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Giving zero days notice to your 3rd-party developers is one way to anger a relatively powerful bunch of your users. Many people will find today that their hobby

Giving zero days notice to your 3rd-party developers is one way to anger a relatively powerful bunch of your users. Many people will find today that their hobby/side-project is now dead in the water. I hope nobody was relying on any income from software using these APIs. But the 'best' bit: "We realize these changes could be especially challenging for some of you, so they’ll be non-breaking for 30 days, returning empty data during that time so you can make necessary adjustments" What on earth is non-breaking about this? I have not enjoyed working with the Strava API myself but thankfully I have not wasted as much time as some poor devs. The thing is a total mess as it is, parts of the API were effectively crippled beyond use following some bizarre privacy-based change some time ago. Get your act together Strava.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> Giving zero days notice to your 3rd-party developers is one way to anger a relatively powerful bunch of your users. I understand the frustration, but I also understand Strava's desire to rip the band-aid off and just shut it down. When it comes to free APIs, a sunsetting period gives a lot of people the idea that they can change the company's mind if they complain loudly enough, make enough noise on social media, or threaten boycotts and other punishments for the company. Ironically, the longer the sunset period, the angrier people get. Also, I'm not convinced the 3rd-party API consumers are particularly powerful in this case. Strava is obviously focusing on profitability, so removing access to a free feature that appears in other company's apps isn't likely to make much difference to the company. Their plan sounds like exactly what they need to do: Focus on building a core product that people will feel the need to pay for. Giving 90% of the value proposition away for free, including letting it show up in 3rd-party apps, isn't a great path to profitability unless they have another 10% of extremely valuable paid add-on content. As a Strava user, I've never felt compelled to upgrade because all of the functionality I actually wanted was free.
- kingosticks 6y ago
  I agree, I don't think they have much power. But what I said was they are relatively more powerful, and I meant compared to regular free users. Some 3rd-party devs will have apps with many, many users and those users will likely value the work the developer has put in. They will be forced to relay the news to all their users right now and I imagine they'll still be pretty angry about it. And I also entirely agree Strava needs to change. Their strategy has been non-existent for years. I was a paid subscriber for around 2 years. In that time I dutifully (naively) submitted bug reports and feature requests since I wasn't really getting much use out of the premium features but I wanted to support it. However, I never saw any value in the few changes they made so I figured my support was misplaced. I've been a happy free user ever since. I use their platform as a way bring together my data that's spread across 9 years and various Garmin, Wahoo and TomTom devices. I put quite a lot of value in that data and I trust Strava with it all. I definitely trust them less now. I think they could have handled this a lot better.
  - jhrmnn 6y ago
    At least Strava is reasonable about getting your own data out of it. Not sure if this applies just to EU users, but it's easy to download a full archive with the original uploaded gpx/fit files (whether they came from a manual upload or a 3rd party). Last time I checked (which wasn't too long after GDPR was introduced), Garmin didn't really support a bulk download of the raw data, and neither did Fitbit.
    - nradov 6y ago
      You can do a bulk download of FIT files directly from Garmin devices using a USB cable but eventually older activities get purged. There is an API for Garmin Connect which you could use for bulk download but it isn't really open. You have to sign a license agreement with Garmin and adhere to particular terms.
    - gamblor956 6y ago
      Garmin Connect (website) > Activities > Export CSV Exported several years worth of activities with all data collected by my watch.
      - nradov 6y ago
        CSV export is very limited. It lacks the second-by-second data in the original FIT file which you need for real analytics.
    - bbbbbr 6y ago
      While not official, there is a script posted to the Garmin forums which allows for bulk download/export of FIT/TCX/etc data. https://forums.garmin.com/apps-software/mobile-apps-web/f/garmin-connect-web/166824/is-there-a-way-to-export-bulk-data-to-tcx-or-gpx-files-seems-like-i-can-only-bulk-export-to-csv-and-individual-activities-to-gpx https://forums.garmin.com/apps-software/mobile-apps-web/f/ga... Here's a version I've improved a little + adding export of "wellness" data. This thread was a good reminder to push my changes out to github. https://github.com/bbbbbr/garmin-connect-bulk-export https://github.com/bbbbbr/garmin-connect-bulk-export Edit, add: Lastly, while the UI has some quirks and it doesn't have a social component, My Tourbook is a solid offline, cross-platform alternative to the online fitness repositories. There is something to be said for having complete control over your data (make sure to do backups). http://mytourbook.sourceforge.net/mytourbook/ http://mytourbook.sourceforge.net/mytourbook/
- johannes1234321 6y ago
  > When it comes to free APIs, a sunsetting period gives a lot of people the idea that they can change the company's mind Also it gives bad actors the idea to extract all the data they can get, before access is gone, leading to many uncontrolled pools of personal data.
czbond 6y ago
I am not sure the current state, but they were looking for a CTO in ~2019 for what seemed like a very long time. Current CTO specializes in ML, so maybe current team isn't really aware of working in the real universe of large applications w/ partners and partner communication. (Conjecture) BC ML background is mostly data driven, internally focused
crisnoble 6y ago
The API changes impact 3rd party apps that deal with segment and segment leaderboard data. That is not trivial and surely the reason many people use veloviewer. Seems as though 3rd party apps focused on aggregate stats and exploration (statshunters, wandrer.earth, veloviewer's explorer tiles feature) will not be impacted afaict. When I first read the post, my heart sank as these 3rd party exploration layers have given me a whole new reason to ride.
pedalpete 6y ago
Is this affecting your app negatively? They reached out to us a few months ago, and didn't directly state what they were doing, but strongly suggested we be prepared for changes to the API.
- kingosticks 6y ago
  No, I don't use the leaderboards/segments at all fortunately. But I am concerned the APIs I do use will stop working next week. It's really nice they contacted some API users about incoming changes but outside of this inner circle it will have come as an unpleasant surprise today. Out of interest, how did you prepare for unstated API changes? What if their change had crippled your integration, or did they contact to inform you it wouldn't?
  - pedalpete 6y ago
    We speak to them a few times a year, it was just kinda mentioned that some changes were coming to leaderboards. We had been considering using some of the learderboard stuff, so it was fortunate for us that they mentioned it. I can answer this in two parts, as we are both consumers of the Strava API, as well as providing an API (of non-strava data) to other businesses. When using another API, you always have to be prepared for that data to not be available. This isn't just from a business point of view, but technical as well. Will a change in their API cause your entire app to fall over? Even with our Strava integration, if Strava cut off access, the users can still upload their GPX tracks directly, so it would definitely hurt, but not take us down completely. When we are working on our own API, man..I'll be honest, it's hard. From a technical perspective managing lots of versions running at the same time can be a pain, and add quite a bit of challenge to engineering. We have had to remove features, and we've reached out to our API users who use those features to say they are going away (or sometimes we just turn them off, and nobody notices). When we've had to turn off features, it's usually a business case, just like Strava, and to be honest, our customers have understood why we make the change, and have been accepting of it. Sounds like you're a Strava user, we built https://ayvri.com https://ayvri.com
    - 6y ago
ACow_Adonis 6y ago
Literally lol'd. That's such a corporate IT department/consulting type sentence. "We aren't breaking the API, because its still being delivered to you. There'll be no data come through it, (and who would ever connect to an API to extract/rely upon the data coming through it) but the API IS BEING DELIVERED SO ITS NOT BREAKING!!!!" Literally the old consultant joke: "Here's your warm coffee cup. What?! You wanted coffee in it?!"

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

> Giving zero days notice to your 3rd-party developers is one way to anger a relatively powerful bunch of your users. I understand the frustration, but I also understand Strava's desire to rip the band-aid off and just shut it down. When it comes to free APIs, a sunsetting period gives a lot of people the idea that they can change the company's mind if they complain loudly enough, make enough noise on social media, or threaten boycotts and other punishments for the company. Ironically, the longer the sunset period, the angrier people get. Also, I'm not convinced the 3rd-party API consumers are particularly powerful in this case. Strava is obviously focusing on profitability, so removing access to a free feature that appears in other company's apps isn't likely to make much difference to the company. Their plan sounds like exactly what they need to do: Focus on building a core product that people will feel the need to pay for. Giving 90% of the value proposition away for free, including letting it show up in 3rd-party apps, isn't a great path to profitability unless they have another 10% of extremely valuable paid add-on content. As a Strava user, I've never felt compelled to upgrade because all of the functionality I actually wanted was free.

kingosticks 6y ago
I agree, I don't think they have much power. But what I said was they are relatively more powerful, and I meant compared to regular free users. Some 3rd-party devs will have apps with many, many users and those users will likely value the work the developer has put in. They will be forced to relay the news to all their users right now and I imagine they'll still be pretty angry about it. And I also entirely agree Strava needs to change. Their strategy has been non-existent for years. I was a paid subscriber for around 2 years. In that time I dutifully (naively) submitted bug reports and feature requests since I wasn't really getting much use out of the premium features but I wanted to support it. However, I never saw any value in the few changes they made so I figured my support was misplaced. I've been a happy free user ever since. I use their platform as a way bring together my data that's spread across 9 years and various Garmin, Wahoo and TomTom devices. I put quite a lot of value in that data and I trust Strava with it all. I definitely trust them less now. I think they could have handled this a lot better.
- jhrmnn 6y ago
  At least Strava is reasonable about getting your own data out of it. Not sure if this applies just to EU users, but it's easy to download a full archive with the original uploaded gpx/fit files (whether they came from a manual upload or a 3rd party). Last time I checked (which wasn't too long after GDPR was introduced), Garmin didn't really support a bulk download of the raw data, and neither did Fitbit.
  - nradov 6y ago
    You can do a bulk download of FIT files directly from Garmin devices using a USB cable but eventually older activities get purged. There is an API for Garmin Connect which you could use for bulk download but it isn't really open. You have to sign a license agreement with Garmin and adhere to particular terms.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    Garmin Connect (website) > Activities > Export CSV Exported several years worth of activities with all data collected by my watch.
    - nradov 6y ago
      CSV export is very limited. It lacks the second-by-second data in the original FIT file which you need for real analytics.
  - bbbbbr 6y ago
    While not official, there is a script posted to the Garmin forums which allows for bulk download/export of FIT/TCX/etc data. https://forums.garmin.com/apps-software/mobile-apps-web/f/garmin-connect-web/166824/is-there-a-way-to-export-bulk-data-to-tcx-or-gpx-files-seems-like-i-can-only-bulk-export-to-csv-and-individual-activities-to-gpx https://forums.garmin.com/apps-software/mobile-apps-web/f/ga... Here's a version I've improved a little + adding export of "wellness" data. This thread was a good reminder to push my changes out to github. https://github.com/bbbbbr/garmin-connect-bulk-export https://github.com/bbbbbr/garmin-connect-bulk-export Edit, add: Lastly, while the UI has some quirks and it doesn't have a social component, My Tourbook is a solid offline, cross-platform alternative to the online fitness repositories. There is something to be said for having complete control over your data (make sure to do backups). http://mytourbook.sourceforge.net/mytourbook/ http://mytourbook.sourceforge.net/mytourbook/
johannes1234321 6y ago
> When it comes to free APIs, a sunsetting period gives a lot of people the idea that they can change the company's mind Also it gives bad actors the idea to extract all the data they can get, before access is gone, leading to many uncontrolled pools of personal data.

czbond 6y ago

I am not sure the current state, but they were looking for a CTO in ~2019 for what seemed like a very long time. Current CTO specializes in ML, so maybe current team isn't really aware of working in the real universe of large applications w/ partners and partner communication. (Conjecture) BC ML background is mostly data driven, internally focused

crisnoble 6y ago

The API changes impact 3rd party apps that deal with segment and segment leaderboard data. That is not trivial and surely the reason many people use veloviewer. Seems as though 3rd party apps focused on aggregate stats and exploration (statshunters, wandrer.earth, veloviewer's explorer tiles feature) will not be impacted afaict. When I first read the post, my heart sank as these 3rd party exploration layers have given me a whole new reason to ride.

pedalpete 6y ago

Is this affecting your app negatively? They reached out to us a few months ago, and didn't directly state what they were doing, but strongly suggested we be prepared for changes to the API.

kingosticks 6y ago
No, I don't use the leaderboards/segments at all fortunately. But I am concerned the APIs I do use will stop working next week. It's really nice they contacted some API users about incoming changes but outside of this inner circle it will have come as an unpleasant surprise today. Out of interest, how did you prepare for unstated API changes? What if their change had crippled your integration, or did they contact to inform you it wouldn't?
- pedalpete 6y ago
  We speak to them a few times a year, it was just kinda mentioned that some changes were coming to leaderboards. We had been considering using some of the learderboard stuff, so it was fortunate for us that they mentioned it. I can answer this in two parts, as we are both consumers of the Strava API, as well as providing an API (of non-strava data) to other businesses. When using another API, you always have to be prepared for that data to not be available. This isn't just from a business point of view, but technical as well. Will a change in their API cause your entire app to fall over? Even with our Strava integration, if Strava cut off access, the users can still upload their GPX tracks directly, so it would definitely hurt, but not take us down completely. When we are working on our own API, man..I'll be honest, it's hard. From a technical perspective managing lots of versions running at the same time can be a pain, and add quite a bit of challenge to engineering. We have had to remove features, and we've reached out to our API users who use those features to say they are going away (or sometimes we just turn them off, and nobody notices). When we've had to turn off features, it's usually a business case, just like Strava, and to be honest, our customers have understood why we make the change, and have been accepting of it. Sounds like you're a Strava user, we built https://ayvri.com https://ayvri.com
  - 6y ago

ACow_Adonis 6y ago

Literally lol'd. That's such a corporate IT department/consulting type sentence. "We aren't breaking the API, because its still being delivered to you. There'll be no data come through it, (and who would ever connect to an API to extract/rely upon the data coming through it) but the API IS BEING DELIVERED SO ITS NOT BREAKING!!!!" Literally the old consultant joke: "Here's your warm coffee cup. What?! You wanted coffee in it?!"