17 ms·

TIL that Festool and SawStop are under one umbrella! For those that don't know, SawStop is one of the most impressive recent techical innovations in tablesaws.

by 2mol 6y ago

TIL that Festool and SawStop are under one umbrella! For those that don't know, SawStop is one of the most impressive recent techical innovations in tablesaws. It basically smashes a running blade down into an aluminium crashblock as soon as it detects something conductive touching it. It's great to watch it work: https://youtu.be/rnlTGndRi38?t=158 https://youtu.be/rnlTGndRi38?t=158 Also, the list is missing at least Mafell and Fein, but they are (like Hilti and Makita) simply owned by themselves. Edit: and Lamello!

starpilot 6y ago
Festool is also insanely expensive, like the Arcteryx of tools. My local specialty lumberyard also sells Festool, and no other tool brands.
- culturestate 6y ago
  Brands like Festool and Hilti are aimed squarely at professionals doing high-volume work. You're paying for the warranty, spare parts guarantee, and system compatibility as much as you are for the tool itself. In both cases I get the impression that if it were financially viable, they'd prefer to only do fleet sales and maintenance.
  - jschwartzi 6y ago
    Hitachi nailers are another tool I'd add to the "strictly professional" category. Their framing nailers are built like light boat anchors and you can use them the same way you'd use a sledgehammer in some applications. We would routinely use the back of the nailgun to move the wall around if it wasn't quite on target.
- 2mol 6y ago
  For personal use they are a bit overkill, but only if your cheaper tools don't break after 3 years. The professionals I know generally all use a couple expensive tools from Hiltl or Festool etc over time. They can justify a new machine on a single job that pays ~8k, the time saved with the right tool is often already worth it. And of course they are smart enough to know when they can use the "best long-lasting & cheap" tools instead of the high-end equivalents. I'm looking at you Makita PJ7000 which I bought for 150.- vs a Lamello that will be >500.- or a Festool Domino for 1k.
  - noneeeed 6y ago
    "best long-lasting & cheap" is spot on. Often, getting the very best is not worth it, no matter how long they might last. We had a lot of work done on our house a few years back, and every one of tradesmen used Makita. I asked our carpenter if they were really good, and he said no, but they we pretty good, lasted quite well, but didn't cost the earth. I think the ubiquity of Makita also made it easy to swap batteries and chargers between kit, and between people.
    - encom 6y ago
      Electrician here: Last place I worked was almost exclusively Makita (and they were big, thousands of employees), and being able to swap chargers and batteries was both a blessing and a curse. I took good care of my batteries (and everything else), and I had to be careful not to end up with some other guys battery that he'd used to drive nails with.
      - meragrin_ 6y ago
        Please tell me that people were not using the batteries as hammers.
        xnyan 6y ago
        Driving any fastener can put put of wear on batteries fast, the current requirements are high and peaky. Nails are particularity bad because unlike say, driving a screw or bolt you often don't even give they battery a second or two of break time to cool slightly while you line up your bit to the next fastener, just "BAM BAM BAM" down the line of wood as fast as you can until you drain the battery back to nil. This is one of the the best ways to kill li-ion cells fast.
        ChoGGi 6y ago
        The usual method of driving a nail with a battery isn't by turning on a tool.
- simondelacourt 6y ago
  I would not call it insanely expensive, if you compare a Bosch Glide miter saw with the kapex, yes there is a difference, but it's not insane. The same goes for other festool tools like their sanders, compare them to Rupes, Flex or any other high quality brand and the differences are marginal.
  - mauvehaus 6y ago
    Fun, unrelated fact: The Bosch Axial Glide saws use a Sarrus linkage[0], which is the oldest perfect straight line linkage. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarrus_linkage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarrus_linkage
  - mturmon 6y ago
    The Festool dust extractors are similar to what you describe. I got one for list price, a bit over $700. It's quiet, has an accessory outlet that can turn the vac on, has an option for a remote, has big wheels so it doesn't get hung up when you pull it around. Etc. The Festool is noticeably more than even the very good competitors - I think the Bosch is about $150 less, and there are others that are a bit more than the Festool. But it's not like there's a $200 shop vac that's almost as good. There are such shop vacs -- but they're a different product entirely.
- markkanof 6y ago
  They are pricey, but I would describe them more like the Apple of power tools. They have an ecosystem of tools and accessories that work together, and because they have a relatively small and consistent product line 3rd parties also make a lot of accessories that increase the utility of the tools. They are expensive compared to many other handheld power tools, but if you want something that just works and is pleasant to use then it can be worth the price.
WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
The best part about it is that SawStop went to each of the tool manufacturers asking to license their technology so people could be safer. For an extra cost of $10, they ended up having to build their own hardware because noone took them up on it.
- michaelcampbell 6y ago
  And then tried to force this technology (at whatever price they could get) by lobbying the CPSC to make it mandatory.
  - mauvehaus 6y ago
    And sued Bosch over the Bosch REAXX table saw, which is a different implementation of a similar concept. As a result, you can't buy the REAXX in the US at the moment. https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/sawstop-vs-bosch-reaxx-lawsuit-not-yet/26066/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/sawstop-vs-bosch-reaxx-l...
    - pkaye 6y ago
      Interesting because who brands are owned by different German companies. Is Bosch able to sell it in Germany though?
      - mauvehaus 6y ago
        Not sure, I'm in the US over here :-) My understanding is that US-style cabinet saws are extraordinarily rare in Europe, and sliding table saws (Altendorf, Felder, etc) dominate the European market in stationary installations. I don't know whether jobsite saws exist in Europe, which is the market segment Bosch was bringing their technology into. All that to say, in Germany, the issue may well be moot. The 2017 Festool acquisition appears to postdate the 2016 lawsuit. I have no knowledge of the acquisition timing beyond the easily googleable press releases and news articles. It may well have begun while the suit was pending.
syshum 6y ago
While impressive, I wish they would have done like other companies have done with their safety innovations (like Volvo for example with safety belts) and either given it away or at least charged a very nominal (small) licensing fee The creator of the technology created saw stop because the saw manufacturers refused to pay his price for licensing, and has since been very aggressive in enforcement of patents around the technology preventing any competition in the safety space for saws I can not get behind using IP laws to prevent companies from increasing the safety of their products, for example a few years ago Bosch attempted to bring similar saw stopping technology to market and was prevented do to a lawsuit from SawStop which resulted in a ban on the importation of the technology to the US
- fncypants 6y ago
  But aren't the IP laws in this case evidence of motivation for the creative mind? An incentive of being rewarded and not ripped off? We've had power tools without this feature for 100 years. What's a few more years to give the inventor exclusivity and a chance to profit, and then it becomes public domain? Volvo's donation of safety patents is nice, but it is a major manufacturer. The inventor of SawStop was not.
  - syshum 6y ago
    at a bear minimum we need something like FRAND for safety devices that require safety related patents to be licensed fairly, non-discriminatory and with reasonable fee's
    - SamReidHughes 6y ago
      SawStop’s creator seems to have offered reasonable fees.
      - syshum 6y ago
        Your definition of "reasonable" is clearly very different than mine as 8% of GROSS sales is not reasonable... maybe 8% of NET sales...
taytus 6y ago
Recent... it's 20 years old.
- jmercouris 6y ago
  That is pretty recent, consider when the table saw was invented

by 2mol 6y ago

starpilot 6y ago

Festool is also insanely expensive, like the Arcteryx of tools. My local specialty lumberyard also sells Festool, and no other tool brands.

culturestate 6y ago
Brands like Festool and Hilti are aimed squarely at professionals doing high-volume work. You're paying for the warranty, spare parts guarantee, and system compatibility as much as you are for the tool itself. In both cases I get the impression that if it were financially viable, they'd prefer to only do fleet sales and maintenance.
- jschwartzi 6y ago
  Hitachi nailers are another tool I'd add to the "strictly professional" category. Their framing nailers are built like light boat anchors and you can use them the same way you'd use a sledgehammer in some applications. We would routinely use the back of the nailgun to move the wall around if it wasn't quite on target.
2mol 6y ago
For personal use they are a bit overkill, but only if your cheaper tools don't break after 3 years. The professionals I know generally all use a couple expensive tools from Hiltl or Festool etc over time. They can justify a new machine on a single job that pays ~8k, the time saved with the right tool is often already worth it. And of course they are smart enough to know when they can use the "best long-lasting & cheap" tools instead of the high-end equivalents. I'm looking at you Makita PJ7000 which I bought for 150.- vs a Lamello that will be >500.- or a Festool Domino for 1k.
- noneeeed 6y ago
  "best long-lasting & cheap" is spot on. Often, getting the very best is not worth it, no matter how long they might last. We had a lot of work done on our house a few years back, and every one of tradesmen used Makita. I asked our carpenter if they were really good, and he said no, but they we pretty good, lasted quite well, but didn't cost the earth. I think the ubiquity of Makita also made it easy to swap batteries and chargers between kit, and between people.
  - encom 6y ago
    Electrician here: Last place I worked was almost exclusively Makita (and they were big, thousands of employees), and being able to swap chargers and batteries was both a blessing and a curse. I took good care of my batteries (and everything else), and I had to be careful not to end up with some other guys battery that he'd used to drive nails with.
    - meragrin_ 6y ago
      Please tell me that people were not using the batteries as hammers.
      - xnyan 6y ago
        Driving any fastener can put put of wear on batteries fast, the current requirements are high and peaky. Nails are particularity bad because unlike say, driving a screw or bolt you often don't even give they battery a second or two of break time to cool slightly while you line up your bit to the next fastener, just "BAM BAM BAM" down the line of wood as fast as you can until you drain the battery back to nil. This is one of the the best ways to kill li-ion cells fast.
        ChoGGi 6y ago
        The usual method of driving a nail with a battery isn't by turning on a tool.
simondelacourt 6y ago
I would not call it insanely expensive, if you compare a Bosch Glide miter saw with the kapex, yes there is a difference, but it's not insane. The same goes for other festool tools like their sanders, compare them to Rupes, Flex or any other high quality brand and the differences are marginal.
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  Fun, unrelated fact: The Bosch Axial Glide saws use a Sarrus linkage[0], which is the oldest perfect straight line linkage. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarrus_linkage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarrus_linkage
- mturmon 6y ago
  The Festool dust extractors are similar to what you describe. I got one for list price, a bit over $700. It's quiet, has an accessory outlet that can turn the vac on, has an option for a remote, has big wheels so it doesn't get hung up when you pull it around. Etc. The Festool is noticeably more than even the very good competitors - I think the Bosch is about $150 less, and there are others that are a bit more than the Festool. But it's not like there's a $200 shop vac that's almost as good. There are such shop vacs -- but they're a different product entirely.
markkanof 6y ago
They are pricey, but I would describe them more like the Apple of power tools. They have an ecosystem of tools and accessories that work together, and because they have a relatively small and consistent product line 3rd parties also make a lot of accessories that increase the utility of the tools. They are expensive compared to many other handheld power tools, but if you want something that just works and is pleasant to use then it can be worth the price.

WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago

The best part about it is that SawStop went to each of the tool manufacturers asking to license their technology so people could be safer. For an extra cost of $10, they ended up having to build their own hardware because noone took them up on it.

michaelcampbell 6y ago
And then tried to force this technology (at whatever price they could get) by lobbying the CPSC to make it mandatory.
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  And sued Bosch over the Bosch REAXX table saw, which is a different implementation of a similar concept. As a result, you can't buy the REAXX in the US at the moment. https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/sawstop-vs-bosch-reaxx-lawsuit-not-yet/26066/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/sawstop-vs-bosch-reaxx-l...
  - pkaye 6y ago
    Interesting because who brands are owned by different German companies. Is Bosch able to sell it in Germany though?
    - mauvehaus 6y ago
      Not sure, I'm in the US over here :-) My understanding is that US-style cabinet saws are extraordinarily rare in Europe, and sliding table saws (Altendorf, Felder, etc) dominate the European market in stationary installations. I don't know whether jobsite saws exist in Europe, which is the market segment Bosch was bringing their technology into. All that to say, in Germany, the issue may well be moot. The 2017 Festool acquisition appears to postdate the 2016 lawsuit. I have no knowledge of the acquisition timing beyond the easily googleable press releases and news articles. It may well have begun while the suit was pending.

syshum 6y ago

While impressive, I wish they would have done like other companies have done with their safety innovations (like Volvo for example with safety belts) and either given it away or at least charged a very nominal (small) licensing fee The creator of the technology created saw stop because the saw manufacturers refused to pay his price for licensing, and has since been very aggressive in enforcement of patents around the technology preventing any competition in the safety space for saws I can not get behind using IP laws to prevent companies from increasing the safety of their products, for example a few years ago Bosch attempted to bring similar saw stopping technology to market and was prevented do to a lawsuit from SawStop which resulted in a ban on the importation of the technology to the US

fncypants 6y ago
But aren't the IP laws in this case evidence of motivation for the creative mind? An incentive of being rewarded and not ripped off? We've had power tools without this feature for 100 years. What's a few more years to give the inventor exclusivity and a chance to profit, and then it becomes public domain? Volvo's donation of safety patents is nice, but it is a major manufacturer. The inventor of SawStop was not.
- syshum 6y ago
  at a bear minimum we need something like FRAND for safety devices that require safety related patents to be licensed fairly, non-discriminatory and with reasonable fee's
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    SawStop’s creator seems to have offered reasonable fees.
    - syshum 6y ago
      Your definition of "reasonable" is clearly very different than mine as 8% of GROSS sales is not reasonable... maybe 8% of NET sales...

taytus 6y ago

Recent... it's 20 years old.

jmercouris 6y ago
That is pretty recent, consider when the table saw was invented