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> I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline It's very common. Studies on sleep deprivation r

• hawkice 6y ago
  This is by far the most important thing for HN to learn about this. The default level of self deception on this front is enormous.
  • conistonwater 6y ago
    I don't think it's quite the same as self-deception. The way I understood it is that it's more like alcohol: the first thing to go is your ability to judge for yourself whether your judgment is impaired.
    • kweinber 6y ago
      It is fair to say that using your cognition to measure your own cognitive decline is unreliable ;-)
  • wayoutthere 6y ago
    I think the other part to remember is that the author of the article is 22. I didn't need sleep either when I was his age. I don't mean he's naive, just that a 22-year-old can abuse their body without too many negative consequences. As someone in my late 30s, I definitely feel it when I only get 4 hours of sleep.
    • kelnos 6y ago
      That was my first thought as well (I"m in my late 30s too). When I was in college I could pull several all-nighters in a row without feeling too bad, or get 5-6 hours a sleep a night nearly indefinitely without too much trouble. Nowadays... not so much.
    • PakG1 6y ago
      Yup. Also in late 30s, and damn. I used to pull off all-nighters no problem in my 20s. Last night, I needed to do some work that didn't get done before, and by 2am, I was falling asleep in front of my keyboard. Ah, naivete of the young. :)
    • fisherjeff 6y ago
      YES. Becoming a parent in my mid-30s taught me many things, including just how much more energy I had in my 20s
      • noisy_boy 6y ago
        Maybe there is some wisdom in getting married/having kids at an younger age. I know, it is way more complicated than that..
    • toxik 6y ago
      I don't know what type of drugs you guys were eating in your 20's but if I pulled an all-nighter, I was absolutely ruined the next day and a bit the day after that. Even in my teens.
      • WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
        To be honest in my early 20s, I'd do no sleep the entire finals week just cramming for shit... then take a three day nap.
      • mcculley 6y ago
        While consuming no drugs other than caffeine, I was regularly able to work for up to three days without sleep in my early twenties. At 48, I’m much more affected by my sleep schedule. Young people are simply more resilient, some more than others.
      • Piskvorrr 6y ago
        To pile on the anecdata: an all-nighter in my 20s was something feasible, even going through the next day (as in, day+night+day feeling fully awake, then resume usual behavior with normal night's sleep, and no further effects); at 25, this became harder, with a crash in the afternoon, at 30, an all-nighter meant sleeping through the next day, and currently just not getting at least 6 hrs of sleep will crash me the next afternoon. sigh
      • Steve44 6y ago
        Another anecdote. When I was 19 I did a quick conversion job for a company. I'd take an early train down on a Monday morning, worked about 20 hours a day with just a quick nap each night on the reception sofa, and then a train home of Friday. I did that for two weeks, I was shattered but got through it OK.
  • milesvp 6y ago
    Seriously. The experiments with oxygen deprivation are very telling on this front. There's literally a button to press before you black out to give you oxygen, and people don't press it. Simple tasks, like identifying playing cards, people fail at, yet are convinced they've correctly identified the card. Our brains are amazing at lying to us.
• rxhernandez 6y ago
  I wonder if recognizing your cognitive decline is a cultural issue or something else; it couldn't be more clear that I am unable traverse many layers of abstraction when I havent slept enough; it was also apparent to everyone in my physics undergrad that they couldn't handle statistical mechanics with sleep deprivation.
  • take_a_breath 6y ago
    Wearing sleep-depravation as a badge-of-honor seems like an American quirk.
    • Melting_Harps 6y ago
      > Wearing sleep-depravation as a badge-of-honor seems like an American quirk. Not entirely an American thing, given the the common sight of a salaryman asleep on a train or cafe all over Japan. But given those 2 were the Largest Economies in the World for the last decades, and only recently JP was surpassed by CN in the middle of the last one, it makes sense. Having done it myself, I think its definitely an experience people should have in their Lifetime outside of University or raising a child it really makes you more empathetic towards other people in difficult situations later on in Life. We on HN may choose startup life for one reason or another, but I know left with a better understanding of the Human condition afterward and come to see that its worth encouraging people who want to strive at something and actually put the work in.
      • kyuudou 6y ago
        My guess is post-industrial economies require next-level abstraction which is more mentally demanding and hence requires better rest and nutrition. Back when "produce more stuff more efficiently!" was the mantra it was easier to focus on incremental gains. Now the answers aren't so easy.
        • Melting_Harps 6y ago
          > My guess is post-industrial economies require next-level abstraction which is more mentally demanding and hence requires better rest and nutrition. Back when "produce more stuff more efficiently!" was the mantra it was easier to focus on incremental gains. Now the answers aren't so easy. That's overstating the Work culture in either situation, in my opinion; in Japan its typical to have to stay only until the boss leaves, and the drinking culture that follows is mainly to curry favour with the higher-ups to climb the corporate latter. If that counts as 'abstraction' to you, I'm not sure what to make of your 'post industrial' POV. In the US corporate World, which is the only one I have any experience with, 'playing the game' is often more important than actual skill or merit. Which is why I despised my time within it. I'm not hired to be your drinking buddy or be a confidant, I'm a hired-gun for your project and only really there to offset my living expenses and bootstrap the more cool and interesting things I do in my Life. Making work be or seem anything other than 'work' requires a lot of de-compartmentalization for me and encumbering a person to a do so seems hardly 'abstract' to me and the more it becomes remote the better. That isn't to say I don't drink the Kool-aid for the things I'm passionate about, but that is hardly, if ever, found in the Corp World--this is pretty much how I left so disillusioned at IBM, despite being a Thinkpad fanboy.
• vikiomega9 6y ago
  Could you point me to some of these studies, ie. one that's a good starting reference.
  • collyw 6y ago
    I dont know any off hand but Mathew Walkers book "Why we sleep" talks about them. Apparently there are more road traffic accidents the day after the clocks change in spring when many people loose an hours sleep.
    • guzey 6y ago
      https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
      • rdgthree 6y ago
        Immensely frustrating how many people are citing his book in a thread about one of your own blog posts, of all places. I was so glad to see your post about it at the time, and this experiment is an interesting follow up. "Why We Sleep" is everything wrong with "science" today, and as a person who also isn't a huge fan of sleeping, I'm desperate to understand the real drawbacks to a lack of sleep. That dumpster fire of a book has set back honest research on the subject by years. Just venting, as I know you agree. Thanks again for your contributions to sanity.
        • guzey 6y ago
          Thanks!
      • collyw 6y ago
        It's kind of a long article, but I can't see anything in it that refutes the point about road accidents.
        • guzey 6y ago
          I did not look into his claims about road accidents but given that Walker misrepresents and so much of the research (and sometimes falsifies it) on sleep, I would not be willing to believe such claim simply based on him saying this in the book.
• snowwrestler 6y ago
  Yeah, I think I should have been more specific that I'm judging against the things I usually need to complete for work--which do not necessarily take my utmost brilliance. I haven't been rigorously tested on low sleep.
• dionidium 6y ago
  See also: "I'm better at pool after 3 beers." Yeah, no you're not.
  • hirsin 6y ago
    I dunno. I realize Balmer peak is a semi-joke, but I really enjoy bowling and used to go once a week or so with friends. Some days we'd get a pitcher of beer, some times we wouldn't. My third game is reliably better if we bought a pitcher. So who knows! Lots of confounding questions there. (three beers, though, my bowling probably gets much worse reliably)
    • filoleg 6y ago
      Better compared to other players at the moment or compared to your sober self? Because it could also just mean you handle alcohol better than friends you play with. Jokes aside, fully agreed. You just gotta get enough alcohol that your confidence and peacefulness are up (which would cause you to play better), but not to the point where negative effects of alcohol overpower the positive ones. And that's a tricky one to balance.
    • Frondo 6y ago
      There's a very funny Mitchell and Webb sketch on this very subject: https://youtu.be/-Zj50DmBFp0 https://youtu.be/-Zj50DmBFp0
  • e40 6y ago
    Actually, I accidentally found I am better at pool with like 3/4 of a beer. Something about being in that relaxed but pre-inebriated state.
  • wizzzzzy 6y ago
    I'm actually inclined to disagree here -- I think after a couple of beers it's reasonable to assume someone might be better at pool. Firstly you're both physically and mentally more relaxed and often more confident too so I think it's completely plauisble theres a couple of beers sweet spot for playing pool.
  • 6y ago
• serf 6y ago
  Why did you leave out the end of their quote about the metrics they use to judge their perception upon? "--as judged by things I build and people I interact with." I mean, I agree that sleep deprivation seems to induce temporary cognitive performance problems, but you're reinforcing a point that the parent seems to already understand -- that self perception is useless without objective performance metrics. Parent gave their opinion, reinforced by anecdotal evidence that they believe is an objective measure of their performance. Perhaps what should really be mentioned is that perhaps the metrics by which they are judging their cognitive performance are not as broad a test of those characteristics as one might believe.
• Dylan16807 6y ago
  I really don't like how you quoted half a sentence there in a way that gives a misleading sense of agreement.
• BatFastard 6y ago
  What I wonder is how it affects your average performance, sure it effects your peak performance, but how often do you really need peak?
• 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
  Reminds me of people I’ve encountered who think they’re better at X while on $DRUG. Almost for sure, in my experience with these people, it’s definitely not true, though they’re convinced of it. People driving while high are especially frustrating, because they’ve convinced themselves that there better drivers.
  • PakG1 6y ago
    People who think they're right when they're wrong are frustrating for anything. Try talking with conspiracy theorists about the science behind vaccines and COVID-19 these days? I have. I'm apparently a sheep that easily trusts the mainstream media and will probably be first in line to kill myself when vaccines become publicly available, only so that Bill Gates and Anthony Fauci can become richer.
  • laumars 6y ago
    It depends on the activity, individual, the drug and dosage. There isn’t a generalisation that can be made because there are so many variables. Take something that requires more mental focus but do not rely on reaction times, like pool, I definitely play better when I’ve been drinking as I get less distracted when going down on a shot and less anxious about my performance. And pool is a small enough table where the negative effects of drinking tend not to overcompensate (unlike snooker where more than 1 pint will hamper my game). For some activities it’s more about mental focus on that single activity where as driving is about multitasking and reactions. Qualities drugs tend to hamper rather then enhance.
• crooked-v 6y ago
  I discovered this for myself when I realized that while on 4 hours of sleep, I could power through stuff with the aid of enough caffeine and feel at least marginally productive... ...but I started leaving typos in everything. That really doesn't sound like much, right? Honestly, though, it genuinely freaked me out a little, existentially, the first time I noticed. I was one of those nerds who got to a state spelling bee as a kid, and I've always been a voracious reader. I've had spell-check turned off since forever because it would inevitably be the spell-check that was wrong about niche terms. But without enough sleep, all of that competence that I usually just take for granted vanishes. I end up with 'good moerning' and 'how are yoiu' and 'paass the salt', and I don't even notice I'm doing it until I look back at what I've written and double-take. And that's just with casual writing, probably one of the lowest-overhead mental tasks possible for many people. God only knows what kind of disaster would result from me trying to drive or operate heavy machinery in that state.
  • mjburgess 6y ago
    I've had a similar experience with artificially masking my energy levels. I stop reading what I've written and introducing a large number of typos; the grammar becomes weird; etc. This is why it's important to allow yourself to be exhausted and to notice exhaustion: your little mental model of yourself is incredibly inaccurate. You need to be constantly alert to keep it updated, and if you don't, you will collapse.
• bronco21016 6y ago
  Sleep deprivation and cognitive ability is studied pretty heavily in aviation. Most airlines have mechanisms for pilots to self report fatigue events, events where because of operational needs the crew ends up working extended hours. There comes a point in the day where the pilots are asked if they’re ok to continue. It’s amazing that often times in the reports, which are generally done a day later, the pilots will state that they probably shouldn’t have continued. However, in the moment where they made that decision, they didn’t feel all that tired. We ask the pilots to make a critical decision about themselves at precisely the time where they may not have the best judgment.
  • kyuudou 6y ago
    I did a flight safety training course and the video clips of people right before they pass out from anoxia are entertaining and educational. Here's one from the FAA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSrGfElyfVE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSrGfElyfVE