6 ms·

We pay devs worse because software is a complete aftertought, and the guys who produce it therefore are not seen as adding much value, if any. Meanwhile, the "s

We pay devs worse because software is a complete aftertought, and the guys who produce it therefore are not seen as adding much value, if any. Meanwhile, the "software is eating the world" memo is almost 10 years old yet nobody this side of the pond got it. Fix this mindset (good luck!), which is the real issue, and dev wages will correct themselves too.

pjmlp 6y ago
I never felt I was earning worse than on US, while enjoying my 30 days vacations, home office, unemployment support, health insurance and having a privileged life above many of my friends in "regular" (non-IT related) jobs.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  In which country is 30 days standard vacation?
  - ratww 6y ago
    In Germany the minimum is 20 days but pretty much everyone I know has either 25 or 30. Plus 10 bank holidays of course.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    I have experience across Germany, Switzerland, France, Greece. It is not the legal minimum, usually around 22, but you can easily negotiate it. Back home, in Portugal, 25 days. Ah, and if manage a position at a research institute like CERN, you can up it to 45, because usually they close around Christmas and it doesn't count for vacations.
  - goeirhgdlk 6y ago
    Probably all of the EU. There's usually 23+ days of holiday and another ~8 of bank (national) holiday. In the UK I have 25 days of holiday and the 8 bank holidays.
- shankr 6y ago
  30 day vacations aren't the norm in most of the places. Everything else is offered in IT jobs in US plus double the average European salary.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Everything else is lost in US with immediate job termination, no thanks. You can get those 30 pretty much everywhere, either by negotiating it, or taking advantage of the multiple holidays that we enjoy across Europe. And as I mentioned, I don't have any complains regarding salary. There is more in life than being rich.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      Nobody is talking about being rich but if you look at house prices in the major European metro areas or tech hubs, they're out of reach even for devs while that's not the case in the US.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Yet most people get to buy houses just with one credit instead of the multiple morgages in US.
        ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        Really? Who? A house near a big city in Germany is over a million and city apartment over half a million. How many devs can afford that even with a credit?
        pjmlp 6y ago
        By having a 30 year long credit and not going over the roof with their choices. Meanwhile as described by Lehman brothers fiasco documentaries, multiple American families went totally bankrupt with their multiple mortgages over their houses.
- vikramkr 6y ago
  I dont think it's that level of job that determines which economy became dominant. The US had policies friendly towards huge capitalist projects and funding that allowed for companies like facebook and google to form in the first place and reward immensely the people that took the risks to make that happen. You get as a result huge wealth inequality, but also huge concentration of international power since that's what you incentivized from the beginning. For the average worker its probably better to be in a country with worker protections, lower inequality, less concentrated power, etc. But that same system doesnt lend itself to creating multinational dominant corporations as powerful as many nation states
- gruturo 6y ago
  In the US, so many jobs, in so many industries, pay a complete pittance. It's one of the least regulated economies and people are seen as a fungible asset, hired, laid off at a company's convenience (in many states), and paid literally as little as possible. And yet, in this bizarro (for Europeans) world, devs are often paid a small fortune. That's not generosity. That's because they are recognized as bringing huge value, otherwise they would never be offered anywhere near those amounts of money. Europe just won't get it, therefore Europe is going to remain behind.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    I guess those American game developers enjoy selling their games written with help of Unity and CryEngine. While many Americans also enjoy having their messages carried forward with help of Erlang.
benhurmarcel 6y ago
The salary difference between US and Europe is similar for devs and other jobs like engineering. It’s not unique to software.

pjmlp 6y ago

I never felt I was earning worse than on US, while enjoying my 30 days vacations, home office, unemployment support, health insurance and having a privileged life above many of my friends in "regular" (non-IT related) jobs.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
In which country is 30 days standard vacation?
- ratww 6y ago
  In Germany the minimum is 20 days but pretty much everyone I know has either 25 or 30. Plus 10 bank holidays of course.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  I have experience across Germany, Switzerland, France, Greece. It is not the legal minimum, usually around 22, but you can easily negotiate it. Back home, in Portugal, 25 days. Ah, and if manage a position at a research institute like CERN, you can up it to 45, because usually they close around Christmas and it doesn't count for vacations.
- goeirhgdlk 6y ago
  Probably all of the EU. There's usually 23+ days of holiday and another ~8 of bank (national) holiday. In the UK I have 25 days of holiday and the 8 bank holidays.
shankr 6y ago
30 day vacations aren't the norm in most of the places. Everything else is offered in IT jobs in US plus double the average European salary.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Everything else is lost in US with immediate job termination, no thanks. You can get those 30 pretty much everywhere, either by negotiating it, or taking advantage of the multiple holidays that we enjoy across Europe. And as I mentioned, I don't have any complains regarding salary. There is more in life than being rich.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Nobody is talking about being rich but if you look at house prices in the major European metro areas or tech hubs, they're out of reach even for devs while that's not the case in the US.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Yet most people get to buy houses just with one credit instead of the multiple morgages in US.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        Really? Who? A house near a big city in Germany is over a million and city apartment over half a million. How many devs can afford that even with a credit?
        pjmlp 6y ago
        By having a 30 year long credit and not going over the roof with their choices. Meanwhile as described by Lehman brothers fiasco documentaries, multiple American families went totally bankrupt with their multiple mortgages over their houses.
vikramkr 6y ago
I dont think it's that level of job that determines which economy became dominant. The US had policies friendly towards huge capitalist projects and funding that allowed for companies like facebook and google to form in the first place and reward immensely the people that took the risks to make that happen. You get as a result huge wealth inequality, but also huge concentration of international power since that's what you incentivized from the beginning. For the average worker its probably better to be in a country with worker protections, lower inequality, less concentrated power, etc. But that same system doesnt lend itself to creating multinational dominant corporations as powerful as many nation states
gruturo 6y ago
In the US, so many jobs, in so many industries, pay a complete pittance. It's one of the least regulated economies and people are seen as a fungible asset, hired, laid off at a company's convenience (in many states), and paid literally as little as possible. And yet, in this bizarro (for Europeans) world, devs are often paid a small fortune. That's not generosity. That's because they are recognized as bringing huge value, otherwise they would never be offered anywhere near those amounts of money. Europe just won't get it, therefore Europe is going to remain behind.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  I guess those American game developers enjoy selling their games written with help of Unity and CryEngine. While many Americans also enjoy having their messages carried forward with help of Erlang.

benhurmarcel 6y ago

The salary difference between US and Europe is similar for devs and other jobs like engineering. It’s not unique to software.