10 ms·

When I go many days in a row without enough sleep, I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline--

When I go many days in a row without enough sleep, I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline--as judged by things I build and people I interact with. But, my endurance of focus (the amount of time for which I can perform at a high level) does suffer. The weird thing is that it doesn't feel like I can't keep going... it's just that I sort of somehow don't keep going. I find my mind wandering more easily, checking in on social media more, and then time passing more quickly when I do. I'm more likely to look up from Twitter or HN and be surprised at the time. In short I don't seem to be any dumber while doing something, but number of things I get done in a typical time periods declines. As I have come to understand this impact, it has given me greater empathy for addicts. My brain doesn't feel like a tired muscle, or like I'm doing anything wrong in the moment. It's only later, when I look back, that I realize I was making bad decisions and losing time. It has just reinforced how hard it is to use decision-making to recover from a situation where the brain has already been compromised by bad decisions.

kstrauser 6y ago
I came here to say this. I can still get stuff done and answer questions, but I have the attention span of a goldfish.
fegu 6y ago
I came here to say this as well. Me exactly.
oh-4-fucks-sake 6y ago
I think that's what other recent psychological/neurological research has found too (citation needed--but do remember reading about it recently from multiple sources). It figures that everyone each has their individual baseline "propensity to stay focused"--and sleep deprivation degrades someone's focus below that. You take a normal person and sleep deprive them, and their "propensity to stay focused" is lowered, but still might fall within an acceptable/functional range. One theory that's gaining traction is that people with ADHD have a somewhat lower baseline than average, and when you throw in sleep deprivation, their "propensity to focus" falls into dysfunctional territory. Ergo, ADHD might have a large sleep component. In all cases (which corroborates with your experiences), they found that people are really poor at actively self-detecting those fluctuations.
- Roritharr 6y ago
  Oh god, this explains so many things. My wife is suffering ten times worse from the maternity related sleep deprivation than what other moms report. I'll talk to her about more active sleep management.
- jkhdigital 6y ago
  > Ergo, ADHD might have a large sleep component. Yeah, I can count on one hand the number of times in my life when I woke up in the morning, even after a good night of sleep, and felt "refreshed". I didn't even know what that meant until I had a conversation with a coworker who just hops out of bed and is "on" immediately. Feels like there is a connection with my ADHD diagnosis.
  - balfirevic 6y ago
    Did you manage to improve it, feeling refreshed after waking up?
  - hnick 6y ago
    Happens to me roughly once per year, twice in a good year. Usually I am too busy enjoying the novelty of it to put it to good use getting things done.
  - crooked-v 6y ago
    Try one of those wake-up lights if you can. Bright light in the morning can really help with waking up smoothly, or at least getting you into a relaxed half-awake state that makes an alarm less jarring. Anecdotal source: Having a (tiny but well-angled) skylight does wonders for me in the summer months.
  - mjburgess 6y ago
    A fitbit has been lifechanging for me on that front. Get one, and ruthelessly focus on improving your sleep. I have three layers of blinds (get portable blackout blinds); I use earplugs; I try to keep the room temp low. My mood, ability to think clearly, happiness etc. is very sensitive to my moving-average quality of sleep. I think a week or two of "fair" (fitbits levels) sleep is a catastrophe for me -- I need a high average.
hashmal 6y ago
> I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline It's very common. Studies on sleep deprivation report that subjects do not feel their cognitive abilities decline. However, measuring cognition using objective tests does show a significant decrease in these abilities.
- hawkice 6y ago
  This is by far the most important thing for HN to learn about this. The default level of self deception on this front is enormous.
  - conistonwater 6y ago
    I don't think it's quite the same as self-deception. The way I understood it is that it's more like alcohol: the first thing to go is your ability to judge for yourself whether your judgment is impaired.
    - kweinber 6y ago
      It is fair to say that using your cognition to measure your own cognitive decline is unreliable ;-)
  - wayoutthere 6y ago
    I think the other part to remember is that the author of the article is 22. I didn't need sleep either when I was his age. I don't mean he's naive, just that a 22-year-old can abuse their body without too many negative consequences. As someone in my late 30s, I definitely feel it when I only get 4 hours of sleep.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      That was my first thought as well (I"m in my late 30s too). When I was in college I could pull several all-nighters in a row without feeling too bad, or get 5-6 hours a sleep a night nearly indefinitely without too much trouble. Nowadays... not so much.
sailfast 6y ago
May be more of the same but I find my filter also declines substantially, so I basically turn into a colossal pain in the rear to deal with. Longer-fused patience or optimistic thinking becomes short fuse rage and negativity. There is no bandwidth to deal with multiple things at once or compartment, and no bandwidth to ingest any signal except the thing in front of you in your mindset. Not a place I’d recommend if you can avoid it.
Roritharr 6y ago
Your last point really resonated with me. I've seen a very good friend crash his entire life by a string of bad decisions that led to him being constantly under pressure and burned out. Ironically the use of some strong nootropics helped him cut the corner and work himself in a saner situation from which he could use to start coming back on his feet.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kbenson 6y ago
> The weird thing is that it doesn't feel like I can't keep going... it's just that I sort of somehow don't keep going. I find my mind wandering more easily That's exactly what I experience if I have a few too many days where my sleep is interrupted or I sleep badly. I already give myself very little leeway there, where I usually have about 5.5 to 6.5 hours before I need to wake up (I fall asleep very quickly), so it's a fairly good gauge of time). If something wakes me earlier than expected, it affects me the next day. I find that coffee makes this harder to determine, as I'll still feel alert that next day, just as if I had better sleep, but I'll be less productive overall in all the ways you mentioned. I can still think coherently, but I appear to be able to do so about the same thing for a much shorter period before being distracted with something else. > As I have come to understand this impact, it has given me greater empathy for addicts. My brain doesn't feel like a tired muscle, or like I'm doing anything wrong in the moment. That's a very astute observation. I've noticed before that more sleep makes me more productive, yet there's always that allure to staying up a bit later and reading a little bit more in the book I'm reading (which is almost always the problem), or watching a little bit more, etc. Like an addiction (I assume), the path from non-problematic behavior to problematic behavior is somewhat gradual, and noticing the problem is somewhat impaired by the negative effects of the problem itself. I don't set out to sleep very little, it just gradually gets worse where I'm skimping on sleep more and more often, until it's fairly consistent, and then I eventually notice and break out of it. Then the cycle repeats, but I generally spend far more time with little sleep than adequate sleep overall.
testnew2 6y ago
I’ve been under sleeping and I play a lot of games. Poker, go, call of duty war zone. My performance in all of them suffers. I actually don’t allow myself to play poker anymore unless I have two nights of full rest.
asdff 6y ago
That's early phase sleep deprivation for me. Distinct from late phase, where I'll forget a sentence the second I hear the next one. Just completely shot short term memory until I find time to sleep for 10 hours, sometimes a few days later. Comes around the day after a deadline.
Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
> The weird thing is that it doesn't feel like I can't keep going... it's just that I sort of somehow don't keep going Sounds a lot like an unfalsifiable hypothesis. Which means it can simply be a question of your perception of a phenomenon, not an objective truth of it.
aerique 6y ago
I have experienced something similar after I've been ill. For example, day 1 and 2 I'm just doing my work and don't feel ill yet, then day 3 I get ill and have to stay home from work. Afterwards I notice that my work from day 1 and 2 is way below average and can more or less be discarded, while I did not notice this at the time.

kstrauser 6y ago

I came here to say this. I can still get stuff done and answer questions, but I have the attention span of a goldfish.

fegu 6y ago

I came here to say this as well. Me exactly.

oh-4-fucks-sake 6y ago

I think that's what other recent psychological/neurological research has found too (citation needed--but do remember reading about it recently from multiple sources). It figures that everyone each has their individual baseline "propensity to stay focused"--and sleep deprivation degrades someone's focus below that. You take a normal person and sleep deprive them, and their "propensity to stay focused" is lowered, but still might fall within an acceptable/functional range. One theory that's gaining traction is that people with ADHD have a somewhat lower baseline than average, and when you throw in sleep deprivation, their "propensity to focus" falls into dysfunctional territory. Ergo, ADHD might have a large sleep component. In all cases (which corroborates with your experiences), they found that people are really poor at actively self-detecting those fluctuations.

Roritharr 6y ago
Oh god, this explains so many things. My wife is suffering ten times worse from the maternity related sleep deprivation than what other moms report. I'll talk to her about more active sleep management.
jkhdigital 6y ago
> Ergo, ADHD might have a large sleep component. Yeah, I can count on one hand the number of times in my life when I woke up in the morning, even after a good night of sleep, and felt "refreshed". I didn't even know what that meant until I had a conversation with a coworker who just hops out of bed and is "on" immediately. Feels like there is a connection with my ADHD diagnosis.
- balfirevic 6y ago
  Did you manage to improve it, feeling refreshed after waking up?
- hnick 6y ago
  Happens to me roughly once per year, twice in a good year. Usually I am too busy enjoying the novelty of it to put it to good use getting things done.
- crooked-v 6y ago
  Try one of those wake-up lights if you can. Bright light in the morning can really help with waking up smoothly, or at least getting you into a relaxed half-awake state that makes an alarm less jarring. Anecdotal source: Having a (tiny but well-angled) skylight does wonders for me in the summer months.
- mjburgess 6y ago
  A fitbit has been lifechanging for me on that front. Get one, and ruthelessly focus on improving your sleep. I have three layers of blinds (get portable blackout blinds); I use earplugs; I try to keep the room temp low. My mood, ability to think clearly, happiness etc. is very sensitive to my moving-average quality of sleep. I think a week or two of "fair" (fitbits levels) sleep is a catastrophe for me -- I need a high average.

hashmal 6y ago

> I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline It's very common. Studies on sleep deprivation report that subjects do not feel their cognitive abilities decline. However, measuring cognition using objective tests does show a significant decrease in these abilities.

hawkice 6y ago
This is by far the most important thing for HN to learn about this. The default level of self deception on this front is enormous.
- conistonwater 6y ago
  I don't think it's quite the same as self-deception. The way I understood it is that it's more like alcohol: the first thing to go is your ability to judge for yourself whether your judgment is impaired.
  - kweinber 6y ago
    It is fair to say that using your cognition to measure your own cognitive decline is unreliable ;-)
- wayoutthere 6y ago
  I think the other part to remember is that the author of the article is 22. I didn't need sleep either when I was his age. I don't mean he's naive, just that a 22-year-old can abuse their body without too many negative consequences. As someone in my late 30s, I definitely feel it when I only get 4 hours of sleep.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    That was my first thought as well (I"m in my late 30s too). When I was in college I could pull several all-nighters in a row without feeling too bad, or get 5-6 hours a sleep a night nearly indefinitely without too much trouble. Nowadays... not so much.

sailfast 6y ago

May be more of the same but I find my filter also declines substantially, so I basically turn into a colossal pain in the rear to deal with. Longer-fused patience or optimistic thinking becomes short fuse rage and negativity. There is no bandwidth to deal with multiple things at once or compartment, and no bandwidth to ingest any signal except the thing in front of you in your mindset. Not a place I’d recommend if you can avoid it.

Roritharr 6y ago

Your last point really resonated with me. I've seen a very good friend crash his entire life by a string of bad decisions that led to him being constantly under pressure and burned out. Ironically the use of some strong nootropics helped him cut the corner and work himself in a saner situation from which he could use to start coming back on his feet.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

kbenson 6y ago

> The weird thing is that it doesn't feel like I can't keep going... it's just that I sort of somehow don't keep going. I find my mind wandering more easily That's exactly what I experience if I have a few too many days where my sleep is interrupted or I sleep badly. I already give myself very little leeway there, where I usually have about 5.5 to 6.5 hours before I need to wake up (I fall asleep very quickly), so it's a fairly good gauge of time). If something wakes me earlier than expected, it affects me the next day. I find that coffee makes this harder to determine, as I'll still feel alert that next day, just as if I had better sleep, but I'll be less productive overall in all the ways you mentioned. I can still think coherently, but I appear to be able to do so about the same thing for a much shorter period before being distracted with something else. > As I have come to understand this impact, it has given me greater empathy for addicts. My brain doesn't feel like a tired muscle, or like I'm doing anything wrong in the moment. That's a very astute observation. I've noticed before that more sleep makes me more productive, yet there's always that allure to staying up a bit later and reading a little bit more in the book I'm reading (which is almost always the problem), or watching a little bit more, etc. Like an addiction (I assume), the path from non-problematic behavior to problematic behavior is somewhat gradual, and noticing the problem is somewhat impaired by the negative effects of the problem itself. I don't set out to sleep very little, it just gradually gets worse where I'm skimping on sleep more and more often, until it's fairly consistent, and then I eventually notice and break out of it. Then the cycle repeats, but I generally spend far more time with little sleep than adequate sleep overall.

testnew2 6y ago

I’ve been under sleeping and I play a lot of games. Poker, go, call of duty war zone. My performance in all of them suffers. I actually don’t allow myself to play poker anymore unless I have two nights of full rest.

asdff 6y ago

That's early phase sleep deprivation for me. Distinct from late phase, where I'll forget a sentence the second I hear the next one. Just completely shot short term memory until I find time to sleep for 10 hours, sometimes a few days later. Comes around the day after a deadline.

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago

> The weird thing is that it doesn't feel like I can't keep going... it's just that I sort of somehow don't keep going Sounds a lot like an unfalsifiable hypothesis. Which means it can simply be a question of your perception of a phenomenon, not an objective truth of it.

aerique 6y ago

I have experienced something similar after I've been ill. For example, day 1 and 2 I'm just doing my work and don't feel ill yet, then day 3 I get ill and have to stay home from work. Afterwards I notice that my work from day 1 and 2 is way below average and can more or less be discarded, while I did not notice this at the time.