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If health care workers can't avoid getting themselves infected, even though they have expertise and training, there is no way that Tesla will be able to prevent
by jennyyang 6y ago
If health care workers can't avoid getting themselves infected, even though they have expertise and training, there is no way that Tesla will be able to prevent the virus from spreading within the factory. It's a ticking time bomb at this point, just like the meat packing plants and the other factories that have spread the disease. Once a single person with COVID-19 comes into the Tesla plant, it's guaranteed to spread like wildfire. Things like social distancing is merely a tactic to slow the spread down, but it won't actually help you if someone 6 ft from you has COVID-19 and is breathing vigorously or is eating lunch 6 ft from you.
If Musk isn't right there on the factory line among the workers and endangering his life along with the workers that he is forcing to come work for him, then I will lose a tremendous amount of respect for him. If anything, this should be a good opportunity for the factory workers to unionize and demand better treatment.
- duaoebg 6y agoIt is weird to me to see people treating the 6ft like a hard barrier rather than a probabilistic guideline.
- dsfyu404ed 6y agoPeople don't understand the underlying mechanisms and assumptions that lead to the rule of thumb being what it is so they follow the rule of thumb religiously as if it guarantees everything will turn out alright. If you look you'll see this behavior across a wide range of issues.
- duxup 6y agoAlmost any societal level health policy, about breast cancer screening, colonoscopy recommendations, or whatever... people misunderstand all the time and announce "well that's because it's not effective under X circumstance". It's always hard to explain, and then after explaining the probability stuff ... you get to explain that it is the probability ... that we know of. For anyone who wants hard facts on COVID-19... science will tell us in 2 or 3 years I suspect.
- alexandros 6y agoTesla has run a factory in Shanghai post-COVID, so far as we know successfully. Also most if not all the other car factories in the US are already operating. Also workers aren't forced to come in. This focus on Tesla is not taking into account all the data equally, unless folks are also outraged at every other factory in the US.
- gamblor956 6y agoMultiple reports indicate that Tesla workers were told to report to work last week or be fired, and that if they were fired for not showing up, Tesla would not let them claim COVID19 as a reason for their termination (which is a $600/week difference in unemployment benefits for the next 6 weeks). There was no outrage about other factories because most US factories use more automation than Tesla and workers are generally spaced more than 6 feet apart at "stations" on the assembly line. (See, e.g., the General Mills factories where cereal is made, any other US automaker, etc.)
- natch 6y ago>Tesla said employees were told to report to work or be fired. Bullshit. You are confusing different activities that involve not getting paid. Not showing up for work, the person doesn't get paid, and contrary to your claim (there are no such "multiple reports" unless you are counting reddit comments?) Tesla is being nice and not firing them, but instead putting them on unpaid leave so their job is actually held open for a while. Not even the same ballpark as fired. Yes there are consequences for unemployment since their job is available to them should they want to do it. This is by law, not Tesla's doing. They aren't terminated by the way… another word for fired… just on unpaid leave, again. >workers are generally spaced more than 6 feet apart That's also the case at the Fremont factory.
- javagram 6y ago> Yes there are consequences for unemployment since their job is available to them should they want to do it. This is by law, not Tesla's doing Except it was illegal for Tesla to be opening up early against health department orders, so it seems likely that the law would actually be on the employee’s side. Terminating an employee for refusing to violate lawful government orders is illegal. Of course, non-unionized factory workers at Tesla may very well not have a lawyer on retainer to consult about this and might feel forced by Tesla’s unlawful threat to go in anyway...
- m0zg 6y agoHe's not "forcing" anyone to come in IIRC. Workers can remain furloughed if they'd like. It's just that out in the real world, people need to work in order to survive.
- mikeyouse 6y ago"Come in or lose your unemployment benefits" isn't a choice in any sense of the word. It's a shame we've done so poorly at managing this virus and have provided so little support for people who choose to prioritize their health.
- m0zg 6y agoBe that as it may, the fundamental fact of the situation is that money does not grow on trees and unemployment benefits don't really work if you have double digit percentage of the unemployed. It especially doesn't work if, by closing the factory, you're putting all of its supply chain out of work as well. Also, in order for there to be stuff, someone has to make stuff.
- mikeyouse 6y agoSadly, this is a uniquely American failing. If you can't provide supports for people during a once-in-a-generation pandemic but have no problem taking out $20 Trillion in debt during normal times, things are seriously broken.
- m0zg 6y agoI think you will soon discover that it's not a "uniquely American failing", but a fact of life that applies everywhere. I don't see how it's even up for debate that you can't stop the economy for six months and avoid severe repercussions, including deaths, for years to come, and that the government can't just will the stuff (food, goods) into existence with no work required from the population.
- 6y ago
- AlchemistCamp 6y agoWhy are you so sure? They're using the same protocols they did for the Shanghai gigafactory.
- almost_usual 6y agoThe repercussions for not following protocol in Shanghai is probably a bit different than Alameda County..
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoWhat's your alternative proposal? I'm optimistic Tesla can manage it, but I'm not sure what it implies if they can't - do you think we should just keep factories closed forever?
- skuhn 6y agoThey should keep factories closed, unless they are engaged in solving one of the four problems that need to be solved in order for things to safely re-open: 1. Producing masks, gloves, face shields 2. Producing tests or test supplies (cotton swabs, reagents, etc.) 3. Things related to contact tracing (not sure what material goods this would need off-hand) 4. Vaccine research (again, nothing they could do) The choice is not between re-open now or never re-open. If we actually had at least the first 3 things above, re-opening could be done in a controlled and safe manner. We still don't have those things, months later.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoAlameda County says it has those things.
- pmiller2 6y agoThere are more places than Alameda County that need those things.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoCertainly true! I hope those places get what they need soon. But if Alameda County can safely start reopening before them, I don't see any value in waiting.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- pmiller2 6y ago
- TMWNN 6y agoAs alexandros said, there is nothing special about the Tesla factory operating as opposed to any other company's. The only difference is that Alameda County opposed the factory reopening. Not the city of Fremont, not the state of California, not the federal government. It was the county that held its reopening up.
- new_realist 6y agoThe county didn’t oppose a reopening; if anything, Tesla is being given more favorable treatment because they are a big employer, to the point where the county is turning a blind eye to willful flouting of the law. The state gave discretion to the county and the county was enforcing a standard that Elon didn’t want to follow, or else wanted to stage a scene to justify his inevitable relocation to a state with cheaper labor. Now we’re back to the original county schedule.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y agoTesla, being designated critical infrastructure like all vehicle manufactures per federal guidelines, should have never had to battle it out with county bureaucracy in the first place.
- Talanes 6y ago"CISA's Identifying Critical Infrastructure During COVID-19 guidance and accompanying list are intended to support state, local, and industry partners in identifying the critical infrastructure sectors and the essential workers." Not even recommended guidance, just advisory. AKA "Here's a one size fits all list we expect you to tailor to your particular situation."
- javagram 6y agoPlenty of other car manufacturers were shut down too - Ford, GM, Toyota, basically all of Tesla’s competitors as I understand it across different states not just in California. For instance, here is a story about a Toyota plant in Texas being closed between March and May. https://www.expressnews.com/business/article/Toyota-again-pushes-back-plant-reopening-15235161.php https://www.expressnews.com/business/article/Toyota-again-pu... Never mind that “federal guidelines” have no legal relevance to county or state health orders. The US constitution leaves police power, including quarantine orders, to the discretion of the states.
- koolba 6y ago> If health care workers can't avoid getting themselves infected, even though they have expertise and training, there is no way that Tesla will be able to prevent the virus from spreading within the factory. Health workers are literally hands on infected people coughing in their face. They also have infected people literally delivered to them. It’s apples and oranges.
- new_realist 6y agoHealth care workers are also trained to avoid infection, wash and sterilize every few minutes, and are covered head-to-toe in protective equipment.
- Retric 6y agoMedical workers are generally using basic protection well, but their not walking around in BSL-4 bunny suits. Such methods might be 99% effective, but encounter 10,000x as many viruses and the risks are still significantly worse.
- malwarebytess 6y agoThe objective probably isn't to stop all infections. It's not possible. You act as if this is some kind of a death sentence virus, when in fact for the vast majority of people it isn't a serious illness.
- rgbrenner 6y agoIMO there's a lot to dislike about Elons handling of this.. but the conditions are different than a meat packing plant. This is a meat packing plant: https://postmediacalgaryherald2.files.wordpress.com/2020/03/cal0729-jbsplant-copy.jpg https://postmediacalgaryherald2.files.wordpress.com/2020/03/... Shoulder to shoulder all day long. Those are their stations for their entire shift. Notice also: no masks. And because they've been deemed a critical industry, they aren't necessarily getting masks now either. So no distancing, and no masks. These are also very poorly paid jobs, and it would be unusual if they had health insurance or paid time off. It's pretty much the perfect conditions for covid. Cars tend to be a bit bigger than chickens.. so in a car factory, the workers are usually more than 6 ft apart.
- m463 6y agoI wonder what the realities of the tesla factories are. I've considered taking a tour. All the images I've seen are dominated by large robotic arms with people sparsely sprinkled throughout.
- dannyw 6y agoThe reality is that the coronavirus isn't going away. We need to minimise the risk, i.e. slow the spread down; that's why we do social distancing. Every day and every part of life, we balance safety with living life. Public health is no different: it is a balance, not an extremist view that we must eradicate COVID at all costs. We cannot shut down non-essential until there's a vaccine. That's just not possible. All work is essential, and public governments can't print money forever (without hyperinflation).
- cma 6y agoAll work is not essential.