8 ms·

I love this initiative in principle, but the instructions left a rather sour taste in my mouth. Create a Firebase app, download and install Node and run some ar

I love this initiative in principle, but the instructions left a rather sour taste in my mouth. Create a Firebase app, download and install Node and run some arcane cli commands? For what? To upload a 10-byte HTML file somewhere? Please, do yourself and us a favour and sign up for a free account on https://neocities.org https://neocities.org, and make a quirky website by hand for all of us to enjoy. I half want to write a post like this but with dead-simple instructions, like "Open Notepad, write <html><body>Hello!</body></html>" inside and upload it to Neocities. Congratulations, you now have a website!" A good addition would be a nice CSS stylesheet (https://newcss.net/ https://newcss.net/ looks good, linked by sdan in his comment here) to get the site looking nice and mobile-friendly. That's pretty much all you need to make a simple website.

reificator 6y ago
Not affiliated but I think Netlify offers a similar level of initial effort but with more room for later growth.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  Yeah, they let you drag and drop a zip file to create a site, but is geared more towards companies/professionals. Neocities is more geared towards a community of independent creators, though, so I'd rather support/promote them for indie stuff.
  - unityByFreedom 6y ago
    That's a cool initiative. The HN in me wants to critique it a bit. Why no markdown or WYSIWYG editor? Is it because that would turn it into wordpress? I feel like there's a place for a service that can, * Host static content like netlify/neocities on a CDN * Allow you to register a domain * Choose a template and enter content with basic markup This should be able to be done in < 5 minutes for a non-tech user. You'd think registrars would be incentivized to build such a service. edit: ~~markup~~ markdown/WYSIWYG
    - kick 6y ago
      WYSIWYG editors are universally bad, and so are Markdown ones. The benefit of Markdown is that you just write it in a text editor. You don't need syntax highlighting to use it effectively. Take reddit, as an example, which got millions of people to write perfect Markdown as intuitively as writing English.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        It really depends on the editor. Some editors give you raw access to the underlying code and apply styles to it as you type, kind of like syntax highlighting. Some actually try to be rich text editors with a (usually restricted) Markdown input. You can guess which ones make me want to flip a table. (Hint: Slack, fix your editor!)
        oefrha 6y ago
        If you think Slack is bad, try https://github.community/ https://github.community/.
        unityByFreedom 6y ago
        > You ranked up to Ground Controller Lvl 1 I hate those undisableable social media accomplishments that come up as notifications, is Github.community based on Discourse or did it just copy their bad ideas? edit: wow you can disable them in this one, amazing. I still hate it.
        woodrowbarlow 6y ago
        i think slack now allows you to disable the visual editor in settings - you can still format with markdown but the formatting isn't rendered until you send.
        ssb1 6y ago
        Yeah but it's half-arsed; specifically, doesn't do [links](...).
- 013a 6y ago
  I'll second Netlify. Totally fantastic service; I've played with a lot of "github to deployed app" services, and I was still blown away with how straightforward it was to get a NextJS static site on there, auto-deploying, on a custom domain, with site analytics built-in, no code required.
gjs278 6y ago
it’s because new programmers now don’t understand how to make websites. they blindly follow nodejs tutorials. their knowledge collapses as soon as the first bug hits that isn’t solved by stackoverflow or github for them. they have no clue how to debug or how a site works on a static setup in a normal web server.
darepublic 6y ago
Yeah I also was a bit thrown by the tiny website morphing into installing firebase
Thorentis 6y ago
Yeah, that whole Firebase thing was not necessary. After creating the public folder, dragging and dropping it onto Netlify would've instantly given you a public website. No commands necessary. I use Netlify for everything, even hosting a static blog generated in Hugo. All free, only thing I pay for is my domain.
wyattpeak 6y ago
I find myself torn on the specific instructions. It's certainly a lot more arcane than my early sites, but that was mostly because there was a whole lot of boilerplate handled by the host (Enter these details into your FTP program, put your files into public_html, start with index.html). I didn't have any idea what Apache was, how files were served, or really anything about internet infrastructure. And that's fine, certainly good for a kid or to whip up a quick business site, but it doesn't satisfy the hacker in me today. There's too much magic going on behind the scenes for me to feel much ownership of it. I suppose it sort of depends who you're aiming it at. TFA didn't feel to me like it was trying to approach novices (after all, it's talking about leaving frameworks and libraries behind, novices aren't much using frameworks). Your instructions are good for an easy introduction for people with no web development experience, to recreate that sense of ease, but I think it's a different thing from what the article is going for. Even a simple site requires a fair bit under the hood, because serving files isn't all that simple unless you just hide it away from the end-user.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  I don't know, I mostly agree with you, but I disagree that a simple site requires that much. Just drop the files in a folder in some web server and you're done.
  - ta17711771 6y ago
    Authoritative voice, the creator of Imgz.org (huge fan).
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      Hahaha, thank you! Nobody uses that but I love it.
      - ta17711771 6y ago
        Don't call me nobody!
lazyjeff 6y ago
Agreed, you'll lose access to all that server-side stuff after not too long. Just do something dead simple: single page of vanilla html/css. You'll have to move it at some point, the hosting server will need updating or shut down, and a single file is way easier to move around.
- FerretFred 6y ago
  I embed images in my web pages using base64 blacks so there's no need to worry about having to move images around.
cwmartin 6y ago
https://glitch.com https://glitch.com is also excellent. I’ve been using it to teach a website development workshop to 10-15 year olds and it’s the most intuitive interface I’ve found so far for those with no prior experience with HTML/CSS/JS.
matthewhartmans 6y ago
Agreed. Or just commit directly to Github, enable pages, job done :)
kyawzazaw 6y ago
this is actually how I have my personal website. fairly easy in my opinion.
hnick 6y ago
Neocities was refreshing. I really miss simple fan websites like https://distantskies.neocities.org/ https://distantskies.neocities.org/
grifball 6y ago
oh, wow, just read that complicated cli/firebase stuff. yeah, even easier (or maybe more minimalistic) would be: goto 192.168.0.1 (or .1.1) and figure out how to port forward '80' to your machine. install apache goto a dynamic dns service, get some sub-subdomain, and setup a curl script to set it to your IP. put an html file in your apache server. voila, you have your own website* *if your ISP allows traffic on port 80
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  I think for non-techie users these things are equivalently difficult. For me, I hate installing stuff, last time I installed Apache must have been before 2004, and I would like to not have to go back.
- nmeofthestate 6y ago
  It's funny that you think all that stuff is easier.
mro_name 6y ago
Indeed, I hear node and have to think of 'gordian'. No idea why.
rakoo 6y ago
I do agree that beyond the site being tiny, an important part of taking control back is to question the hosting part. The "traditional" web is, unfortunately, not fit for minimum hosting without either shelling out some money or depending on a third-party (however good it is). It is high time decentralized web alternatives gain adoption. How to host your tiny website with beaker (https://beakerbrowser.com/ https://beakerbrowser.com/) 1. Open Beaker 2. If you don't have any content, select "New Hyperdrive" from the burger menu, enter your site name, and start editing content with the integrated editor 3. If you already have a folder with content, select "New Hyperdrive from folder" 4. You have a website ! Update it locally and changes will be propagated. Your site address is the hyperlink in the URL bar ! There shouldn't need to be more steps and, more importantly, dependencies on external processes/companies/organization to say what you want to say and spread it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- StavrosK 6y ago
  You do need to keep your computer always[0] on, though. I don't mind depending on external companies, I mind depending on external companies that I can't pay to ensure their loyalty to me. [0] For varying values of "always".
  - scarface74 6y ago
    If it’s really a tiny website could it be hosted on a Raspberry Pi that you kept always on?
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    My computer has been on (barring upgrades and software update reboots) since I built it and put it on the desk. Which has been what 3 years?
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      If there's one universal thing I've learned, it's that we generalize poorly.
cyrialize 6y ago
I do exactly what you recommend. My website, https://cyrialize.dev/ https://cyrialize.dev/, is hosted on Neocities. I used jekyll to create it and I use water.css which I found on CSS Bed (https://www.cssbed.com/ https://www.cssbed.com/). The Neocities gem is VERY useful. My process is super simple, it's basically: - Make changes - Commit & Push - jekyll build - neocities push _site/
- StavrosK 6y ago
  I agree with you so much, I even removed the push step and have Gitlab CI do it for me: https://gitlab.com/stavros/neocities-gitlab-ci-demo https://gitlab.com/stavros/neocities-gitlab-ci-demo
  - cyrialize 6y ago
    Holy cow, I never thought about doing that. I think there's a similar thing in Github, I'll definitely check it out.
  - j4yav 6y ago
    Nice! You can actually get even a bit simpler with it. I am working on contributing a template for Neocities to GitLab that does not require even a subscription account: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/merge_requests/32640 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/merge_requests/32640 I'm using it to deploy my own site (which happens to be subscription, but that isn't required): https://metaluna.io/ https://metaluna.io/
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      Oh that would be fantastic! Where will this template show up? I didn't know Gitlab had CI templates. How do you upload files without WebDAV? As far as I know, there's no API. BTW I'm not sure if it still exists, but they had a lifetime supporter account, where you can get a lifetime subscription for $100 in Bitcoin. I got it to support the effort, though I don't really use it, but a bunch of Terabytes of bandwidth and 50 GB of hosting space won't go to waste.

reificator 6y ago

Not affiliated but I think Netlify offers a similar level of initial effort but with more room for later growth.

StavrosK 6y ago
Yeah, they let you drag and drop a zip file to create a site, but is geared more towards companies/professionals. Neocities is more geared towards a community of independent creators, though, so I'd rather support/promote them for indie stuff.
- unityByFreedom 6y ago
  That's a cool initiative. The HN in me wants to critique it a bit. Why no markdown or WYSIWYG editor? Is it because that would turn it into wordpress? I feel like there's a place for a service that can, * Host static content like netlify/neocities on a CDN * Allow you to register a domain * Choose a template and enter content with basic markup This should be able to be done in < 5 minutes for a non-tech user. You'd think registrars would be incentivized to build such a service. edit: ~~markup~~ markdown/WYSIWYG
  - kick 6y ago
    WYSIWYG editors are universally bad, and so are Markdown ones. The benefit of Markdown is that you just write it in a text editor. You don't need syntax highlighting to use it effectively. Take reddit, as an example, which got millions of people to write perfect Markdown as intuitively as writing English.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      It really depends on the editor. Some editors give you raw access to the underlying code and apply styles to it as you type, kind of like syntax highlighting. Some actually try to be rich text editors with a (usually restricted) Markdown input. You can guess which ones make me want to flip a table. (Hint: Slack, fix your editor!)
      - oefrha 6y ago
        If you think Slack is bad, try https://github.community/ https://github.community/.
        unityByFreedom 6y ago
        > You ranked up to Ground Controller Lvl 1 I hate those undisableable social media accomplishments that come up as notifications, is Github.community based on Discourse or did it just copy their bad ideas? edit: wow you can disable them in this one, amazing. I still hate it.
      - woodrowbarlow 6y ago
        i think slack now allows you to disable the visual editor in settings - you can still format with markdown but the formatting isn't rendered until you send.
        ssb1 6y ago
        Yeah but it's half-arsed; specifically, doesn't do [links](...).
013a 6y ago
I'll second Netlify. Totally fantastic service; I've played with a lot of "github to deployed app" services, and I was still blown away with how straightforward it was to get a NextJS static site on there, auto-deploying, on a custom domain, with site analytics built-in, no code required.

gjs278 6y ago

it’s because new programmers now don’t understand how to make websites. they blindly follow nodejs tutorials. their knowledge collapses as soon as the first bug hits that isn’t solved by stackoverflow or github for them. they have no clue how to debug or how a site works on a static setup in a normal web server.

darepublic 6y ago

Yeah I also was a bit thrown by the tiny website morphing into installing firebase

Thorentis 6y ago

Yeah, that whole Firebase thing was not necessary. After creating the public folder, dragging and dropping it onto Netlify would've instantly given you a public website. No commands necessary. I use Netlify for everything, even hosting a static blog generated in Hugo. All free, only thing I pay for is my domain.

wyattpeak 6y ago

I find myself torn on the specific instructions. It's certainly a lot more arcane than my early sites, but that was mostly because there was a whole lot of boilerplate handled by the host (Enter these details into your FTP program, put your files into public_html, start with index.html). I didn't have any idea what Apache was, how files were served, or really anything about internet infrastructure. And that's fine, certainly good for a kid or to whip up a quick business site, but it doesn't satisfy the hacker in me today. There's too much magic going on behind the scenes for me to feel much ownership of it. I suppose it sort of depends who you're aiming it at. TFA didn't feel to me like it was trying to approach novices (after all, it's talking about leaving frameworks and libraries behind, novices aren't much using frameworks). Your instructions are good for an easy introduction for people with no web development experience, to recreate that sense of ease, but I think it's a different thing from what the article is going for. Even a simple site requires a fair bit under the hood, because serving files isn't all that simple unless you just hide it away from the end-user.

StavrosK 6y ago
I don't know, I mostly agree with you, but I disagree that a simple site requires that much. Just drop the files in a folder in some web server and you're done.
- ta17711771 6y ago
  Authoritative voice, the creator of Imgz.org (huge fan).
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    Hahaha, thank you! Nobody uses that but I love it.
    - ta17711771 6y ago
      Don't call me nobody!

lazyjeff 6y ago

Agreed, you'll lose access to all that server-side stuff after not too long. Just do something dead simple: single page of vanilla html/css. You'll have to move it at some point, the hosting server will need updating or shut down, and a single file is way easier to move around.

FerretFred 6y ago
I embed images in my web pages using base64 blacks so there's no need to worry about having to move images around.

cwmartin 6y ago

https://glitch.com https://glitch.com is also excellent. I’ve been using it to teach a website development workshop to 10-15 year olds and it’s the most intuitive interface I’ve found so far for those with no prior experience with HTML/CSS/JS.

matthewhartmans 6y ago

Agreed. Or just commit directly to Github, enable pages, job done :)

kyawzazaw 6y ago

this is actually how I have my personal website. fairly easy in my opinion.

hnick 6y ago

Neocities was refreshing. I really miss simple fan websites like https://distantskies.neocities.org/ https://distantskies.neocities.org/

grifball 6y ago

oh, wow, just read that complicated cli/firebase stuff. yeah, even easier (or maybe more minimalistic) would be: goto 192.168.0.1 (or .1.1) and figure out how to port forward '80' to your machine. install apache goto a dynamic dns service, get some sub-subdomain, and setup a curl script to set it to your IP. put an html file in your apache server. voila, you have your own website* *if your ISP allows traffic on port 80

bryanrasmussen 6y ago
I think for non-techie users these things are equivalently difficult. For me, I hate installing stuff, last time I installed Apache must have been before 2004, and I would like to not have to go back.
nmeofthestate 6y ago
It's funny that you think all that stuff is easier.

mro_name 6y ago

Indeed, I hear node and have to think of 'gordian'. No idea why.

rakoo 6y ago

I do agree that beyond the site being tiny, an important part of taking control back is to question the hosting part. The "traditional" web is, unfortunately, not fit for minimum hosting without either shelling out some money or depending on a third-party (however good it is). It is high time decentralized web alternatives gain adoption. How to host your tiny website with beaker (https://beakerbrowser.com/ https://beakerbrowser.com/) 1. Open Beaker 2. If you don't have any content, select "New Hyperdrive" from the burger menu, enter your site name, and start editing content with the integrated editor 3. If you already have a folder with content, select "New Hyperdrive from folder" 4. You have a website ! Update it locally and changes will be propagated. Your site address is the hyperlink in the URL bar ! There shouldn't need to be more steps and, more importantly, dependencies on external processes/companies/organization to say what you want to say and spread it.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
StavrosK 6y ago
You do need to keep your computer always[0] on, though. I don't mind depending on external companies, I mind depending on external companies that I can't pay to ensure their loyalty to me. [0] For varying values of "always".
- scarface74 6y ago
  If it’s really a tiny website could it be hosted on a Raspberry Pi that you kept always on?
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  My computer has been on (barring upgrades and software update reboots) since I built it and put it on the desk. Which has been what 3 years?
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    If there's one universal thing I've learned, it's that we generalize poorly.

cyrialize 6y ago

I do exactly what you recommend. My website, https://cyrialize.dev/ https://cyrialize.dev/, is hosted on Neocities. I used jekyll to create it and I use water.css which I found on CSS Bed (https://www.cssbed.com/ https://www.cssbed.com/). The Neocities gem is VERY useful. My process is super simple, it's basically: - Make changes - Commit & Push - jekyll build - neocities push _site/

StavrosK 6y ago
I agree with you so much, I even removed the push step and have Gitlab CI do it for me: https://gitlab.com/stavros/neocities-gitlab-ci-demo https://gitlab.com/stavros/neocities-gitlab-ci-demo
- cyrialize 6y ago
  Holy cow, I never thought about doing that. I think there's a similar thing in Github, I'll definitely check it out.
- j4yav 6y ago
  Nice! You can actually get even a bit simpler with it. I am working on contributing a template for Neocities to GitLab that does not require even a subscription account: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/merge_requests/32640 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/merge_requests/32640 I'm using it to deploy my own site (which happens to be subscription, but that isn't required): https://metaluna.io/ https://metaluna.io/
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    Oh that would be fantastic! Where will this template show up? I didn't know Gitlab had CI templates. How do you upload files without WebDAV? As far as I know, there's no API. BTW I'm not sure if it still exists, but they had a lifetime supporter account, where you can get a lifetime subscription for $100 in Bitcoin. I got it to support the effort, though I don't really use it, but a bunch of Terabytes of bandwidth and 50 GB of hosting space won't go to waste.