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> I worry the most about Scooters and AV as those are arguably core to urban mobility Scooters are a fad that was never needed. Bikes or mopeds like Revel are

> I worry the most about Scooters and AV as those are arguably core to urban mobility Scooters are a fad that was never needed. Bikes or mopeds like Revel are 10 times more useful. I don't think scooters replace anything of note, since you can pretty much walk the same distance. They're only fun for tourists and left in the sidewalk for everyone else to stumble over.

ping_pong 6y ago
I disagree wholeheartedly. Electric scooters are fun and useful, especially for commuting in the morning from a drop off location like a train station. The real question is whether or not it can be profitable, which I highly doubt. I would rather just get my own if I needed it.
- neaden 6y ago
  I think scooters are very area dependent. Both because of weather, and the supporting infrastructure.
- mcculley 6y ago
  I live in downtown Orlando. Lime, Lynx, and Bird have littered downtown with scooters. I run almost every day and they are often left directly in the middle of the sidewalk, either upright or fallen over. A couple months ago I began relocating any rental equipment I find in my way on the sidewalk. I am not at all gentle about this and I'm sure I have damaged some of the equipment. I like the idea that people might use these more than cars, but investors need to figure out a better way to store them than in the sidewalk.
  - ac29 6y ago
    I get the anger about sidewalks getting littered with scooters, but damaging or destroying them is just creating more hazardous e-waste to be disposed of.
    - mcculley 6y ago
      Where do you live? Maybe I can put them in front of your house.
    - mcculley 6y ago
      I'm not really angry. I consider it a public service for the people who come along after me. These things are a hazard for runners.
    - jmchuster 6y ago
      Tell that to the homeless guy in SF who made it his life mission to push scooters into the bay. They even had to make a line item just for him.
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      There needs to be a more sustainable model for scooter rentals than "when the scooter breaks, we just throw it out and replace it with another $20 white label scooter from China" The reason they're treated like trash, by both the company that put them there and by pedestrians, is because that is what they are.
- three_seagrass 6y ago
  True, but that still makes them a market fad. Even if you got cities on board, the costs are fairly fixed, so while the scooters are fun, it was never a feasible business at scale.
- gerash 6y ago
  The problem with electric scooters is even though they're nice in urban areas, they're a best-effort service. You can't rely on them to be somewhere by a specific time as they could either be unavailable around you, too far or the one you end up walking to could happen to be broken. I think the rental bikes which have a fixed docking station are a better design.
iamricks 6y ago
I use scooters to commute daily, Revel is more dangerous IMO, i have seen a few of them totaled since they came to Miami. Scooters are the least hassle for me.
georgeecollins 6y ago
Scooters seem very viable in parts of Los Angeles. Before covid people were using them a lot. It is true that mopeds/ bikes are more functional. But there is something about a scooter where you just stand on it and it is very pleasant, vs something you sit on and feel like maybe you should have a helmet. Anecdotally, I saw scooters used a lot more than bikes in Century City, when both were available.
jeremy_k 6y ago
I would argue this isn't true. I lived in Santa Monica when the scooters came about and once they removed the helmet law I loved the utility they provided. I lived about 2 miles away from downtown Santa Monica, which is totally walkable and I love walking, but sometimes I wanted to meet up with someone in a more reasonable amount of time. Instead of having to order an Uber for such a short trip, I would check Bird or the Lyft scooters to find one close to me, jump on it, and be downtown in roughly 10 minutes. And they're fun to ride! Now Santa Monica does have a great bike share infrastructure that I also used quite a bit, but nothing is more frustrating that getting on a well used bike and having the brakes hardly work or the crank constantly slipping as you push the pedal downward. Don't get me wrong, you can totally get a bad scooter that isn't running well, but I think I ran into more worn down bikes, likely due to the bike program having been around longer. My 2 cents, the more options the better. EDIT: Also wanted to note, Santa Monica has a lot of bike lanes, which made riding the scooters around much easier and safer from my perspective.
- JPKab 6y ago
  Not wearing a helmet on a device whose front wheel is a fulcrum of a lever that can smash your head on the pavement at a moment's notice is monumentally reckless. The helmetless riders are a real issue. And the injuries caused by the morons using them are a business model externality that isn't dealt with.
novok 6y ago
The scooter division was bikes & scooters
OctopusSandwich 6y ago
Scooters are heaven sent.
adrianmonk 6y ago
> you can pretty much walk the same distance I think I'm the intended use case because I live about 2 miles (3.2km) from an entertainment district. I can walk it, and I have done so, but it takes quite a while, around 45 minutes. On a scooter it takes like 10. Because of parking costs, scooter is cheaper than driving. It might even be faster. I own a bike, so I could ride that, but I don't like parking it in a busy downtown area. There's also a bus I can take, and sometimes I take bus one direction and scooter the other if the bus schedule doesn't work for me. I admit many people park scooters in a very inconsiderate way, but I always park carefully out of the way, so I don't feel bad about that personally.
- swiley 6y ago
  Not only that but 2 miles is a long walk to do often if you’re not very careful about it, especially if you’re carrying much. I’m 100% for walking places but it’s important to have options once you start getting out that far.
MivLives 6y ago
I always wondered how the scooter fad was going to work out once people realized they could just buy them for a few hundred bucks. Bicycles are hard to store for apartment dwellers, and more at risk of being stolen when locked up. I live in a city that banned the companies but see a few people still commuting on them in the bike lane.
Pxtl 6y ago
The bikeshare system in my city is provided by Uber. They're mostly focused on the scooters now (or, well, yesterday) but many cities have bikeshare systems backed by Uber.

ping_pong 6y ago

I disagree wholeheartedly. Electric scooters are fun and useful, especially for commuting in the morning from a drop off location like a train station. The real question is whether or not it can be profitable, which I highly doubt. I would rather just get my own if I needed it.

neaden 6y ago
I think scooters are very area dependent. Both because of weather, and the supporting infrastructure.
mcculley 6y ago
I live in downtown Orlando. Lime, Lynx, and Bird have littered downtown with scooters. I run almost every day and they are often left directly in the middle of the sidewalk, either upright or fallen over. A couple months ago I began relocating any rental equipment I find in my way on the sidewalk. I am not at all gentle about this and I'm sure I have damaged some of the equipment. I like the idea that people might use these more than cars, but investors need to figure out a better way to store them than in the sidewalk.
- ac29 6y ago
  I get the anger about sidewalks getting littered with scooters, but damaging or destroying them is just creating more hazardous e-waste to be disposed of.
  - mcculley 6y ago
    Where do you live? Maybe I can put them in front of your house.
  - mcculley 6y ago
    I'm not really angry. I consider it a public service for the people who come along after me. These things are a hazard for runners.
  - jmchuster 6y ago
    Tell that to the homeless guy in SF who made it his life mission to push scooters into the bay. They even had to make a line item just for him.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    There needs to be a more sustainable model for scooter rentals than "when the scooter breaks, we just throw it out and replace it with another $20 white label scooter from China" The reason they're treated like trash, by both the company that put them there and by pedestrians, is because that is what they are.
three_seagrass 6y ago
True, but that still makes them a market fad. Even if you got cities on board, the costs are fairly fixed, so while the scooters are fun, it was never a feasible business at scale.
gerash 6y ago
The problem with electric scooters is even though they're nice in urban areas, they're a best-effort service. You can't rely on them to be somewhere by a specific time as they could either be unavailable around you, too far or the one you end up walking to could happen to be broken. I think the rental bikes which have a fixed docking station are a better design.

iamricks 6y ago

I use scooters to commute daily, Revel is more dangerous IMO, i have seen a few of them totaled since they came to Miami. Scooters are the least hassle for me.

georgeecollins 6y ago

Scooters seem very viable in parts of Los Angeles. Before covid people were using them a lot. It is true that mopeds/ bikes are more functional. But there is something about a scooter where you just stand on it and it is very pleasant, vs something you sit on and feel like maybe you should have a helmet. Anecdotally, I saw scooters used a lot more than bikes in Century City, when both were available.

jeremy_k 6y ago

I would argue this isn't true. I lived in Santa Monica when the scooters came about and once they removed the helmet law I loved the utility they provided. I lived about 2 miles away from downtown Santa Monica, which is totally walkable and I love walking, but sometimes I wanted to meet up with someone in a more reasonable amount of time. Instead of having to order an Uber for such a short trip, I would check Bird or the Lyft scooters to find one close to me, jump on it, and be downtown in roughly 10 minutes. And they're fun to ride! Now Santa Monica does have a great bike share infrastructure that I also used quite a bit, but nothing is more frustrating that getting on a well used bike and having the brakes hardly work or the crank constantly slipping as you push the pedal downward. Don't get me wrong, you can totally get a bad scooter that isn't running well, but I think I ran into more worn down bikes, likely due to the bike program having been around longer. My 2 cents, the more options the better. EDIT: Also wanted to note, Santa Monica has a lot of bike lanes, which made riding the scooters around much easier and safer from my perspective.

JPKab 6y ago
Not wearing a helmet on a device whose front wheel is a fulcrum of a lever that can smash your head on the pavement at a moment's notice is monumentally reckless. The helmetless riders are a real issue. And the injuries caused by the morons using them are a business model externality that isn't dealt with.

novok 6y ago

The scooter division was bikes & scooters

OctopusSandwich 6y ago

Scooters are heaven sent.

adrianmonk 6y ago

> you can pretty much walk the same distance I think I'm the intended use case because I live about 2 miles (3.2km) from an entertainment district. I can walk it, and I have done so, but it takes quite a while, around 45 minutes. On a scooter it takes like 10. Because of parking costs, scooter is cheaper than driving. It might even be faster. I own a bike, so I could ride that, but I don't like parking it in a busy downtown area. There's also a bus I can take, and sometimes I take bus one direction and scooter the other if the bus schedule doesn't work for me. I admit many people park scooters in a very inconsiderate way, but I always park carefully out of the way, so I don't feel bad about that personally.

swiley 6y ago
Not only that but 2 miles is a long walk to do often if you’re not very careful about it, especially if you’re carrying much. I’m 100% for walking places but it’s important to have options once you start getting out that far.

MivLives 6y ago

I always wondered how the scooter fad was going to work out once people realized they could just buy them for a few hundred bucks. Bicycles are hard to store for apartment dwellers, and more at risk of being stolen when locked up. I live in a city that banned the companies but see a few people still commuting on them in the bike lane.

Pxtl 6y ago

The bikeshare system in my city is provided by Uber. They're mostly focused on the scooters now (or, well, yesterday) but many cities have bikeshare systems backed by Uber.