is a lot of mistrust of browsers these days. Personally, I like Brave, except that some versions on Linux seem to bloat out / crash Fedora. I think I see your view as to the "why" of Brave -- how do you see building user trust at scale? Another concern that comes to mind: Chrome, Safari are backed by companies with massive warchests, and though Mozilla is not as far as I know as liquid as GOOG, AAPL, it has proven staying power. I'm not sure what the term is in the mobile app space when a popular app gets bought up and modified, but what guarantees do I have that the Brave app won't be bought out by unscrupulous dealers down the road?
  - thejynxed 6y ago
    Yes, because of this ad-tech, some days I wish you had taken your work on JavaScript and sent it entirely to /dev/null, no offense.
- KarlKemp 6y ago
  Brave, the self-annoited "brave" answer to that question everyone is asking: "why isn't there another middleman between me and the producers of content I like, skimming another 30% of their income off the top?"
  - mthoms 6y ago
    Actually, they are trying to do the exact opposite — which is to eliminate the middlemen and make paying creators more frictionless. Yes, if you opt-in to the system, they will take a cut, which is entirely reasonable if the model ends up being better for users and creators. Time will tell if that's the case, but it's an interesting experiment.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
justinmeiners 6y ago
this is an ad

Brave: A browser that blocks ads/tracking so it can integrate its own as a business model. Why do people use it? I can understand blocking ads with e.g. ublock, but I cannot understand wanting a browser that shows you desktop ads for internet points.

MiroF 6y ago
> Why do people use it? I can understand blocking ads with e.g. ublock, but I cannot understand wanting a browser that shows you desktop ads for internet points. Does it actually do this? When I had Brave, I never noticed that.
- snazz 6y ago
  It’s optional. I am strongly against Brave (the privacy wording, taking cryptocurrency to be “donated” to content creators who hadn’t heard of Brave and then keeping it in “escrow” indefinitely, etc). However, if you are aware of the risks and the company’s not-stellar reputation among security people, you can use it if you want.
  - billme 6y ago
    Wow!!! - Brave is holding payments in escrow for parties that did not even sign up for the service, that’s not shady at all. Even makes me wonder what’s happening to all the funds in escrow.
    - DennisP 6y ago
      If they're doing it right, it's locked in a smart contract, in a bunch of individual balances that get unlocked when an admin at Brave provides a withdrawal address. That way, while they could steal from those accounts, it'd be readily apparent to any intended recipient whose funds were stolen.
      - billme 6y ago
        Let me be more clear, using an example. Appears Brave only attempts to contact the Whois email after the funds in escrow exceed $100 USD. Let’s say the have million in escrow, they invest it, don’t lose any of the funds, and 5 years later end up paying out all funds due. Does the “all funds due” just the million, is it the million plus the returns they made on million, is it adjusted for inflation because they sat on it 5-years, etc.? Comparable example might be the funds held in escrow by gift cards; my guess is unless Brave is being super careful what they are doing is or will be defined as illegal.
        xur17 6y ago
        It's worth noting that the funds they are holding are funds they are giving out to users to donate to websites (as part of their boostrap fund), so it's not really as horrible as you are saying (but still.. weird).
        billme 6y ago
        It is horrible & toxic — no party regardless of intent should be collecting funds on behave of another party unless that party has legally agreed for it — or they’re legally using a well known structure for doing so that’s audited; for example, in the country Brave is headquartered, a non-profit business.
        ketamine__ 6y ago
        https://twitter.com/tomscott/status/1085238644926005248 https://twitter.com/tomscott/status/1085238644926005248 > A final update on the thread about Brave: they're now opt-in for creators! While it's still possible to tip folks who haven't opted in, the data is stored in-browser and the UI has been clarified. These are good changes, and they fix the complaints I had!
        billme 6y ago
        Brave doesn’t make it easy to see the changes they made without installing the software and likely having to buy their crypto to test it; appears Brave is still selling the tokens for third-parties without their knowledge. System should be you send funds, transfer is not done until 3rd party authorization is received, 3rd party has no fee cash option instead (fees if any paid by donor) — and transaction voids after 30-days.
    - BrendanEich 6y ago
      No, you're mistaken. We don't hold payments at all (we are not licensed to intermediate). If you use the browser to tip a creator who hasn't signed up, your browser holds the tip and retries every 30 days up to 90th day.
      - billme 6y ago
        (Please clearly state you how you’re related to Brave in your profile if you don’t want me to repeatedly ask you when posting comments.) Feel free to link to public documentation on Brave’s site showing the screenshots of Brave’s workflow, policies, etc. As is, you’re comment assumes I understand a lot of things, which you say I don’t, then go on to not explain them; tip, comments, tweets, etc are a poor place to do this. For example, what has happened before the 30th day; as in please list from start to finish everything that happens from me downloading Brave, finding myself, making a “payment” to myself, and nothing nothing. Also, if relevant, disclose any and all business policies & procedure; for example, is there a difference between a $5, $101, $1001, etc transaction.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        Brendan is the CEO of Brave and fairly famous for a number of things, so I can't say I understand how you (as someone who is apparently savvy enough to understand how Brave works) don't know who what his relation to it is?
        billme 6y ago
        Exactly how do you know that user is the CEO of Brave? (Serious question, I don’t have an answer.)
        snazz 6y ago
        He’s relatively famous and easy to google. That HN account is not a brand new account someone made to pretend to be him either.
- BrendanEich 6y ago
  It's opt-in, we do not and will not turn it on by default. If you want to try it, click on the triangle in the URL bar on the right. Thanks.
jessmay 6y ago
It's almost as if you can opt into it if you want to. Amazing.
- Someone1234 6y ago
  That's not an argument for using Brave. If you don't opt into it, why use Brave at all? You're essentially using a glorified Chrome with uBlock.
  - shadowgovt 6y ago
    > If you don't opt into it, why use Brave at all? Sounds like you compiled a statement like "give me the factors of 26, but you can't use 1, 2, or 13." If you don't opt into it, you definitely aren't using it. As for why someone would opt into it: some people don't mind being tracked but they care about who's doing the tracking and how their data gets integrated. If Brave shuts down everyone else's tracking but then Brave is building a profile on a user, that's fine for some.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      > Sounds like you compiled a statement like "give me the factors of 26, but you can't use 1, 2, or 13." If you don't opt into it, you definitely aren't using it. Parent comment said that the business model of Brave is opt in, implying that they’re recommending you use brave but not opt in to the crypto/ad business model. I think it’s perfectly fair to ask what is the value prop of Brave if you don’t use their crypto/ad system.
      - catalogia 6y ago
        As far as I'm aware, Brave is the only browser that blocks ads by default. Personally I just use uBO/uMatrix on Firefox, but I can certainly understand why some people might prefer a more streamlined default experience. The fact that so many people get bent out of shape about Brave blocking ads by default is probably also seen as a positive signal by many people who hate ads. If Brave pisses off people who run ad-supported websites, that's a fantastic endorsement.
billme 6y ago
Never looked at Brave’s business model - and agree, it’s possibly more toxic than ADs. That being Brave wants you to buy their currency to pay creators then the creators pay them to get paid. On top of that, they created their own AD network and are paying out 70% of profits to the users, which sounds like huge conflict of interest. EDIT: Appears Brave is even holding payments in escrow for parties that did not even sign up to receive payments, that’s not shady at all. Even makes me wonder what’s happening to all the funds in escrow.
- sieabahlpark 6y ago
  You could also just not spend any money and leave that feature disabled.
  - artificial 6y ago
    Never, then that will completely nullify the ability to be outraged on others behalf and complain about it! I wonder if these are the folks that mash every button on the elevator, because everything must be enabled?
    - billme 6y ago
      Exactly how do I know Brave has not collected funds for me, but hasn’t told me?
      - artificial 6y ago
        How do I know if there is an answer to this question if I haven't searched?
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    And you could use Facebook and disable every tracking feature and hope they're honest. When someone does shady things in one area.. they probably do them in others.
  - ViViDboarder 6y ago
SmallPeePeeMan 6y ago
It’s my default mobile browser. It does NOT replace ads with its own — this complete nonsense. It blocks ads unless you opt-in to see them and the whole Brave Points thing is stupid. I’ve never opted-in. It is well-known that Firefox and Chrome do their own tracking. no extension, ublock or otherwise, can change that.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > It is well-known that Firefox and Chrome do their own tracking. no extension, ublock or otherwise, can change that. Huh? Firefox has telemetry but the ways to turn it off are well documented.
  - SmallPeePeeMan 6y ago
    Why would I do this: 1. Research the latest settings I need to change in about:config to ensure telemetry & tracking are disabled, and privacy settings are optimized (and hope I got them all). 2. Install ublock origin and possibly other privacy-related extensions (e.g. to block finger printing) 3. Do this on every device which I use... I don’t know about you but I have dozens of devices between myself and my family 4. every time i re-install Firefox or create a new Firefox profile, repeat step #1 and #2. 5. Read the release notes for every Firefox update to ensure there aren’t new or changed about:config settings I should change. When I can just use Brave instead? You seriously do all 5 of those steps religiously? Because if don’t, you’re a step or 3 behind Brave’s our-of-the-box defaults.
BrendanEich 6y ago
If you just block and free-ride, more power to you (this is within the rights of users, by law and by design of the web standards). However, many Brave users want to support creators by contributing regularly, and a lot of these users prefer to earn tokens they can give back rather than to self-fund their wallets. Browsers today, without strong tracking protection, are passive servants of ad-tech implemented via JavaScript. Average users don't know how to block. Most users don't subscribe widely at risk of overpaying (cross-subsidizing, the publishers call it). Brave's model not only cuts out ad-tech intermediaries, leaving only the browser in the middle — we then let users opt in (with blind signature cryptography so our servers can't link ids or transactions, and via an Ethereum ERC20 token, BAT) to support creators directly yet anonymously. We will add more over time to support creators, including things like patreon and superchats mediated in the browser (client side and user first), with privacy and pseudonymity as well as anonymity (the default).
- tomrod 6y ago
  Seems like there is a lot of mistrust of browsers these days. Personally, I like Brave, except that some versions on Linux seem to bloat out / crash Fedora. I think I see your view as to the "why" of Brave -- how do you see building user trust at scale? Another concern that comes to mind: Chrome, Safari are backed by companies with massive warchests, and though Mozilla is not as far as I know as liquid as GOOG, AAPL, it has proven staying power. I'm not sure what the term is in the mobile app space when a popular app gets bought up and modified, but what guarantees do I have that the Brave app won't be bought out by unscrupulous dealers down the road?
- thejynxed 6y ago
  Yes, because of this ad-tech, some days I wish you had taken your work on JavaScript and sent it entirely to /dev/null, no offense.
KarlKemp 6y ago
Brave, the self-annoited "brave" answer to that question everyone is asking: "why isn't there another middleman between me and the producers of content I like, skimming another 30% of their income off the top?"
- mthoms 6y ago
  Actually, they are trying to do the exact opposite — which is to eliminate the middlemen and make paying creators more frictionless. Yes, if you opt-in to the system, they will take a cut, which is entirely reasonable if the model ends up being better for users and creators. Time will tell if that's the case, but it's an interesting experiment.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

justinmeiners 6y ago

this is an ad