22 ms·

My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

697 points by blhack 16y ago

blhack 16y ago
Hey all, I submitted this this morning, but never anticipated getting this much traffic. I really appreciate all the comments :) If the site is slow to load, there is a static version of the page here: http://thingist.com/static/4372.html http://thingist.com/static/4372.html
tptacek 16y ago
The author's point is well taken. But: * Stop using comic sans * What are you, illiterate? * Tables? What is this, the 1990s? Ha ha ha!. * This design looks like myspace * You're using the default hashing algorithm in mysql instead of bcrypt? * God I hate the arduino. It's not real hacking. Which of these things is not like-the ooooother?
- Estragon 16y ago
  Sorry, your point is unclear to me.
- jdp23 16y ago
  the one with the lolcats?
- blhack 16y ago
  One of them offers a solution (use bcrypt). It's the delivery that matters.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    It's true, but it's also the case that that's the only non-subjective point in the list. You can zip it on things like Comic Sans and table layout, but you probably shouldn't hold your tongue on security flaws. I agree, delivery counts.
biturd 16y ago
Aged skateboarder here. Been a few years since I have even rode one. The nature of skateboarders is something that I am glad the blog author got a taste of. I seem to compare every "culture" that I get involved in to skateboarders. I don't think you will find the same camaraderie in many other places. It's very hard to explain. For something that is rather competitive, it is also very much a competition with yourself. Just the act of truly wanting to be a part of it will make you part of a family so to speak.
BoppreH 16y ago
I think there's two main problems here at play: excessive criticism and discouragement. I actually like the first one, and most hackers I know do too. I've seen geeks take (possibly harsh) critics very well, way better than "normal" people. Personally, I find it useful as a route to self-development, but it's certainly more frequent than in other places. About discouragement, I think the author is just visiting the wrong communities. Or maybe I've been really lucky all this time. Either way, I don't see evidences of this behavior being more common in our circles.
dools 16y ago
Yep, I agree entirely. Stop being such sanctimonious fuckwits.
- JoachimSchipper 16y ago
  If "fuckwit" adds anything to your comment, can you explain what that is?
  - dools 16y ago
    It's a noun I've used to attach the adjective sanctimonious to which adds more emphasis than the word "person" would have, and also confirms to the reader that I disapprove of a holier than thou attitude.
    - crux 16y ago
      To be honest, I thought you were being sarcastic. OP was all about how people ought to be less harsh, less judgmental, more open-minded, kinder and more welcoming. 'Fuckwit' might as well be the poster child for the culture of unquestioning, caustic certitude of which he disapproves.
      - dools 16y ago
        "'Fuckwit' might as well be the poster child for the culture of unquestioning, caustic certitude of which he disapproves" Hmm. You're right. In hindsight I definitely should have said fuckTARD.
  - mambodog 16y ago
    Irony?
  - gte910h 16y ago
    Are you the type of person who never expresses derision of something? Only using emotionally neutral words to describe anything? "fuckwit" is defined as someone hopelessly lost, so much so they deserve a heaping helping of scorn for being so. The use of "fuckwit" added something for me. The people are very lost with respect to the thing we have called society, playing nice, and determining the importance of the piece they're commenting on. They deserve scorn for being that way. To express this another way (and to not accidentally evoke pity for them), you have to say "So clueless as to require scorn" or something equally awkward. Or someone could call the fuckwits a fuckwit and be done with it, getting across a precise shade of meaning. From the Urban Dictionary: fuckwit A person who is not only lacking in clue but is apparently unable or unwilling to acquire clue even when handed it on a plate in generous portions.
cubtastic71 16y ago
It's nice to see someone stand up and say whoa. I mean my first youtube post of an arduino project I did - someone had to explain my miss-pronucenation of a word and paid no attention to the project itself. User comment boxes are not always as helpful as it might seem.
- blhack 16y ago
  This is exactly the problem, and this is exactly why a lot of nerds don't stand up and talk about what they're doing. They're under the impression that if they're not working at on of MIT's labs, then what they're doing is worthless. This is absolutely not the case. Some of the things that I've most enjoyed doing recently were a the "automated reddit observation system" (http://thingist.com/t/item/2945/ http://thingist.com/t/item/2945/) and my "Jarvis" alarm clock (http://thingist.com/t/item/4329/ http://thingist.com/t/item/4329/). These projects were both probably done "wrong". The way I'm parsing RSS on Jarvis is probably "wrong" and I was nervous about publishing the code because I thought people would call me out on it. But who cares. These things are hella fun. As one person said "Build shit. Do shit. Write Shit. Fuck the Haters. Let them know by the trail of Original Content you leave behind."
- ignifero 16y ago
  Bullies, anonymous smartasses. The internet brings out the teenager out of people of all ages, that's what makes it addictive and fun isn't it? It's not the real world, you are not forced to be a grey, conventional and kind person. There's this trend to kill anonymity on the internet, blogs switching to facebook comments etc. There's a value to anonymity, it facilitates criticism and that's what scientific journals have been doing for decades. It's also known that eponymous product reviews tend to be 20% more positive. The world is cruel, the world is pretentious. Take your pick (or don't)
  - pg 16y ago
    I think what makes the Internet fun is that it makes it easier to learn new things.
- jokermatt999 16y ago
ignifero 16y ago
still, i think hipsters are wannabes, and clothes don't make the man
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- jokermatt999 16y ago
  To further my attempt at inserting George Orwell's Politics and the English Language into every conversation, I think this quote applies. :-) The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. - George Orwell, Politics and the English Language (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm) I think "hipster" is generally one of those meaningless words in a lot of cases. Often times it's not pointing at what should truly be denouncing IMO (doing things for "irony", hating on popular things for no reason, being elitist, etc), but simply as a way of just generally denouncing people. "Oh you listen to bands I haven't heard of? You fucking hipster." as if there's no way the person in question truly likes that band regardless of their popularity. That's just an example from the cases where there's a specific objection other than "hipster". It's just become a popular nebulous term to hate on, and I've gotten tired of seeing it everywhere. I luckily rarely come across "hipsters" so I'm not too annoyed by them, but "hipster-haters" are constantly bitching about whatever "hipsters" do.
  - chrisrhoden 16y ago
    The anti-hipster culture is hilarious. It is impossible for me to read this without pointing out that after a very well-reasoned and largely accurate argument against the completely irrational spite, you close with a (admittedly small) taste of the very disgust you just denounced. "I luckily rarely come across 'hipsters'." It's pervasive, even in the group itself. Hipster doesn't actually mean anything specific to anyone, it simply means, "a member of the counterculture which I find offensive at the moment." And, shocker, the people who you would consider, "hipsters," are just as guilty of this. The problem with this, from my perspective, is that it's also a catch-all for people who are difficult to categorize. Even before the word was co-opted to be a generally negative term, it was nebulous at best, referring generally to young people who are interested in culture or art or food or music or, really, anything. As a result of this, people get lumped into this group based on these very general terms, and then assumptions are made about their character by regurgitating every complaint anyone has slapped the word "hipster" after, as though it's representative of everyone who wears sweaters. No, not everyone who has a moustache is an elitist. Not everyone who smoked pot in college loves Bob Marley, do they? I encourage people to stop using this word at all. It's just stupid, meaningless, and devoid of positive connotations for most of the world.
lhnz 16y ago
Agreed. Next time I shall condescendingly refer people to this post with one eyebrow raised if I hear any of those 'lines'.
- jergason 16y ago
  My sarcasm detector is beeping, but very faintly. If you are being serious, wouldn't it kindof defeat the purpose to be condescending towards people spouting that stuff?
jaysonelliot 16y ago
I would direct anyone who thinks geeks are harsh now to read chapter 10 of "Dealers of Lightning," about the early days of Xerox PARC. They had a weekly meeting called DEALER, where the boffins would present their ideas to the group at large. A quote: "But the argument had best be carefully thought out. Anyone trying to slip an unsound concept past this group was sure to be stopped short by an explosive "Bullshit!" from Thacker or "Nonsense!" from the beetle-browed ARPANET veteran Severo Ornstein. Then would follow a cascade of angry denunciations: "You don't know what you're talking about!" "That'll never work!" "That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard!" Lampson might add a warp-speed chapter-and-verse deconstruction of the speaker's sorry reasoning. If the chastened dealer was lucky (and still standing), the discussion might finally turn to how he might improve on his poor first effort."
- zach 16y ago
  Did they begin every sentence with "Silence!" as well?
  - jaysonelliot 16y ago
    Haha. Possibly.
- kstenerud 16y ago
  It's not that geeks are harsh; it's that assholes are harsh. You'd see the same kind of dressing down of a sales guy in front of his peers by his asshole boss, who just happens to be a damn good salesman, which makes his attacks all the more withering. Knowledge dost not the better man make.
agentultra 16y ago
It's true. I don't know how many times I've watched eager hackers get lambasted for "reinventing the wheel," or "don't bother doing it yourself, you'll just screw it up -- someone has probably done it already and did it better than you could." This happens most often at the intersection of technology and entrepreneurship. The business advice is that it's cheaper to buy it than build it. The engineer's perspective is that a square peg isn't going to fit in every hole. "Geeks," are harsh. I mean that in the very broad, general, and discriminatory sense. We have to work with bad code all day written by bad programmers. Some of us make a career out of saving businesses from bad technology decisions and poorly written programs (it is NOT good work, btw. Just pays well). So when yet another new-comer comes on board with bright, eager enthusiasm to revolutionize the Internet (yet again) we do tend to be rather cynical. I agree w/ the poster that the cynicism is a bad thing. We could be more constructive. Don't stop them from writing their own web server... show them where to look up the RFCs, reference implementations, etc. Encourage them to learn. We could all benefit from having more knowledgeable people around.
- dexen 16y ago
  There is reinventing the wheel and reinventing the wheel. It's cute when a person, learning as she goes, comes up with something that's been already invented. Only goes to show she understands the field. [1] It's unbelievably irritating when something that was widely implemented 10 or 20 or 30 years ago (and then even improved significantly) is now asserted as the next big thing. C'mon, be serious -_-' [2] [1] a nice guy thinks of swap (in userspace) just to hold strings of arbitrary length, calls it ``backed by file storage'': http://9fans.net/archive/2011/02/94 http://9fans.net/archive/2011/02/94 [2] no example I can think of ATM; but perhaps the above one could fit?
  - amalcon 16y ago
    For [2], I'd normally suggest the thin client... except that it's got enough momentum that it may actually be the next big thing.
    - dexen 16y ago
phamilton 16y ago
It's a little more advantageous to firmly establish your current language/style/concept as the standard than it is in skateboarding. The job market is all about hype. If RoR is the latest trend, a RoR programmer is better off. Same with Node.js. Same with HTML5 over flash. While I doubt people actually think "I'm going to tell you that your choice of language sucks because I want more work" I also doubt bullies on the playground think "I don't have a lot of self esteem, so I'm going to pick on kids smaller than me to make myself feel better". Some communities are more harsh than others. Ask a stupid question in #perl and compare the response with #python. The perl community is well established and isn't trying to evangelize. Python is (or was) less commonly used. They don't want to scare away new users because more python programmers means more support for the language. It's not an excuse, but it is a possible explanation.
- gte910h 16y ago
  I was just under the impression the python community has a long tradition of getting things done while being far from experts in the language, i.e., a far greater proportion of non-professional programmers who just use python to make one part of their real job go smoother. This leads to a very high tolerance of people new to the language, and to misunderstandings. Ruby and perl seem to have more typical professional programmer types is all.
ZeroMinx 16y ago
While I agree with this to some extent, I'd just like to comment on the the skateboarding analogy; You were probably taking it one step at a time, learning to stand on the board, increase your speed, make turns. Once you got all that done, you might move on to try some tricks, perhaps trying to learn the rock to fakie trick. What you _didn't_ do was, on your 2nd day, to scream out "why am I not sticking my 720 kickflip?!?!". The latter is fairly common in the world of programming, in my experience. (There's obviously also a big difference between being physically together with the people in a skatepark and sitting on the other end of an IRC session.)
- burgerbrain 16y ago
  I suspect the reason why hackers are harsh compared to skateboarders probably has something to do with the fact that when skateboarders fuck up, it tends to hurt. Bad hacking rarely carries such a strong disincentive, so we have to create one.
angelbob 16y ago
Thank you. I don't think this will do any good, but I'm still glad somebody is saying it loudly.
sqrt17 16y ago
There is a major difference between sports and programming: In sports, everyone is a critic, and it is really obvious if people cannot skateboard, or cannot throw a basketball. Compare with programming, where overt effect and actual competence are not always related. Criticizing programming and programmers is nontrivial, and hence people have to do it all the time to build up a shared understanding of good and bad practices. Looking at visual arts, you'll probably find a similar asymmetry between drawing (where it's difficult to get to even a barely mediocre level) and layout/typography (where it's easy to do something that looks "good" to the layman yet is totally horrible). Needless to say, there are more pages bashing bad layout and bad typography than there are sites dedicated to bashing bad drawings.
- wanderful 16y ago
  Except there is much more to a sport than, for example, shooting a basketball. There's offense, there's defense. There's fundamental skills, there's game strategy, there's different sorts of matchups. It goes on and on to subtler and more intricate detail. It's not simply whether one can skateboard or not, program or not, and it would seem that is what the author of the article was getting at. In your visual arts examples, there is a much simpler explanation. The reason there are more pages devoted toward layout principles is because the medium of expression (i.e. the web) fundamentally uses layout principles. Drawing doesn't express using the web. It's a selection effect, just as it's more likely that you will find soccer players in Brazil, and hockey players in Canada, rather than the other way around.
  - jhamburger 16y ago
    OK, but there are degrees of subtlety though. A casual fan might see someone score 40 points in a basketball game and say "wow, he must be a great player" while a hardcore fan might chime in and say "actually he's way overrated. He's a poor defender, way too selfish and lazy in rebounding." but the fact remains, if you score 40 points a game in basketball, you are at least a 'good' player at your level. I can say that categorically. Can we say "If you X, you must be a good programmer."?
PakG1 16y ago
I'm glad that HN is a place where people are normally really helpful to each other, but I see it even occasionally here. On the other hand, let's not take it too far. It's nice for people to have a little bit of backbone. They don't need to endure jackasses unnecessarily, but there are times when criticism is rightly required and backbone is rightly needed to respond well.
- gte910h 16y ago
  Yes, however the criticism the author is complaining about it not any criticism at all, it's about the low order, non substantive, non-topical type. Spolsky or PG wrote up a piece on this a bit back.
  - blhack 16y ago
    >Spolsky or PG wrote up a piece on this a bit back. I'd love to see it if you can remember the title...
    - gte910h 16y ago
      Found it: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
koko775 16y ago
My policy: be nice to people. Don't be nice to ideas. IMO, ideas need harsh critique, and it's not always easy or worth it to spend the extra time padding the conversation to soften your point - it can even be counterproductive. So while I won't say that someone is stupid or dumb for suggesting the idea, I may say an idea was not well thought out if it really isn't. I expect my peers to do the same, because we're not going to see which ideas stick if we bicker over how we iterate on them.
- drinian 16y ago
  The real problem seems to be people who can't separate themselves from the mistakes they make and take everything as an affront to their person. Receiving criticism means that your idea or work is at least worth considering.
  - phr 16y ago
    When receiving criticism, I should do as you say, and assume my mistakes are the target, not my (oh so sensitive) self. But when handing out criticism, I should assume the other person will take it personally. It's like that principal for Internet robustness: be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you accept.
usmanity 16y ago
I recently started working at a startup and before that my perception of criticism was what I saw on tv and heard from people. Fortunately, my coworks and seniors give me some good feedback. But I myself still can't have the patience to listen and learn, after reading this, I feel like there's an incentive for me to change my behavior :)
Limes102 16y ago
Meh. It isn't actually that important at the end of day. There are the geeks that help out and the geeks that criticise.
- nowarninglabel 16y ago
  It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
Jach 16y ago
http://lesswrong.com/lw/3h/why_our_kind_cant_cooperate/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/3h/why_our_kind_cant_cooperate/
joliss 16y ago
I don't think it's true in general that hackers (or geeks) "are jackasses to one another". Rather, it seems to depend a lot on the community. For example, I tend to work with Rails software, and the communities that I've encountered have (without exception!) been very friendly. Though pessimism aside, I think the post is spot-on with its argument!
stitchy 16y ago
I think that the issue of open hostility in online communities stems from Anonymity more than anything else. Most people are very conciliatory face to face. Honestly, I'd prefer something between open hostility and straight up pacification. I definitely want constructive criticism, which is why I tend to like Hacker News. The comments that I have seen here tend to be more constructive than other places on the intertubes.
- guelo 16y ago
  There is something about hiding behind machines that makes people treat each other much worse. I've noticed this in traffic jam situations, when everybody is hiding behind a couple tons of steel people are much more rude than, for example waiting in a human line, with everybody cutting each other off, flipping the finger, honking horns, etc. There's been a couple times where someone who has been rude on the road pulls up next to me at a stop and I wave, smile, say hello, and they act completely awkward and apparently ashamed.
Semiapies 16y ago
Ehn. There's a reason he rhetorically asks whether we're back in high school - this isn't just geek behavior. I've experienced this attitude from plenty of people who aren't at all geeky, and I've encountered some very nice geeks. Under certain sets of circumstances, people just tend to be dicks - and the internet contains many cases of those circumstances. http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/
edw519 16y ago
Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had a 3/3 split, what do you think would have happened if you had played the ace instead? Insecure public speaker: You look like an idiot playing with your hands like that. Excellent public speaker: You talked about a lot of cool things. I bet I would have been even more interested if I wasn't distracted so much by your hand gestures. Insecure parent: If you can't keep that baby quiet, you should just stay at home! Excellent parent: Here's something that has really worked well for me when my kids cried in public... Insecure programmer: How lame. I can't believe you <insert almost anything you could have done>. Excellent programmer: I see that works. I have found a few ways to make it work even better. Let me know what you think.
- thorax 16y ago
  I am insecure in every area you mention above, and I do everything in my power to approach advice exactly as you phrase it. Perhaps this is because I am insecure (all I know is that no one really knows everything), I choose to phrase things that way, often also seeing if they know something I didn't. I don't think there's as close a tie between condescension and insecurity-- but perhaps in some cases that happens. I'd rather people just never be condescending, regardless of what position they're coming from.
- knowtheory 16y ago
  Vociferous opposition is not the same as condescension, though. There are some people who care deeply about a subject and just lack social tact. They'll jump on you for a variety of subjects, but they don't have ill intent. Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with. It's the point at which one starts displaying schadenfreude and denigrating others that the line has been crossed.
  - AndrewDucker 16y ago
jgrahamc 16y ago
I don't like this generalization. I've met all sorts of geeks, nerds and hackers. Some are horrible to each other, some are very nice. I can't see that it's helpful to accuse all of us of being bastards. On the other hand, I have seen code that I found horribly upsetting and I'm sure I've expressed my opinion of it. I know that I have the patience of something with a very small amount of patience when I come across someone who just doesn't instantly get concepts (for this reason I cannot do family tech support) and I did make my college girlfriend (also doing computer science) cry once because I just rattled off an entire programming assignment without touching the computer (she switched courses). So, it really depends. If it was someone junior to me I'd cut them a lot of slack, if it was someone I considered my intellectual peer they'd need to roll with the punches.
michaelbuckbee 16y ago
Much of this isn't "geekdom" it's the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory in action: http://www.crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/shitcock.jpg http://www.crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/shitcoc... I've been to many BarCamps, local Ruby on Rails and Web design meetups and people are incredibly giving of their time, knowledge and patience. It is a profoundly different thing to meet someone in person, who is struggling with some technical issue, than to read about it (devoid of all context) on some wall of electronic text.
dkarl 16y ago
What would we think of an American who walked into an Egyptian coffeehouse or a Japanese board room and interpreted all the behavior he saw there as if he were seeing it in a church in Iowa? It's fine to demand that geeks develop some social sophistication, but it's also fine to expect that non-geeks will have enough social sophistication not to rush to judgment about behavior in an unfamiliar cultural context. Cultures vary from place to place, subgroup to subgroup, and there's no reason people shouldn't adapt to us if they want to join our subculture. That's the way it works. As other people have pointed out, the argumentative, ruthless nature of computing culture has very adaptive aspects because it mirrors the persistent, ruthless, and logical nature of the computers we deal with. Once you're used to dealing with computers -- once you've learned that computers don't compromise, but it isn't personal -- you perceive computer geek behavior differently. The only reason to enter the subculture, except as a tourist, is to learn about computing, so it is reasonable to assume that anybody arguing about how to program a microcontroller either gets us or is in the process of getting us. Obviously, different rules apply when geeks interact with non-geeks in other contexts. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When in Xerox PARC, or less exalted forums for discussing computing, do as the computer geeks do.
- kstenerud 16y ago
  There's a huge difference between "You're wrong and here's why", and "You did X??? What are you, stupid? You suck and you should just gtfo because you'll never amount to anything. You'd be so fired if you worked in my company. Bullet. Brain. Make the connection." Both are uncompromising. Only one is civil.
  - dkarl 16y ago
    I think people tend to hear the latter when geeks say the former, because non-geeks usually aren't so direct.
  - shaggyfrog 16y ago
    But both are personal. A better take would be "This solution/process/method is wrong and here's why". Make it about the issue, not the person.
Tycho 16y ago
The worst part is the practice of deliberately trying to make someone feel bad about themselves over a discussion about iPods or something. What sort of person does that? Thankfully I hardly ever see it on HN, but elsewhere it's rife.
- huertanix 16y ago
  You see it a lot between iOS and Android camps. I get flak from Android fanboys constantly and I don't even use an iPhone. If each system was so perfect, there wouldn't be a need for anyone to prove anything. We're pitted into camps of imperfect systems in which each side is perfectly aware of their side's flaws but avoid the geek-sin of admitting they use something less than perfect by only pointing out everything wrong with the "other side" rather than admitting that everything is broken and telling Google and Apple about it instead.
  - Tycho 16y ago
    I know one guy who used to actually reply saying, 'read what you just wrote, and feel bad about yourself.' One of the main problems though is that half the people on these forums are 10-18 year olds. I mean even Hacker News has a median age of only 25 (according to a recent poll), and it seems super-grown-up.
localhost3000 16y ago
i started learning to code in December/January. I've been pleasantly surprised by how helpful I've found people to be in places like #rubyonrails, #jquery, ... I come across a random jerk here or there, or just some snarky, passive-aggressive commentary from time to time from otherwise OK people. I find if I am nice, humble, and honest about my abilities/intentions, people are generally nice in response. Sarcasm has proven to be pretty successful on the web, which doesn't help your cause. How many successful blogs were built on a glib and critical tone? Being a jackass is an easy way to differentiate...I think this influences the general discourse on the web, especially among the savvy. That said, from what I remember, "web people" were far more ruthless 15 years ago.
dansingerman 16y ago
I disagree with this. The difference in the examples cited is not sports vs hackers, it's communication in real life vs over the interwebs. In my experience most hackers are perfectly pleasant in person, happy to help if asked, and not substantially different to how the article describes the skaters. Conversely, I bet if you look at some skater videos on youtube they would be full of sarcasm and piss-taking (well they would be if youtube comments weren't a massive fail in their own right) Geeks and nerds more frequently use online media to communicate, but I don't think they are otherwise more predisposed to antosocial behaviour than anyone else. As a datapoint, my wife uses babycentre a lot, and the disproportionate flamewars you get there are ridiculous. Put those mothers together in a room and I bet they'd be completely pleasant.
- Wolf_Larsen 16y ago
  I agree with you. One of the things to learn in life is who to listen to and who to ignore. I can align with the author - being around people who do not accept mistakes or shortcomings as part of a positive learning process is frustrating - but saying that "Geeks" do this too often and more than other circles is untrue. That idiot should just quit writing blog posts.
  - cullend 16y ago
    Not really. I hang out with homeless people, hippies, frat guys, and any group I can work my way into. Geeks ARE angry. They seem to have shittons of pentup rage
- blinks 16y ago
  Skaters are actually pretty cool guys, in general. First skate video I found on YT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAvGzCPa0TU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAvGzCPa0TU Sample comments: Asking for advice: > when you tre flip over something (gap, stairs or anything) does anyone else dangle their foot like this guy? Generic compliment: > damn, nice Complimenting form: > you land well clean kickflips Observation of differences: > it realy is true how europe has alot more amazing skate spots n obstacles than america, One troll: > u blow
- 16y ago
ddelphin 16y ago
Could not have said it better though I doubt things will change. I hope so though!
samlevine 16y ago
From my comment on the post on Thingist: >I don't think you can fight human nature, only work around it. Ignore the haters that don't get $x. Ignore the haters that think what you've made sucks, or doesn't do $x and is therefore useless. Build shit. Write about how to do shit. Let them know you by the trail of OC you leave behind.
donniefitz2 16y ago
I have to say, as a former sk8er (too old now), this is typical. Skateboarders have been social Switzerland for decades. Often un-critical of ones appearance and always deep into their sport, I'm not surprised by Steve's attitude.
skurland78704 16y ago
"...give people constructive criticisms. If their design is bad, tell them what they can do to improve it. If there code is bad, offer to help them patch it and make it better. If there spelling or grammar is off, just let it go." I perceive a profound inconsistency.
cydonian_monk 16y ago
Fascinating post. Coming from an Engineering background I'd like to echo what another commenter said - Ideas must be treated harshly. If it's a bad idea then it needs to be vetted and corrected, especially if it's likely to kill someone. You owe it to the honor of the profession to do so. But you have to attack the idea and not the person. When egos are involved that's not easy, because the person may view an attack on their idea as a personal attack. Just assume the person is as intelligent as you and had a good reason for their "bad" idea. Maybe you can build on it without completely discarding it. As for language, I've never understood the online "geek" community's tendancy to be grammar and spelling "nazis." There have been times where I've been the only native English speaker on a team, both professionally and in college. If we spent all of our time discussing Strunk and White we would have never finished what we were doing. Yet on the internet, where "exposure" to non-native speakers is commonplace, these practices seem to be the norm. Boggling. (It's one thing to be helpful, it's another to be petty. Petty strikes me as professionally immature.) In short: A crash-course in interpersonal communications would help everybody. Thanks for the blog post.
jhamburger 16y ago
If we were to generalize and put nerds into three broad categories- 1. Lower-case 'n' nerds for whom coding is as much of a day job as it possibly can be and lead rewarding and socially active lives away from their computers. 2. Nerds who are completely immersed in what they do because they find it to be rewarding in and of itself. 3. Nerds who are completely immersed in what they do because they aren't very good at anything else, and are bitter that being good at what they do isn't really socially rewarding. I think most of our problems come from group #3.
- georgieporgie 16y ago
  I think one and two overlap.
- forensic 16y ago
  1 and 2 sound like distinct personality types and 3 sounds like a neurotic person
marcos123 16y ago
Coming from the same situation as the OP, only reversed (grew up a skating every single day, got addicted to programming later on), I would like to contribute a little context to the OP's brush with skateboarding. Sure, I remember ollieing backpacks with my friends in the morning before school, when we had pretty much nothing but encouraging words for each other. But I also remember years later, being on tours/roadtrips with pro's and video deadlines and magazine articles. In those latter years, the cynicism and shit-talking that I'd witnessed (ok, and took part in) was unparalleled by any other sub-culture I've ever crossed paths with. Someone with a forced/contrived style of skating could be made to hate their own life after enduring little more than 2 min. of criticism from certain, fellow skateboarders. My interpretation of all this is that anytime you're doing something around the upper echelon of people that do that same thing you're doing, expect tests of your will, whether technical or emotional. I just think of it as human nature's way of weeding out the weaklings of any group. Personally, I'm quite fond of and entertained by the pretentiousness I receive on certain irc channels… brings me back to the days when and skate spots and chicks were literally my only cares in the world.
jedbrown 16y ago
As a related matter, harsh criticism sometimes makes it easier to distinguish good products/people from those that are not worth your time. I tend to appreciate the opinion of people who do not hold back criticism, certainly their praise is a lot more meaningful. Reading between the lines is not the most efficient way to discern quality.
sophacles 16y ago
I'm reminded of something a wise man once told me (HNified a bit): In every pairwise conversation there are 6 people: 1. Alice 2. Bob 3. Who Alice thinks she is. 4. Who Bob thinks he is. 5. Who Bob thinks Alice is 6. Who Alice things Bob is. Perception plays an absurdly large part in communication, as do nonverbal cues. Frequently we adjust our message based on feedback we get from the listener. Those lacking "social graces" or communicating in just text on the internet don't get these cues, so the message comes out "harsher". Complicating this, there is a lot of baggage each person attaches to words, phrases and general styles of questioning/commenting. So one person's harsh may be another's "in to it". One example of all this I have experienced: One time at a vendor show, me and some colleagues were in a small demo, presented by a sales guy and a few engineers from the company. During the Q&A, I started questioning the engineer pretty intensely with questions like: Does it do $X? Why not? Do you plan on adding it? (These are actually pretty neutral questions) Then about another aspect I was really into some possibilities of: Can I use it for $Y? Can I make $Y happen by this? What happens if I do $Z? How about if I work around that limitation like this and get $Y + $Z effectively? (these are not neutral questions, they are me geeking out) So after the demo some people thought I broke the engineer and ripped him a new one with the second set of questions, because I was rapid fire asking questions towards a goal. One engineer thought it was a fun "play with an idea time". The other engineer thought I was severely criticizing his work. The sales guy and several of the audience members thought I was being unduly harsh by asking about the feature $X. Apparently this was a contentious issue that I knew nothing about. The engineers and others thought nothing of those questions. Similarly: I frequently get frustrated when people wrap up valid criticism in fake nice BS. I don't want to hear "great thing, what if instead you did this". I really would rather just hear "What about this other method? Why not use that?" or even "Dude, 10s of googling would have shown you the flaws in that". Because an honest self assessment includes the fact that I don't know everything, and that many (most) of the things I come up with have also been thought of by other people, who may have found flaws in that reasoning. I guess my point is there is a lot more than just "nerds are mean to each other" going on.
- andywood 16y ago
  The enumeration at the top of your comment is the best thing I've read yet today. Douglas Hofstadter expands on similar ideas in I Am a Strange Loop.
csomar 16y ago
That happens everywhere; however, the author is comparing two different places: The Internet and a skate-park. He just find a good place and also people don't tell strangers and guests "you are an idiots" in your face. On the Internet, it's different. That applies to a skateboard forum, just search and you'll find out! End of the story: Work on improving yourself and forget about what sh*t the others say.
saidulislam 16y ago
all of you guys missed the big one... RTFM!
lyudmil 16y ago
I agree with the author's observation. Geek culture is incredibly unforgiving, and proudly so. To some extent this might be just a part of hacker tradition, but I think there's a deeper problem - it isn't always easy to tell who the authority on a subject is in a random group discussing a highly technical issue. Let's take the sports analogy the author used. It is immediately clear who is more apt at skateboarding and thus should be doling out advice. The power relation is clear and accepted on both sides, which allows for constructive instruction to take place. Discussing things on HN, however is different. In general, technical discussions amongst people who don't generally know each other are a process of discovering the appropriate power relation. We are exchanging comments and trying to gauge who is more knowledgeable. If I were to try to teach someone before they've acknowledged I have something to teach them, I'll come across as arrogant and an unpleasant argument will likely begin. I'm not sure what the answer is. Sometimes I'd like to see more humility in the communities we're referring to here, but I also don't want to read insecure, watered-down opinion. It would be the best of all worlds if people stated their case as strongly as possible, confident that everyone knows they're aware of the possibility or even overwhelming probability they're wrong. I think that would eliminate a lot of the pain and noise in discussions on forums such as this.
Trufa 16y ago
Made me remember this: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/9953/could-we-please-be-a-bit-nicer-to-the-noobs http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/9953/could-we-please...
Trufa 16y ago
Made me remember this: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/9953/could-we-please-be-a-bit-nicer-to-the-noobs http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/9953/could-we-please...
jgroome 16y ago
The old stereotype of the socially awkward nerd is just as true now as it ever was. The points the author brings up are classic signs of lack of ability to articulate in a social context. It's not a popular thing to say but programming and hacking is, at the end of the day, a mostly solitary endeavour. Why would someone who spends most of their time stuck in their own head know how to converse about technical matters, especially when it's online and behind a wall of anonymity? I'm not saying all geeks are antisocial. I'm saying that the kind of person who would call another an idiot over a minor disagreement isn't demonstrating a lack of confidence but rather an inability to communicate in a friendly way.
alvarosm 16y ago
But Arduino fanboys really deserve it :P
rbarooah 16y ago
What the poster misses is that many people don't come to online forums for just polite intelligent discussion. You might as well tell football fans to be quiet so everyone can concentrate on the game better. Is he comparing online forums with in-person experiences? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y&feature=youtu...
peterwwillis 16y ago
Everyone (in the world) should just be less critical and stop thinking their shit doesn't smell. But as far as hipsters are concerned, I won't ever respect someone who trades their individuality for conformity.
dctoedt 16y ago
Getting in the habit of kindly offering constructive criticism will pay off big-time when and if you raise kids -- at least if you want them to like you when they're adults.
lloeki 16y ago
This seems like someone just discovered that once you consider a large enough group of people, a bunch of them happen to be narrow-minded people thinking they know The Truth and feel they have a Mission to teach Gospel. The best thing to do is to actually ignore them lest one risks engaging into void arguments. Once you learn to get over the empty side of the Internet you discover that you can also find a bunch of open-minded, constructive people (of which hackers are - by the idealistic definition - a subset). Trains can be late and one can be quite vocal about that, but few talk about those that are actually on time. Also, http://xkcd.com/386/ http://xkcd.com/386/
ilovecomputers 16y ago
That's it, I'm admitting it. "Tom, no, not among the hall of nerds." No, it's the best time. Everyone, I have an announcement to make! I...am kind of like a hipster. reveals fedora hat and threadless shirt <<My word! They do exist!>> No longer will I be prosecuted for enjoying a cultural product that is making it's first appearance in the cultural scene. I also speak for every newbie who dislikes dealing with the console and I speak for every newbie who doesn't posses the skills of a sysadmin, but wants to understand their way around unix. I also speak for every CS major who thinks caustic arguments, over which programming language sucks, are a waste of time. And yes, I am currently learning Haskell, not because it is underground but because I enjoy recursively declaring functions. Now who here will help me understand side effects?
NathanKP 16y ago
If there spelling or grammar is off, just let it go. I'm not sure if we are being trolled here or whether it was an actual mistake.
haberman 16y ago
I've had lots of moments where I let bitterness get the best of me, and started flaming. Upon reflection, I think I understand why. As programmers, we are part of a giant ecosystem of software. What one programmer does affects another, even for two people who don't directly work together. This is unlike (say) sports. If there are other skateboarders who have terrible form, it doesn't affect me. On the other hand, if a large number of people make what I perceive to be a bad engineering decision, like using SOAP (SOAP's safe to hate on these days, right?), that affects me because I'll have to write software that interfaces with their systems that use a terrible protocol. And if I see a person arguing in favor of a terrible idea like SOAP, I perceive that they are not only using SOAP themselves, but encouraging others to do so also -- if they succeed my life gets even harder. If other people seem to be agreeing that it's a good idea, instead of recognizing it for the insanity that it is, the frustration grows. And if the person is arguing in a self-righteous way, that makes it seem justified to be snippy back. It's probably not the most healthy reaction, but there you have it. This is what led me to post rants in the past like: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=446030&cid=22346032 http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=446030&ci...
bane 16y ago
In most cases, there's a social normative function that teaches people that this kind of behavior doesn't work. Are you an asshole in real life? People won't deal with you and you'll find yourself shut out of many social opportunities. People tend to learn to stop being assholes real quick when everybody else gets an office birthday party and they don't. The problem with life on the Internet is that this social normative function doesn't work. Are you an asshole that nobody will talk to? No problem! Just invite yourself to the office parties and start running your mouth! Admin lock out your account from your favorite forum because of flame wars? No problem! There's a million other forums you can head to and be a complete jerk in! There are exceptions, HN for example is fairly unique in terms of the social environment it provides, and flaming out here can have consequences, hence people tend to behave a bit better here in order to maintain their social status in the group. However, in addition to behavior and tone, down arrows represent a kind of social normative function that includes semantics that might push people towards a kind of consensus in group think (flags usually deal with purely bad behavior). The problem is that it's very hard on HN to have a dissenting opinion without getting knocked down a few points. If want to keep socializing here, you either conform or get out.
grishick 16y ago
Partially responsible for the situation is the fact that many (if not most) of us (nerdy geeks) are to some extend autistic, or rather "aspergerish". Go read about Asperger Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome) and tell me that you don't recognize your own traits. Not only we enjoy being abrupt and critical, but we are also better fit for being around people who are like us and so we don't mind it as much as other people do. That said, it wouldn't hurt to learn some human interaction skills.
xentronium 16y ago
While I generally agree with the statement, my personal experience says that hardcore drilling is the most effective way of teaching sometimes.
edanm 16y ago
I'm happy to point out one thing: this is less true on Hacker News. More broadly, this is less true in the "Startup Scene". Even though a lot of us come from an engineering background, I've always seen people get great feedback, helpful and not condescending at all. This is even more true for people's "Review my startup" posts, which usually present a pretty early beta, but tend to get great responses.
deleted 16y ago
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etherael 16y ago
Damn straight, all intolerant people should be taken out and shot.
Dylanlacey 16y ago
Honestly, I'm on the other side of the fence. I've found that good programming shops are a bit offensive and a bit agro when discussing code, and it leaks playfully out into regular relations. It needs to be offensive, but not about the person themselves (like all good criticism) "What? This sorting code is slower the a walrus walking uphill" "Dude, your lunch STINKS, are you cooking a month-dead skunk?" "That's retarded. It won't work. At all. Ever." Sure, they sound a bit harsh, but they're not actually offensive because you KNOW they're not about you, or are only peripherally about your judgment, and it's an unavoidable fact that some people have terrible judgment. The shops I've worked in with quiet, softly given feedback have been those that aren't doing anything interesting, are moving slowly and don't really have any great developers, or even better then average ones. In my mind there's a definite correlation between boisterous shops and great ones.
wturner 16y ago
I really enjoyed this post, and skateboarding has been one of my greatest teachers in life (which probably isn't saying much). I do believe in Machiavellian criticism, but progressive Machiavellian criticism with the intend of doing whatever you're focused on better.Not for the sake of the critic feeding their own ego, although the two can mutually interact. :)
coreyhaines 16y ago
This is a great idea. A bunch of us in the software craftsmanship community engaged in what we called "Positivember" last fall in a similar vein: http://programmingtour.blogspot.com/2010/11/positivember.html http://programmingtour.blogspot.com/2010/11/positivember.htm...
toephu 16y ago
its human nature
toephu 16y ago
it's human nature, by finding faults in others it makes yourself feel more superior. plus it's always easier to hate than love.
jhuni 16y ago
I hate haters.
squasher 16y ago
I see a lot of threads go by on HN along the lines of "why aren't there more women in technology?" and then lots of replies along the lines of "I guess they are just allergic to keyboards. Too bad!" This article, particularly the section about attitude towards noobs, is all tied up in why some women never go deep into programming. There are lots of other reasons too, but this one is especially well articulated by the OP. If you are in the keyboard-allergist camp, ponder this one long and hard.

697 points by blhack 16y ago

Hey all, I submitted this this morning, but never anticipated getting this much traffic. I really appreciate all the comments :) If the site is slow to load, there is a static version of the page here: http://thingist.com/static/4372.html http://thingist.com/static/4372.html

tptacek 16y ago

The author's point is well taken. But: * Stop using comic sans * What are you, illiterate? * Tables? What is this, the 1990s? Ha ha ha!. * This design looks like myspace * You're using the default hashing algorithm in mysql instead of bcrypt? * God I hate the arduino. It's not real hacking. Which of these things is not like-the ooooother?

Estragon 16y ago
Sorry, your point is unclear to me.
jdp23 16y ago
the one with the lolcats?
blhack 16y ago
One of them offers a solution (use bcrypt). It's the delivery that matters.
- tptacek 16y ago
  It's true, but it's also the case that that's the only non-subjective point in the list. You can zip it on things like Comic Sans and table layout, but you probably shouldn't hold your tongue on security flaws. I agree, delivery counts.

biturd 16y ago

Aged skateboarder here. Been a few years since I have even rode one. The nature of skateboarders is something that I am glad the blog author got a taste of. I seem to compare every "culture" that I get involved in to skateboarders. I don't think you will find the same camaraderie in many other places. It's very hard to explain. For something that is rather competitive, it is also very much a competition with yourself. Just the act of truly wanting to be a part of it will make you part of a family so to speak.

BoppreH 16y ago

I think there's two main problems here at play: excessive criticism and discouragement. I actually like the first one, and most hackers I know do too. I've seen geeks take (possibly harsh) critics very well, way better than "normal" people. Personally, I find it useful as a route to self-development, but it's certainly more frequent than in other places. About discouragement, I think the author is just visiting the wrong communities. Or maybe I've been really lucky all this time. Either way, I don't see evidences of this behavior being more common in our circles.

dools 16y ago

Yep, I agree entirely. Stop being such sanctimonious fuckwits.

JoachimSchipper 16y ago
If "fuckwit" adds anything to your comment, can you explain what that is?
- dools 16y ago
  It's a noun I've used to attach the adjective sanctimonious to which adds more emphasis than the word "person" would have, and also confirms to the reader that I disapprove of a holier than thou attitude.
  - crux 16y ago
    To be honest, I thought you were being sarcastic. OP was all about how people ought to be less harsh, less judgmental, more open-minded, kinder and more welcoming. 'Fuckwit' might as well be the poster child for the culture of unquestioning, caustic certitude of which he disapproves.
    - dools 16y ago
      "'Fuckwit' might as well be the poster child for the culture of unquestioning, caustic certitude of which he disapproves" Hmm. You're right. In hindsight I definitely should have said fuckTARD.
- mambodog 16y ago
  Irony?
- gte910h 16y ago
  Are you the type of person who never expresses derision of something? Only using emotionally neutral words to describe anything? "fuckwit" is defined as someone hopelessly lost, so much so they deserve a heaping helping of scorn for being so. The use of "fuckwit" added something for me. The people are very lost with respect to the thing we have called society, playing nice, and determining the importance of the piece they're commenting on. They deserve scorn for being that way. To express this another way (and to not accidentally evoke pity for them), you have to say "So clueless as to require scorn" or something equally awkward. Or someone could call the fuckwits a fuckwit and be done with it, getting across a precise shade of meaning. From the Urban Dictionary: fuckwit A person who is not only lacking in clue but is apparently unable or unwilling to acquire clue even when handed it on a plate in generous portions.

cubtastic71 16y ago

It's nice to see someone stand up and say whoa. I mean my first youtube post of an arduino project I did - someone had to explain my miss-pronucenation of a word and paid no attention to the project itself. User comment boxes are not always as helpful as it might seem.

blhack 16y ago
This is exactly the problem, and this is exactly why a lot of nerds don't stand up and talk about what they're doing. They're under the impression that if they're not working at on of MIT's labs, then what they're doing is worthless. This is absolutely not the case. Some of the things that I've most enjoyed doing recently were a the "automated reddit observation system" (http://thingist.com/t/item/2945/ http://thingist.com/t/item/2945/) and my "Jarvis" alarm clock (http://thingist.com/t/item/4329/ http://thingist.com/t/item/4329/). These projects were both probably done "wrong". The way I'm parsing RSS on Jarvis is probably "wrong" and I was nervous about publishing the code because I thought people would call me out on it. But who cares. These things are hella fun. As one person said "Build shit. Do shit. Write Shit. Fuck the Haters. Let them know by the trail of Original Content you leave behind."
ignifero 16y ago
Bullies, anonymous smartasses. The internet brings out the teenager out of people of all ages, that's what makes it addictive and fun isn't it? It's not the real world, you are not forced to be a grey, conventional and kind person. There's this trend to kill anonymity on the internet, blogs switching to facebook comments etc. There's a value to anonymity, it facilitates criticism and that's what scientific journals have been doing for decades. It's also known that eponymous product reviews tend to be 20% more positive. The world is cruel, the world is pretentious. Take your pick (or don't)
- pg 16y ago
  I think what makes the Internet fun is that it makes it easier to learn new things.
jokermatt999 16y ago

ignifero 16y ago

still, i think hipsters are wannabes, and clothes don't make the man

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
jokermatt999 16y ago
To further my attempt at inserting George Orwell's Politics and the English Language into every conversation, I think this quote applies. :-) The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. - George Orwell, Politics and the English Language (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm) I think "hipster" is generally one of those meaningless words in a lot of cases. Often times it's not pointing at what should truly be denouncing IMO (doing things for "irony", hating on popular things for no reason, being elitist, etc), but simply as a way of just generally denouncing people. "Oh you listen to bands I haven't heard of? You fucking hipster." as if there's no way the person in question truly likes that band regardless of their popularity. That's just an example from the cases where there's a specific objection other than "hipster". It's just become a popular nebulous term to hate on, and I've gotten tired of seeing it everywhere. I luckily rarely come across "hipsters" so I'm not too annoyed by them, but "hipster-haters" are constantly bitching about whatever "hipsters" do.
- chrisrhoden 16y ago
  The anti-hipster culture is hilarious. It is impossible for me to read this without pointing out that after a very well-reasoned and largely accurate argument against the completely irrational spite, you close with a (admittedly small) taste of the very disgust you just denounced. "I luckily rarely come across 'hipsters'." It's pervasive, even in the group itself. Hipster doesn't actually mean anything specific to anyone, it simply means, "a member of the counterculture which I find offensive at the moment." And, shocker, the people who you would consider, "hipsters," are just as guilty of this. The problem with this, from my perspective, is that it's also a catch-all for people who are difficult to categorize. Even before the word was co-opted to be a generally negative term, it was nebulous at best, referring generally to young people who are interested in culture or art or food or music or, really, anything. As a result of this, people get lumped into this group based on these very general terms, and then assumptions are made about their character by regurgitating every complaint anyone has slapped the word "hipster" after, as though it's representative of everyone who wears sweaters. No, not everyone who has a moustache is an elitist. Not everyone who smoked pot in college loves Bob Marley, do they? I encourage people to stop using this word at all. It's just stupid, meaningless, and devoid of positive connotations for most of the world.

lhnz 16y ago

Agreed. Next time I shall condescendingly refer people to this post with one eyebrow raised if I hear any of those 'lines'.

jergason 16y ago
My sarcasm detector is beeping, but very faintly. If you are being serious, wouldn't it kindof defeat the purpose to be condescending towards people spouting that stuff?

jaysonelliot 16y ago

I would direct anyone who thinks geeks are harsh now to read chapter 10 of "Dealers of Lightning," about the early days of Xerox PARC. They had a weekly meeting called DEALER, where the boffins would present their ideas to the group at large. A quote: "But the argument had best be carefully thought out. Anyone trying to slip an unsound concept past this group was sure to be stopped short by an explosive "Bullshit!" from Thacker or "Nonsense!" from the beetle-browed ARPANET veteran Severo Ornstein. Then would follow a cascade of angry denunciations: "You don't know what you're talking about!" "That'll never work!" "That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard!" Lampson might add a warp-speed chapter-and-verse deconstruction of the speaker's sorry reasoning. If the chastened dealer was lucky (and still standing), the discussion might finally turn to how he might improve on his poor first effort."

zach 16y ago
Did they begin every sentence with "Silence!" as well?
- jaysonelliot 16y ago
  Haha. Possibly.
kstenerud 16y ago
It's not that geeks are harsh; it's that assholes are harsh. You'd see the same kind of dressing down of a sales guy in front of his peers by his asshole boss, who just happens to be a damn good salesman, which makes his attacks all the more withering. Knowledge dost not the better man make.

agentultra 16y ago

It's true. I don't know how many times I've watched eager hackers get lambasted for "reinventing the wheel," or "don't bother doing it yourself, you'll just screw it up -- someone has probably done it already and did it better than you could." This happens most often at the intersection of technology and entrepreneurship. The business advice is that it's cheaper to buy it than build it. The engineer's perspective is that a square peg isn't going to fit in every hole. "Geeks," are harsh. I mean that in the very broad, general, and discriminatory sense. We have to work with bad code all day written by bad programmers. Some of us make a career out of saving businesses from bad technology decisions and poorly written programs (it is NOT good work, btw. Just pays well). So when yet another new-comer comes on board with bright, eager enthusiasm to revolutionize the Internet (yet again) we do tend to be rather cynical. I agree w/ the poster that the cynicism is a bad thing. We could be more constructive. Don't stop them from writing their own web server... show them where to look up the RFCs, reference implementations, etc. Encourage them to learn. We could all benefit from having more knowledgeable people around.

dexen 16y ago
There is reinventing the wheel and reinventing the wheel. It's cute when a person, learning as she goes, comes up with something that's been already invented. Only goes to show she understands the field. [1] It's unbelievably irritating when something that was widely implemented 10 or 20 or 30 years ago (and then even improved significantly) is now asserted as the next big thing. C'mon, be serious -_-' [2] [1] a nice guy thinks of swap (in userspace) just to hold strings of arbitrary length, calls it ``backed by file storage'': http://9fans.net/archive/2011/02/94 http://9fans.net/archive/2011/02/94 [2] no example I can think of ATM; but perhaps the above one could fit?
- amalcon 16y ago
  For [2], I'd normally suggest the thin client... except that it's got enough momentum that it may actually be the next big thing.
  - dexen 16y ago

phamilton 16y ago

It's a little more advantageous to firmly establish your current language/style/concept as the standard than it is in skateboarding. The job market is all about hype. If RoR is the latest trend, a RoR programmer is better off. Same with Node.js. Same with HTML5 over flash. While I doubt people actually think "I'm going to tell you that your choice of language sucks because I want more work" I also doubt bullies on the playground think "I don't have a lot of self esteem, so I'm going to pick on kids smaller than me to make myself feel better". Some communities are more harsh than others. Ask a stupid question in #perl and compare the response with #python. The perl community is well established and isn't trying to evangelize. Python is (or was) less commonly used. They don't want to scare away new users because more python programmers means more support for the language. It's not an excuse, but it is a possible explanation.

gte910h 16y ago
I was just under the impression the python community has a long tradition of getting things done while being far from experts in the language, i.e., a far greater proportion of non-professional programmers who just use python to make one part of their real job go smoother. This leads to a very high tolerance of people new to the language, and to misunderstandings. Ruby and perl seem to have more typical professional programmer types is all.

ZeroMinx 16y ago

While I agree with this to some extent, I'd just like to comment on the the skateboarding analogy; You were probably taking it one step at a time, learning to stand on the board, increase your speed, make turns. Once you got all that done, you might move on to try some tricks, perhaps trying to learn the rock to fakie trick. What you _didn't_ do was, on your 2nd day, to scream out "why am I not sticking my 720 kickflip?!?!". The latter is fairly common in the world of programming, in my experience. (There's obviously also a big difference between being physically together with the people in a skatepark and sitting on the other end of an IRC session.)

burgerbrain 16y ago
I suspect the reason why hackers are harsh compared to skateboarders probably has something to do with the fact that when skateboarders fuck up, it tends to hurt. Bad hacking rarely carries such a strong disincentive, so we have to create one.

angelbob 16y ago

Thank you. I don't think this will do any good, but I'm still glad somebody is saying it loudly.

sqrt17 16y ago

There is a major difference between sports and programming: In sports, everyone is a critic, and it is really obvious if people cannot skateboard, or cannot throw a basketball. Compare with programming, where overt effect and actual competence are not always related. Criticizing programming and programmers is nontrivial, and hence people have to do it all the time to build up a shared understanding of good and bad practices. Looking at visual arts, you'll probably find a similar asymmetry between drawing (where it's difficult to get to even a barely mediocre level) and layout/typography (where it's easy to do something that looks "good" to the layman yet is totally horrible). Needless to say, there are more pages bashing bad layout and bad typography than there are sites dedicated to bashing bad drawings.

wanderful 16y ago
Except there is much more to a sport than, for example, shooting a basketball. There's offense, there's defense. There's fundamental skills, there's game strategy, there's different sorts of matchups. It goes on and on to subtler and more intricate detail. It's not simply whether one can skateboard or not, program or not, and it would seem that is what the author of the article was getting at. In your visual arts examples, there is a much simpler explanation. The reason there are more pages devoted toward layout principles is because the medium of expression (i.e. the web) fundamentally uses layout principles. Drawing doesn't express using the web. It's a selection effect, just as it's more likely that you will find soccer players in Brazil, and hockey players in Canada, rather than the other way around.
- jhamburger 16y ago
  OK, but there are degrees of subtlety though. A casual fan might see someone score 40 points in a basketball game and say "wow, he must be a great player" while a hardcore fan might chime in and say "actually he's way overrated. He's a poor defender, way too selfish and lazy in rebounding." but the fact remains, if you score 40 points a game in basketball, you are at least a 'good' player at your level. I can say that categorically. Can we say "If you X, you must be a good programmer."?

PakG1 16y ago

I'm glad that HN is a place where people are normally really helpful to each other, but I see it even occasionally here. On the other hand, let's not take it too far. It's nice for people to have a little bit of backbone. They don't need to endure jackasses unnecessarily, but there are times when criticism is rightly required and backbone is rightly needed to respond well.

gte910h 16y ago
Yes, however the criticism the author is complaining about it not any criticism at all, it's about the low order, non substantive, non-topical type. Spolsky or PG wrote up a piece on this a bit back.
- blhack 16y ago
  >Spolsky or PG wrote up a piece on this a bit back. I'd love to see it if you can remember the title...
  - gte910h 16y ago
    Found it: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

koko775 16y ago

My policy: be nice to people. Don't be nice to ideas. IMO, ideas need harsh critique, and it's not always easy or worth it to spend the extra time padding the conversation to soften your point - it can even be counterproductive. So while I won't say that someone is stupid or dumb for suggesting the idea, I may say an idea was not well thought out if it really isn't. I expect my peers to do the same, because we're not going to see which ideas stick if we bicker over how we iterate on them.

drinian 16y ago
The real problem seems to be people who can't separate themselves from the mistakes they make and take everything as an affront to their person. Receiving criticism means that your idea or work is at least worth considering.
- phr 16y ago
  When receiving criticism, I should do as you say, and assume my mistakes are the target, not my (oh so sensitive) self. But when handing out criticism, I should assume the other person will take it personally. It's like that principal for Internet robustness: be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you accept.

usmanity 16y ago

I recently started working at a startup and before that my perception of criticism was what I saw on tv and heard from people. Fortunately, my coworks and seniors give me some good feedback. But I myself still can't have the patience to listen and learn, after reading this, I feel like there's an incentive for me to change my behavior :)

Limes102 16y ago

Meh. It isn't actually that important at the end of day. There are the geeks that help out and the geeks that criticise.

nowarninglabel 16y ago
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

Jach 16y ago

http://lesswrong.com/lw/3h/why_our_kind_cant_cooperate/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/3h/why_our_kind_cant_cooperate/

joliss 16y ago

I don't think it's true in general that hackers (or geeks) "are jackasses to one another". Rather, it seems to depend a lot on the community. For example, I tend to work with Rails software, and the communities that I've encountered have (without exception!) been very friendly. Though pessimism aside, I think the post is spot-on with its argument!

stitchy 16y ago

I think that the issue of open hostility in online communities stems from Anonymity more than anything else. Most people are very conciliatory face to face. Honestly, I'd prefer something between open hostility and straight up pacification. I definitely want constructive criticism, which is why I tend to like Hacker News. The comments that I have seen here tend to be more constructive than other places on the intertubes.

guelo 16y ago
There is something about hiding behind machines that makes people treat each other much worse. I've noticed this in traffic jam situations, when everybody is hiding behind a couple tons of steel people are much more rude than, for example waiting in a human line, with everybody cutting each other off, flipping the finger, honking horns, etc. There's been a couple times where someone who has been rude on the road pulls up next to me at a stop and I wave, smile, say hello, and they act completely awkward and apparently ashamed.

Semiapies 16y ago

Ehn. There's a reason he rhetorically asks whether we're back in high school - this isn't just geek behavior. I've experienced this attitude from plenty of people who aren't at all geeky, and I've encountered some very nice geeks. Under certain sets of circumstances, people just tend to be dicks - and the internet contains many cases of those circumstances. http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/

edw519 16y ago

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had a 3/3 split, what do you think would have happened if you had played the ace instead? Insecure public speaker: You look like an idiot playing with your hands like that. Excellent public speaker: You talked about a lot of cool things. I bet I would have been even more interested if I wasn't distracted so much by your hand gestures. Insecure parent: If you can't keep that baby quiet, you should just stay at home! Excellent parent: Here's something that has really worked well for me when my kids cried in public... Insecure programmer: How lame. I can't believe you <insert almost anything you could have done>. Excellent programmer: I see that works. I have found a few ways to make it work even better. Let me know what you think.

thorax 16y ago
I am insecure in every area you mention above, and I do everything in my power to approach advice exactly as you phrase it. Perhaps this is because I am insecure (all I know is that no one really knows everything), I choose to phrase things that way, often also seeing if they know something I didn't. I don't think there's as close a tie between condescension and insecurity-- but perhaps in some cases that happens. I'd rather people just never be condescending, regardless of what position they're coming from.
knowtheory 16y ago
Vociferous opposition is not the same as condescension, though. There are some people who care deeply about a subject and just lack social tact. They'll jump on you for a variety of subjects, but they don't have ill intent. Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with. It's the point at which one starts displaying schadenfreude and denigrating others that the line has been crossed.
- AndrewDucker 16y ago

jgrahamc 16y ago

I don't like this generalization. I've met all sorts of geeks, nerds and hackers. Some are horrible to each other, some are very nice. I can't see that it's helpful to accuse all of us of being bastards. On the other hand, I have seen code that I found horribly upsetting and I'm sure I've expressed my opinion of it. I know that I have the patience of something with a very small amount of patience when I come across someone who just doesn't instantly get concepts (for this reason I cannot do family tech support) and I did make my college girlfriend (also doing computer science) cry once because I just rattled off an entire programming assignment without touching the computer (she switched courses). So, it really depends. If it was someone junior to me I'd cut them a lot of slack, if it was someone I considered my intellectual peer they'd need to roll with the punches.

michaelbuckbee 16y ago

Much of this isn't "geekdom" it's the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory in action: http://www.crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/shitcock.jpg http://www.crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/shitcoc... I've been to many BarCamps, local Ruby on Rails and Web design meetups and people are incredibly giving of their time, knowledge and patience. It is a profoundly different thing to meet someone in person, who is struggling with some technical issue, than to read about it (devoid of all context) on some wall of electronic text.

dkarl 16y ago

What would we think of an American who walked into an Egyptian coffeehouse or a Japanese board room and interpreted all the behavior he saw there as if he were seeing it in a church in Iowa? It's fine to demand that geeks develop some social sophistication, but it's also fine to expect that non-geeks will have enough social sophistication not to rush to judgment about behavior in an unfamiliar cultural context. Cultures vary from place to place, subgroup to subgroup, and there's no reason people shouldn't adapt to us if they want to join our subculture. That's the way it works. As other people have pointed out, the argumentative, ruthless nature of computing culture has very adaptive aspects because it mirrors the persistent, ruthless, and logical nature of the computers we deal with. Once you're used to dealing with computers -- once you've learned that computers don't compromise, but it isn't personal -- you perceive computer geek behavior differently. The only reason to enter the subculture, except as a tourist, is to learn about computing, so it is reasonable to assume that anybody arguing about how to program a microcontroller either gets us or is in the process of getting us. Obviously, different rules apply when geeks interact with non-geeks in other contexts. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When in Xerox PARC, or less exalted forums for discussing computing, do as the computer geeks do.

kstenerud 16y ago
There's a huge difference between "You're wrong and here's why", and "You did X??? What are you, stupid? You suck and you should just gtfo because you'll never amount to anything. You'd be so fired if you worked in my company. Bullet. Brain. Make the connection." Both are uncompromising. Only one is civil.
- dkarl 16y ago
  I think people tend to hear the latter when geeks say the former, because non-geeks usually aren't so direct.
- shaggyfrog 16y ago
  But both are personal. A better take would be "This solution/process/method is wrong and here's why". Make it about the issue, not the person.

Tycho 16y ago

The worst part is the practice of deliberately trying to make someone feel bad about themselves over a discussion about iPods or something. What sort of person does that? Thankfully I hardly ever see it on HN, but elsewhere it's rife.

huertanix 16y ago
You see it a lot between iOS and Android camps. I get flak from Android fanboys constantly and I don't even use an iPhone. If each system was so perfect, there wouldn't be a need for anyone to prove anything. We're pitted into camps of imperfect systems in which each side is perfectly aware of their side's flaws but avoid the geek-sin of admitting they use something less than perfect by only pointing out everything wrong with the "other side" rather than admitting that everything is broken and telling Google and Apple about it instead.
- Tycho 16y ago
  I know one guy who used to actually reply saying, 'read what you just wrote, and feel bad about yourself.' One of the main problems though is that half the people on these forums are 10-18 year olds. I mean even Hacker News has a median age of only 25 (according to a recent poll), and it seems super-grown-up.

localhost3000 16y ago

i started learning to code in December/January. I've been pleasantly surprised by how helpful I've found people to be in places like #rubyonrails, #jquery, ... I come across a random jerk here or there, or just some snarky, passive-aggressive commentary from time to time from otherwise OK people. I find if I am nice, humble, and honest about my abilities/intentions, people are generally nice in response. Sarcasm has proven to be pretty successful on the web, which doesn't help your cause. How many successful blogs were built on a glib and critical tone? Being a jackass is an easy way to differentiate...I think this influences the general discourse on the web, especially among the savvy. That said, from what I remember, "web people" were far more ruthless 15 years ago.

dansingerman 16y ago

I disagree with this. The difference in the examples cited is not sports vs hackers, it's communication in real life vs over the interwebs. In my experience most hackers are perfectly pleasant in person, happy to help if asked, and not substantially different to how the article describes the skaters. Conversely, I bet if you look at some skater videos on youtube they would be full of sarcasm and piss-taking (well they would be if youtube comments weren't a massive fail in their own right) Geeks and nerds more frequently use online media to communicate, but I don't think they are otherwise more predisposed to antosocial behaviour than anyone else. As a datapoint, my wife uses babycentre a lot, and the disproportionate flamewars you get there are ridiculous. Put those mothers together in a room and I bet they'd be completely pleasant.

Wolf_Larsen 16y ago
I agree with you. One of the things to learn in life is who to listen to and who to ignore. I can align with the author - being around people who do not accept mistakes or shortcomings as part of a positive learning process is frustrating - but saying that "Geeks" do this too often and more than other circles is untrue. That idiot should just quit writing blog posts.
- cullend 16y ago
  Not really. I hang out with homeless people, hippies, frat guys, and any group I can work my way into. Geeks ARE angry. They seem to have shittons of pentup rage
blinks 16y ago
Skaters are actually pretty cool guys, in general. First skate video I found on YT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAvGzCPa0TU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAvGzCPa0TU Sample comments: Asking for advice: > when you tre flip over something (gap, stairs or anything) does anyone else dangle their foot like this guy? Generic compliment: > damn, nice Complimenting form: > you land well clean kickflips Observation of differences: > it realy is true how europe has alot more amazing skate spots n obstacles than america, One troll: > u blow
16y ago

ddelphin 16y ago

Could not have said it better though I doubt things will change. I hope so though!

samlevine 16y ago

From my comment on the post on Thingist: >I don't think you can fight human nature, only work around it. Ignore the haters that don't get $x. Ignore the haters that think what you've made sucks, or doesn't do $x and is therefore useless. Build shit. Write about how to do shit. Let them know you by the trail of OC you leave behind.

donniefitz2 16y ago

I have to say, as a former sk8er (too old now), this is typical. Skateboarders have been social Switzerland for decades. Often un-critical of ones appearance and always deep into their sport, I'm not surprised by Steve's attitude.

skurland78704 16y ago

"...give people constructive criticisms. If their design is bad, tell them what they can do to improve it. If there code is bad, offer to help them patch it and make it better. If there spelling or grammar is off, just let it go." I perceive a profound inconsistency.

cydonian_monk 16y ago

Fascinating post. Coming from an Engineering background I'd like to echo what another commenter said - Ideas must be treated harshly. If it's a bad idea then it needs to be vetted and corrected, especially if it's likely to kill someone. You owe it to the honor of the profession to do so. But you have to attack the idea and not the person. When egos are involved that's not easy, because the person may view an attack on their idea as a personal attack. Just assume the person is as intelligent as you and had a good reason for their "bad" idea. Maybe you can build on it without completely discarding it. As for language, I've never understood the online "geek" community's tendancy to be grammar and spelling "nazis." There have been times where I've been the only native English speaker on a team, both professionally and in college. If we spent all of our time discussing Strunk and White we would have never finished what we were doing. Yet on the internet, where "exposure" to non-native speakers is commonplace, these practices seem to be the norm. Boggling. (It's one thing to be helpful, it's another to be petty. Petty strikes me as professionally immature.) In short: A crash-course in interpersonal communications would help everybody. Thanks for the blog post.

jhamburger 16y ago

If we were to generalize and put nerds into three broad categories- 1. Lower-case 'n' nerds for whom coding is as much of a day job as it possibly can be and lead rewarding and socially active lives away from their computers. 2. Nerds who are completely immersed in what they do because they find it to be rewarding in and of itself. 3. Nerds who are completely immersed in what they do because they aren't very good at anything else, and are bitter that being good at what they do isn't really socially rewarding. I think most of our problems come from group #3.

georgieporgie 16y ago
I think one and two overlap.
forensic 16y ago
1 and 2 sound like distinct personality types and 3 sounds like a neurotic person

marcos123 16y ago

Coming from the same situation as the OP, only reversed (grew up a skating every single day, got addicted to programming later on), I would like to contribute a little context to the OP's brush with skateboarding. Sure, I remember ollieing backpacks with my friends in the morning before school, when we had pretty much nothing but encouraging words for each other. But I also remember years later, being on tours/roadtrips with pro's and video deadlines and magazine articles. In those latter years, the cynicism and shit-talking that I'd witnessed (ok, and took part in) was unparalleled by any other sub-culture I've ever crossed paths with. Someone with a forced/contrived style of skating could be made to hate their own life after enduring little more than 2 min. of criticism from certain, fellow skateboarders. My interpretation of all this is that anytime you're doing something around the upper echelon of people that do that same thing you're doing, expect tests of your will, whether technical or emotional. I just think of it as human nature's way of weeding out the weaklings of any group. Personally, I'm quite fond of and entertained by the pretentiousness I receive on certain irc channels… brings me back to the days when and skate spots and chicks were literally my only cares in the world.

jedbrown 16y ago

As a related matter, harsh criticism sometimes makes it easier to distinguish good products/people from those that are not worth your time. I tend to appreciate the opinion of people who do not hold back criticism, certainly their praise is a lot more meaningful. Reading between the lines is not the most efficient way to discern quality.

sophacles 16y ago

I'm reminded of something a wise man once told me (HNified a bit): In every pairwise conversation there are 6 people: 1. Alice 2. Bob 3. Who Alice thinks she is. 4. Who Bob thinks he is. 5. Who Bob thinks Alice is 6. Who Alice things Bob is. Perception plays an absurdly large part in communication, as do nonverbal cues. Frequently we adjust our message based on feedback we get from the listener. Those lacking "social graces" or communicating in just text on the internet don't get these cues, so the message comes out "harsher". Complicating this, there is a lot of baggage each person attaches to words, phrases and general styles of questioning/commenting. So one person's harsh may be another's "in to it". One example of all this I have experienced: One time at a vendor show, me and some colleagues were in a small demo, presented by a sales guy and a few engineers from the company. During the Q&A, I started questioning the engineer pretty intensely with questions like: Does it do $X? Why not? Do you plan on adding it? (These are actually pretty neutral questions) Then about another aspect I was really into some possibilities of: Can I use it for $Y? Can I make $Y happen by this? What happens if I do $Z? How about if I work around that limitation like this and get $Y + $Z effectively? (these are not neutral questions, they are me geeking out) So after the demo some people thought I broke the engineer and ripped him a new one with the second set of questions, because I was rapid fire asking questions towards a goal. One engineer thought it was a fun "play with an idea time". The other engineer thought I was severely criticizing his work. The sales guy and several of the audience members thought I was being unduly harsh by asking about the feature $X. Apparently this was a contentious issue that I knew nothing about. The engineers and others thought nothing of those questions. Similarly: I frequently get frustrated when people wrap up valid criticism in fake nice BS. I don't want to hear "great thing, what if instead you did this". I really would rather just hear "What about this other method? Why not use that?" or even "Dude, 10s of googling would have shown you the flaws in that". Because an honest self assessment includes the fact that I don't know everything, and that many (most) of the things I come up with have also been thought of by other people, who may have found flaws in that reasoning. I guess my point is there is a lot more than just "nerds are mean to each other" going on.

andywood 16y ago
The enumeration at the top of your comment is the best thing I've read yet today. Douglas Hofstadter expands on similar ideas in I Am a Strange Loop.

csomar 16y ago

That happens everywhere; however, the author is comparing two different places: The Internet and a skate-park. He just find a good place and also people don't tell strangers and guests "you are an idiots" in your face. On the Internet, it's different. That applies to a skateboard forum, just search and you'll find out! End of the story: Work on improving yourself and forget about what sh*t the others say.

saidulislam 16y ago

all of you guys missed the big one... RTFM!

lyudmil 16y ago

I agree with the author's observation. Geek culture is incredibly unforgiving, and proudly so. To some extent this might be just a part of hacker tradition, but I think there's a deeper problem - it isn't always easy to tell who the authority on a subject is in a random group discussing a highly technical issue. Let's take the sports analogy the author used. It is immediately clear who is more apt at skateboarding and thus should be doling out advice. The power relation is clear and accepted on both sides, which allows for constructive instruction to take place. Discussing things on HN, however is different. In general, technical discussions amongst people who don't generally know each other are a process of discovering the appropriate power relation. We are exchanging comments and trying to gauge who is more knowledgeable. If I were to try to teach someone before they've acknowledged I have something to teach them, I'll come across as arrogant and an unpleasant argument will likely begin. I'm not sure what the answer is. Sometimes I'd like to see more humility in the communities we're referring to here, but I also don't want to read insecure, watered-down opinion. It would be the best of all worlds if people stated their case as strongly as possible, confident that everyone knows they're aware of the possibility or even overwhelming probability they're wrong. I think that would eliminate a lot of the pain and noise in discussions on forums such as this.

Trufa 16y ago

Made me remember this: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/9953/could-we-please-be-a-bit-nicer-to-the-noobs http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/9953/could-we-please...

Trufa 16y ago

Made me remember this: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/9953/could-we-please-be-a-bit-nicer-to-the-noobs http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/9953/could-we-please...

jgroome 16y ago

The old stereotype of the socially awkward nerd is just as true now as it ever was. The points the author brings up are classic signs of lack of ability to articulate in a social context. It's not a popular thing to say but programming and hacking is, at the end of the day, a mostly solitary endeavour. Why would someone who spends most of their time stuck in their own head know how to converse about technical matters, especially when it's online and behind a wall of anonymity? I'm not saying all geeks are antisocial. I'm saying that the kind of person who would call another an idiot over a minor disagreement isn't demonstrating a lack of confidence but rather an inability to communicate in a friendly way.

alvarosm 16y ago

But Arduino fanboys really deserve it :P

rbarooah 16y ago

What the poster misses is that many people don't come to online forums for just polite intelligent discussion. You might as well tell football fans to be quiet so everyone can concentrate on the game better. Is he comparing online forums with in-person experiences? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y&feature=youtu...

peterwwillis 16y ago

Everyone (in the world) should just be less critical and stop thinking their shit doesn't smell. But as far as hipsters are concerned, I won't ever respect someone who trades their individuality for conformity.

dctoedt 16y ago

Getting in the habit of kindly offering constructive criticism will pay off big-time when and if you raise kids -- at least if you want them to like you when they're adults.

lloeki 16y ago

This seems like someone just discovered that once you consider a large enough group of people, a bunch of them happen to be narrow-minded people thinking they know The Truth and feel they have a Mission to teach Gospel. The best thing to do is to actually ignore them lest one risks engaging into void arguments. Once you learn to get over the empty side of the Internet you discover that you can also find a bunch of open-minded, constructive people (of which hackers are - by the idealistic definition - a subset). Trains can be late and one can be quite vocal about that, but few talk about those that are actually on time. Also, http://xkcd.com/386/ http://xkcd.com/386/

ilovecomputers 16y ago

That's it, I'm admitting it. "Tom, no, not among the hall of nerds." No, it's the best time. Everyone, I have an announcement to make! I...am kind of like a hipster. reveals fedora hat and threadless shirt <<My word! They do exist!>> No longer will I be prosecuted for enjoying a cultural product that is making it's first appearance in the cultural scene. I also speak for every newbie who dislikes dealing with the console and I speak for every newbie who doesn't posses the skills of a sysadmin, but wants to understand their way around unix. I also speak for every CS major who thinks caustic arguments, over which programming language sucks, are a waste of time. And yes, I am currently learning Haskell, not because it is underground but because I enjoy recursively declaring functions. Now who here will help me understand side effects?

NathanKP 16y ago

If there spelling or grammar is off, just let it go. I'm not sure if we are being trolled here or whether it was an actual mistake.

haberman 16y ago

I've had lots of moments where I let bitterness get the best of me, and started flaming. Upon reflection, I think I understand why. As programmers, we are part of a giant ecosystem of software. What one programmer does affects another, even for two people who don't directly work together. This is unlike (say) sports. If there are other skateboarders who have terrible form, it doesn't affect me. On the other hand, if a large number of people make what I perceive to be a bad engineering decision, like using SOAP (SOAP's safe to hate on these days, right?), that affects me because I'll have to write software that interfaces with their systems that use a terrible protocol. And if I see a person arguing in favor of a terrible idea like SOAP, I perceive that they are not only using SOAP themselves, but encouraging others to do so also -- if they succeed my life gets even harder. If other people seem to be agreeing that it's a good idea, instead of recognizing it for the insanity that it is, the frustration grows. And if the person is arguing in a self-righteous way, that makes it seem justified to be snippy back. It's probably not the most healthy reaction, but there you have it. This is what led me to post rants in the past like: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=446030&cid=22346032 http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=446030&ci...

bane 16y ago

In most cases, there's a social normative function that teaches people that this kind of behavior doesn't work. Are you an asshole in real life? People won't deal with you and you'll find yourself shut out of many social opportunities. People tend to learn to stop being assholes real quick when everybody else gets an office birthday party and they don't. The problem with life on the Internet is that this social normative function doesn't work. Are you an asshole that nobody will talk to? No problem! Just invite yourself to the office parties and start running your mouth! Admin lock out your account from your favorite forum because of flame wars? No problem! There's a million other forums you can head to and be a complete jerk in! There are exceptions, HN for example is fairly unique in terms of the social environment it provides, and flaming out here can have consequences, hence people tend to behave a bit better here in order to maintain their social status in the group. However, in addition to behavior and tone, down arrows represent a kind of social normative function that includes semantics that might push people towards a kind of consensus in group think (flags usually deal with purely bad behavior). The problem is that it's very hard on HN to have a dissenting opinion without getting knocked down a few points. If want to keep socializing here, you either conform or get out.

grishick 16y ago

Partially responsible for the situation is the fact that many (if not most) of us (nerdy geeks) are to some extend autistic, or rather "aspergerish". Go read about Asperger Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome) and tell me that you don't recognize your own traits. Not only we enjoy being abrupt and critical, but we are also better fit for being around people who are like us and so we don't mind it as much as other people do. That said, it wouldn't hurt to learn some human interaction skills.

xentronium 16y ago

While I generally agree with the statement, my personal experience says that hardcore drilling is the most effective way of teaching sometimes.

edanm 16y ago

I'm happy to point out one thing: this is less true on Hacker News. More broadly, this is less true in the "Startup Scene". Even though a lot of us come from an engineering background, I've always seen people get great feedback, helpful and not condescending at all. This is even more true for people's "Review my startup" posts, which usually present a pretty early beta, but tend to get great responses.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

etherael 16y ago

Damn straight, all intolerant people should be taken out and shot.

Dylanlacey 16y ago

Honestly, I'm on the other side of the fence. I've found that good programming shops are a bit offensive and a bit agro when discussing code, and it leaks playfully out into regular relations. It needs to be offensive, but not about the person themselves (like all good criticism) "What? This sorting code is slower the a walrus walking uphill" "Dude, your lunch STINKS, are you cooking a month-dead skunk?" "That's retarded. It won't work. At all. Ever." Sure, they sound a bit harsh, but they're not actually offensive because you KNOW they're not about you, or are only peripherally about your judgment, and it's an unavoidable fact that some people have terrible judgment. The shops I've worked in with quiet, softly given feedback have been those that aren't doing anything interesting, are moving slowly and don't really have any great developers, or even better then average ones. In my mind there's a definite correlation between boisterous shops and great ones.

wturner 16y ago

I really enjoyed this post, and skateboarding has been one of my greatest teachers in life (which probably isn't saying much). I do believe in Machiavellian criticism, but progressive Machiavellian criticism with the intend of doing whatever you're focused on better.Not for the sake of the critic feeding their own ego, although the two can mutually interact. :)

coreyhaines 16y ago

This is a great idea. A bunch of us in the software craftsmanship community engaged in what we called "Positivember" last fall in a similar vein: http://programmingtour.blogspot.com/2010/11/positivember.html http://programmingtour.blogspot.com/2010/11/positivember.htm...

toephu 16y ago

its human nature

toephu 16y ago

it's human nature, by finding faults in others it makes yourself feel more superior. plus it's always easier to hate than love.

jhuni 16y ago

I hate haters.

squasher 16y ago

I see a lot of threads go by on HN along the lines of "why aren't there more women in technology?" and then lots of replies along the lines of "I guess they are just allergic to keyboards. Too bad!" This article, particularly the section about attitude towards noobs, is all tied up in why some women never go deep into programming. There are lots of other reasons too, but this one is especially well articulated by the OP. If you are in the keyboard-allergist camp, ponder this one long and hard.